Hitting vs. Swinging - differences a bit overblown???

[robertrex]

Hoping for a little discussion on this matter. I'm getting better under the instruction of an AI and with study of the book. Here's my personal/ novice observation about TGM talk. People seem to overblow the difference between Hitting and Swinging.

From 12-1-0 and 12-2-0
Components that are the same for both:
1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,12,13,14,15,16,17,24

Components that are different:
3,10,11,18,19,20,21,22,23

A couple very interesting components that are the same that I often see people try to make distinguishing components are #12 - pivot and #6 - Plane Angle.

I'm playing much better golf and understanding my swing better. I don't know for sure if I'm hitting or swinging, and I don't care. Remember, there are more similarities than there are differences.

[bray]

robertrex,

It will be interesting to see how your above list changes when the seventh edition comes out here shortly.

I believe a lot of the instructor's that post on this site have the seventh edition notes and use them, because there are more differences between hitting and swinging.

Sorting Through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

[Yoda]

People seem to overblow the difference between Hitting and Swinging.

From 12-1-0 and 12-2-0
Components that are the same for both:
1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,12,13,14,15,16,17,24

Components that are different:
3,10,11,18,19,20,21,22,23

Most especially, Component #4 (Accumulator Combinations) is also different. Even though both Patterns are Triple Barrel Strokes, Hitters use Power Accumulators 1/2/3 and Swingers use 2/3/4. And at bottom, this is the essential difference between the two: Power Accumulator #1 (the Right Elbow) is active in Hitting and passive in Swinging.

Regarding the Pivot, both Hitters and Swingers use the Standard Pivot, i.e., they move freely in both directions (assuming a Square Stance). This also includes the Geometry of Right Shoulder Motion (a Backstroke Turn to the Plane and a Downstroke Turn on the Plane). However, after using the Pivot to overcome the initial Inertia of the Lagging Clubhead in the Start Down, the Physics of Right Shoulder Action differs markedly between the two. The Hitter uses the Right Shoulder as a Backstop -- the "equal and opposite" reaction -- for his driving Right Arm. In contrast, the Swinger uses the Right Shoulder as a Rotor -- Body Momentum Transfer -- for his Swinging Left Arm.

These differentiations are not "overblown." Instead, they are defining. In the words of Homer Kelley:

"The 'mystery' of the Mechanics of Golf fades away when Right Arm participation is understood."

[Delaware Golf]

Most especially, Component #4 (Accumulator Combinations) is also different. Even though both Patterns are Triple Barrel Strokes, Hitters use Power Accumulators 1/2/3 and Swingers use 2/3/4. And at bottom, this is the essential difference between the two: Power Accumulator #1 (the Right Elbow) is active in Hitting and passive in Swinging.

Regarding the Pivot, both Hitters and Swingers use the Standard Pivot, i.e., they move freely in both directions (assuming a Square Stance). This also includes the Geometry of Right Shoulder Motion (a Backstroke Turn to the Plane and a Downstroke Turn on the Plane). However, after using the Pivot to overcome the initial Inertia of the Lagging Clubhead in the Start Down, the Physics of Right Shoulder Action differs markedly between the two. The Hitter uses the Right Shoulder as a Backstop -- the "equal and opposite" reaction -- for his driving Right Arm. In contrast, the Swinger uses the Right Shoulder as a Rotor -- Body Momentum Transfer -- for his Swinging Left Arm.

These differentiations are not "overblown." Instead, they are defining. In the words of Homer Kelley:

"The 'mystery' of the Mechanics of Golf fades away when Right Arm participation is understood."

Yoda,

Can you please explain the success of Tomasello's swinging approach with right arm acceleration???

DG

[Rumbler]

Lately, have been practicing with left hand at side using right arm only with 7 iron. I get into little streaks where the ball goes about 2/3rds the normal 2 hand distance (very straight).

Yesterday doing this I began hitting pulls that had considerably more power.

In one of the above posts someone mentions hitting involves the right elbow, and I've noticed that I have to be careful not to overdue the one hand thing or tendonitis will set in.

So my question is if your using your right hand only, is it hitting or swinging or possibly one or the other or both together.

Also with a chronic left shoulder problem does it make more sense to go to hitting?
thanks

[Yoda]

Yoda,

Can you please explain the success of Tomasello's swinging approach with right arm acceleration???

DG,

You have classified Tom Tomasello's procedure as Right Arm Swing. Others have classified it as Left Arm Swing using the Magic of the Right Forearm per the Major Basic Stroke of 7-3. Tommy's no longer with us to declare an ultimate victor in this debate, so participants have no choice but to respect the opposing view and 'let the mystery be.'

That said, the success of either action is dependent upon the Club being Accelerated Longitudinally (PULLED lengthwise with either the Right Arm or the Left per 10-19-C). The difference lies in what is being Loaded and how -- the Right Elbow via the Right Triceps (Right Arm Swing) versus the Left Wrist via the Pivot (Left Arm Swing). The Right Arm Swinger gains Right Triceps Thrust but forfeits Body Momentum Transfer. For the Left Arm Swinger, the reverse is true.

Both procedures differ considerably from the Right Arm Hit. Here the Club is Accelerated Radially (PUSHED sidewise with the Right Arm per 10-19-A). As in the Right Arm Swing, however, the price paid for Right Arm Thrust is the forfeiture of Momentum Transfer.

[tongzilla]

Yoda,

Can you please explain the success of Tomasello's swinging approach with right arm acceleration???

Originally Posted by Yoda

DG, You have classified Tom Tomasello's procedure as Right Arm Swing. Others have classified it as Left Arm Swing using the Magic of the Right Forearm per the Major Basic Stroke of 7-3. Tommy's no longer with us to declare an ultimate victor in this debate, so participants have no choice but to respect the opposing view and 'let the mystery be.' That said, the success of either action is dependent upon the Club being Accelerated Longitudinally (PULLED lengthwise with either the Right Arm or the Left per 10-19-C). The difference lies in what is being Loaded and how -- the Right Elbow via the Right Triceps (Right Arm Swing) versus the Left Wrist via the Pivot (Left Arm Swing). Both procedures differ considerably from the Right Arm Hit wherein the Club is Accelerated Radially (PUSHED sidewise with the Right Arm per 10-19-A). As in the Right Arm Swing, however, the price paid for Right Arm Thrust is the forfeiture of Momentum Transfer.

This is as clear as it gets. Every once in a while, someone (not looking at anyone in particular) brings up the Tom Tomaseello/Right Arm Swing debate. I view the above as a final concluding post (concluding many other concluding posts Yoda and others have made on this subject), i.e. I really can't see anything of great significance that can be said and hasn't already been said in this debate.

I, for one, have learnt a substantial amount by participating in such discussions. It's time to give it a rest

[Delaware Golf]

This is as clear as it gets. Every once in a while, someone (not looking at anyone in particular) brings up the Tom Tomaseello/Right Arm Swing debate. I view the above as a final concluding post (concluding many other concluding posts Yoda and others have made on this subject), i.e. I really can't see anything of great significance that can be said and hasn't already been said in this debate.

I, for one, have learnt a substantial amount by participating in such discussions. It's time to give it a rest

Actually, if there are other Tomasello students who can add to the mystery!!! That would be great...

At this time, it would be interesting to hear from Jodie Mudd...a PGA Tour pro who studied with Tommy. Did he use this stroke procedure in his game...I have video of two swings of Jodie from an ESPN special on the 1991 U.S Open, Jodie's swing looks exactly like Tommy's swing but with a wide arc snap loading backstroke. The action of the swing and the finish look exactly like Tom Tomasello.

Remember, you don't have to read the posts...

DG

[Delaware Golf]

DG,

You have classified Tom Tomasello's procedure as Right Arm Swing. Others have classified it as Left Arm Swing using the Magic of the Right Forearm per the Major Basic Stroke of 7-3. Tommy's no longer with us to declare an ultimate victor in this debate, so participants have no choice but to respect the opposing view and 'let the mystery be.'

That said, the success of either action is dependent upon the Club being Accelerated Longitudinally (PULLED lengthwise with either the Right Arm or the Left per 10-19-C). The difference lies in what is being Loaded and how -- the Right Elbow via the Right Triceps (Right Arm Swing) versus the Left Wrist via the Pivot (Left Arm Swing). The Right Arm Swinger gains Right Triceps Thrust but forfeits Body Momentum Transfer. For the Left Arm Swinger, the reverse is true.

Both procedures differ considerably from the Right Arm Hit. Here the Club is Accelerated Radially (PUSHED sidewise with the Right Arm per 10-19-A). As in the Right Arm Swing, however, the price paid for Right Arm Thrust is the forfeiture of Momentum Transfer.

Yoda,

The Right Arm Swing is the only logical choice to describe what Tommy taught...right arm acceleration...accelerated Longitudinally. I know I don't have tell you to see 7-19...for those that don't know and are new to the forum..also see 10-11-0-1 and 10-11-0-3.

DG

[robertrex]

Most especially, Component #4 (Accumulator Combinations) is also different. Even though both Patterns are Triple Barrel Strokes, Hitters use Power Accumulators 1/2/3 and Swingers use 2/3/4. And at bottom, this is the essential difference between the two: Power Accumulator #1 (the Right Elbow) is active in Hitting and passive in Swinging.

Regarding the Pivot, both Hitters and Swingers use the Standard Pivot, i.e., they move freely in both directions (assuming a Square Stance). This also includes the Geometry of Right Shoulder Motion (a Backstroke Turn to the Plane and a Downstroke Turn on the Plane). However, after using the Pivot to overcome the initial Inertia of the Lagging Clubhead in the Start Down, the Physics of Right Shoulder Action differs markedly between the two. The Hitter uses the Right Shoulder as a Backstop -- the "equal and opposite" reaction -- for his driving Right Arm. In contrast, the Swinger uses the Right Shoulder as a Rotor -- Body Momentum Transfer -- for his Swinging Left Arm.

These differentiations are not "overblown." Instead, they are defining. In the words of Homer Kelley:

"The 'mystery' of the Mechanics of Golf fades away when Right Arm participation is understood."

Thanks Yoda - I really like the lack of mystery portion. I guess my frustration is when people call this or that golfer a hitter or a swinger. For instance, I've see people refer to Moe Norman's swing as hitting. Watching Moe on video - his words to describe what he did show me he was a swinger with zero power accumulator #3. This is just one example of people saying any odd looking swing is hitting. To me, appropriately executed hitting doesn't look odd at all. It doesn't look out of rhythm/ choppy either. It looks fairly "normal", and the differences between hitting and swinging are not primarily in "looks" - at least not in what largely untrained persons see.

I'm sure you hear it more than I do at the various boards I frequent - "That guy's oviously a hitter. She's obviously a swinger." Would you say that most people who make these statements are at best working with limited information when they make these statements?

Here's to more precision and continued progress.