Sorry if this analysis bugs anyone, I'm just trying to understand why Tomasello's teaching was different...why he took the teaching/playing path he took...in the 1991 interview, Tommy seems pretty committed to the idea of using the right arm for swinging and I'm not talking about leading with the hips and using the right arm for thrust at release...
I believe one of the reasons Tomasello's teaching approach is different from the other AI's is....it appears that Tommy had been teaching from the 7th edition (notes) since Homer's passing. The other AI's were working from editions 1 through 6 or just the 6th (just a theory based the information I have). I'm under the impression that Tom had a copy of Homer's final notes then (1983) and was going to put together the 7th edition. To make the Tomasello connection, read the 7th edition's 10-3-K and 10-3-D...then read the paragraph at the top of 12-5-3...then watch Tomasello's "Chapter 5 on Power" from the Australia chapter series. If I'm wrong, then what does Homer mean in 12-5-3 in the last sentence where he says..."This stage is for the perfection of execution prior to Full Power". Prior to Full Power...what component change and/or addition takes place that takes one to FULL POWER. I believe Tomasello explains it in the Power video (from less than full power to FULL POWER) and the addition is in 10-3-K and 10-3-D...Tomasello taught it that way...I believe it is the true Blue Print for TGM and the 7th edition. It appears that Homer's book comes full circle as it was originally presented...a right arm approach to the game.
12-1-0 and 12-2-0 are less than full power patterns, a sort entrance way into TGM.
Then read the July 1991 Tomasello Golf Illustrated interview...
How could Tomasello be a GSED and come up with the comments like...."All that stuff about leading with downswing with a lateral move of the lower body, driving the hips and legs toward the target to retain power---it's all terribly wrong! It seems to be what's happening in the most efficient, centrifugal-force swing."
Then Tomasello goes on to say..."The only agility needed by the player is to be able to turn the hips--to pivot around a fixed point--and to lever and un-lever the right forearm. The faster you can make these two movements, the greater the centrifugal force you'll build up and the farther you'll hit the ball".
I believe in the July interview Tomasello went beyond 12-2-0/12-5-3 combination and presented the Full Power version!!! It wouldn't surprise me that Tomasello was working with Homer on the idea of Full Power up until Homer's passing.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 07-30-2006 at 12:34 AM.
Just recently on another forum I made a post, only to discover that it had taken on a life of its own and became its own thread. Of which there were few initially that agreed or even thought I knew anything of TGM. Well here I go again, guess banging my head against a concrete wall must feel good cause I keep doing it.
Why is it that everyone seems to think that Authorized Instructors of The Golfing Machine are teaching The Golfing Machine? What is there to teach? Where is this illusive G.O.L.F stroke of TGM that everyone seems to be in search of? Why is it that it is asked who on the tour has a TGM swing?
To be honest, this makes me wonder where Homer went wrong. I thought he was pretty clear on
a. What TGM was, a catalog of the 24 components of the golf stroke.
b. AIs were created to assist golfer in learning 'the golfer own golf stroke', not 'The Way'.
c. TGM in total was not somethine that the golfer needed to learn, but only the components for the golfer's golf stroke. It is the AI that needs to understand the components and there variations.
d. It seem to me that Homer subscribed to the theory that the latest version of TGM is what should be used, else why would he have published updates? Did some stuff get left on the floor, yeah, but between version how much of that stuff that dropped to the floor ever reappeared again? Evidently Homer didn't feel it was needed in most cases.
e. Why do people continue to say it is not about 'The Way' yet continue to look for the 'How To of the Golf Stroke'?
Now in all fairness, somewhere along the line Homer decided to assist the AIs, in chapter 12 he basically gave a currculum to be used as a basis for teaching as well as getting initial certification. He provide two sample patterns that addressed the two styles/types of golf storke, hitting and swinging. He identified components that were best suited to provide as I understand it an uncompensated golf stroke. There is a reference to the STAR SYSTEM TRIAD, a system ??; a method ??; which leads back to chapter 12.
News flash from the desk of Martee...
If you go to an AI and get taught TGM, then you no longer have a need to return to learn TGM. BUT you may need to return to learn 'Your Golf Stroke' if you havent been able to inform yourself, so that you understand it, so that you can excute it. Has the student become the Master? It would be extremely rare that getting taught TGM would be 100% match to either of the two sample patterns for a golfer unless that golfer was initially taught or learn that pattern.
Those who claim to teach TGM, I look to see if they are teaching golfers to get certified.
Those who base their teaching on the tenets of TGM, need not speak TGM to the student, they need only deliver sound golf instruction to the golfer. The effectiveness of insturction is another issue that defines the success the instructor and golfer will enjoy.
IMO, all thos GSEDs, GSEMs and GSEBs that instruct can choose to teach a method(s) that they have adopted and developed or they are merely applying their knowledge to make adjustments to the golfer's golf stroke. Does that mean they are Teaching TGM? IMO NO. Have they incorporated TGM into their knowledge/skills/practices to Teach golf, Yes.
Homer was hoping, expecting AI to take TGM and apply in practically and extend it throughout their instruction, thus the golfers getting the correct information, developing 'their own swing', not someone elses.
Regarding Tomasello's comments and approach, Doyles, etc. well those AIs are expressing themselves and what they believe and instruct...It just that they are not TEACHING TGM.
As usual, Martee, a very thoughtful post. Was the post you referred to made on FGI? I would be interested in reading the thread. I haven't been over there in a year or two.
The point of my post is to try and understand Tomasello's teaching approach and how it relates to the new info in the 7th edition. I don't want this tread to turn into a debate about AI teaching styles...I would like to see the new addition of the term FULL POWER and my question about the paragraph in 12-5-3 debated.
In Ben Doyle's foreward...in the second to Last paragraph Ben mentions "One of the Nation's most highly regarded teachers told me in 1973 that I was "ten years ahead us." My point is...by having the 7th edition notes did Tomasello have an insight to Homer's final analysis that others did not...by 1991 was Tomasello "eight years ahead us."
Golf Illustrated contacted Tom Tomasello to do an interview about TGM...I would have to believe GI contacted Tommy because he was getting good results with his students. Bottom line. Can we trace this to a 7th edition influence years before its release.
So, what's the problem with developing a MY WAY approach from TGM...there could be several excellent MY WAY programs developed from TGM...so WHAT. The bottom line is developing a set of compatable components per a hitting or swinging stroke pattern...
I believe Tomasello was developing a highly integrated approach that would allow a player to use both hitting and swinging and the three hinge actions easily to creatively generate any shot...both powerful long shots and the most creative short shots. To me that's TGM in a nutshell (Creative freedom on the golf course).
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 07-29-2006 at 10:00 PM.
First there is nothing wrong with an AI developing 'My Way', in fact that what to some extent is all about. It does still require an AI to recognize that you can fix a swing as well as re-engineer it.
Regarding 12-5-3, what is meant by 'Full Power'? Is this in reference to how much effort a golfer applies, (poor wording), use only 80% vs 100% or is it as you seem to elude too, max out the golf stroke with 4 barrel stroke vs a double barrel stroke to triple barrel stroke?
Homer was of the opinion and states so that a very acceptable game can obtained with a two barrel stroke.
As usual, Martee, a very thoughtful post. Was the post you referred to made on FGI? I would be interested in reading the thread. I haven't been over there in a year or two.
Nope not on FGI, it was another TGM related forum.
it was on brian manzella's site.....and martee, honestly,
you're debating semantics...and as usual on most of these sites - no ALL of these sites - the debate is circular and goes nowhere....
we all have read the preface to the book and have a general understanding of what mr. kelley was trying to accomplish.....now, does it really matter whether lynn, brian, or gregg mchatton are teaching the golfing machine or teaching their favorite patterns as learned from the golfing machine?
it's all semantics...it depends on each person's frame of reference and their TGM background....but in the end, is a student receiving instrution from an AI going to get better if this particular debate is settled? - i think not
i can sum up all the golfing machine forums, all the debates, all the agendas, all the motives, all the angst, all the infighting, all the backstabbing, and all the heartache by quoting TGM's foremost instrutor - Ben Doyle......
ME: "Ben, do you like so and so's (PGA TOUR PLAYER) swing?"
BEN: "Yes, of course."
ME: "Do you like this other so and so's (PGA TOUR PLAYER) swing?"
BEN: "I like them all."
it was on brian manzella's site.....and martee, honestly,
you're debating semantics...and as usual on most of these sites - no ALL of these sites - the debate is circular and goes nowhere....
we all have read the preface to the book and have a general understanding of what mr. kelley was trying to accomplish.....now, does it really matter whether lynn, brian, or gregg mchatton are teaching the golfing machine or teaching their favorite patterns as learned from the golfing machine?
it's all semantics...it depends on each person's frame of reference and their TGM background....but in the end, is a student receiving instrution from an AI going to get better if this particular debate is settled? - i think not
i can sum up all the golfing machine forums, all the debates, all the agendas, all the motives, all the angst, all the infighting, all the backstabbing, and all the heartache by quoting TGM's foremost instrutor - Ben Doyle......
ME: "Ben, do you like so and so's (PGA TOUR PLAYER) swing?"
BEN: "Yes, of course."
ME: "Do you like this other so and so's (PGA TOUR PLAYER) swing?"
BEN: "I like them all."
Like I said, I don't want this to become an AI debate...I would really like to see the debate on the new terminology in the 7th edition. Especially when we have a GSED using the terminology on video.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 07-30-2006 at 12:32 AM.
it was on brian manzella's site.....and martee, honestly,
you're debating semantics...and as usual on most of these sites - no ALL of these sites - the debate is circular and goes nowhere....
we all have read the preface to the book and have a general understanding of what mr. kelley was trying to accomplish.....now, does it really matter whether lynn, brian, or gregg mchatton are teaching the golfing machine or teaching their favorite patterns as learned from the golfing machine?
it's all semantics...it depends on each person's frame of reference and their TGM background....but in the end, is a student receiving instrution from an AI going to get better if this particular debate is settled? - i think not
i can sum up all the golfing machine forums, all the debates, all the agendas, all the motives, all the angst, all the infighting, all the backstabbing, and all the heartache by quoting TGM's foremost instrutor - Ben Doyle......
ME: "Ben, do you like so and so's (PGA TOUR PLAYER) swing?"
BEN: "Yes, of course."
ME: "Do you like this other so and so's (PGA TOUR PLAYER) swing?"
BEN: "I like them all."
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