LynnBlakeGolf Forums - the knees - another accumulator

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knee action and how it powers the pivot

I tried to change the name of the thread to keep the language as per HK. the knees are not considered an accumulator as per TGM so lets leave it at that. if HK wanted them there, he would have described them as such. I mean.. he had 6 editions, right?
Bernt - did I misread your post? the FACT is that they are above the waist. The point is that they deliver power to the levers.. Great post BTW.. and thanks to Bucket.

As per bucket's description, which matches the way someone else described it, the knees can facilitate power to the pivot, and as such, to pp4. Simple.. Easy.. Makes sense.

Would it be fair to say that the knees are a one of many segments that power the pivot? knees are independent of hips, which are independent of the ribcage/shoulders & chest.

ACC4 is described as the MASTER ACC, so I am wondering if it is the master due to the power source (it would be the start of the kinetic chain) or is it because it's the most inner part of the circle of the swing, and therefore has a major impact on the rest of the power package? (lots of meat in there....)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BerntR (Post 69382)

The point is not that they are above the waist. The point is that they deliver power to the levers.

Remember that in a swing, the pivot does basically all the work. A firm extensior action doesn't add work. It just enables better energy transfer from the pivot.

According to said above the pivot doesn't power the club solely through pp 4 either. There is a reason that the three other power accumulators are labeled accumulators and not something else, like power generators. While Homer to some extent chose to define his own terms, there are some very clear relationships towards textbook mechanics and mechanical engineering in TGM. And it is hardly a coincidence that he used the term "accumulator".

Very powerful swing stroks can be produced without engaging pp4, and the pivot basically generates all the power. I agree 95% with what 12 piece bucket wrote earlier. But his indication of pp4 as the only channel for transmission of pivot power is something I disagree with - if that's what he meant.

Homer's terminology works pretty well. And it works even better if one spends two minutes thinking about what an accumulator is, and what it does. An accumulator isn't a device that produces work. An accumulator is a device that stores energy and release it when it is called for. Big difference.

Energy generated by the pivot is accumulated as mass-velocity in the pivot. This mass-velocity, this energy is then released to the lever assembly. Through all the pressure points. By means of all the accumulators used. I don't think Homer would have used the term accumulator if he figured that only acc 4 had something to do with accumulation and release of power. Because it would be inconssistent terminology and because it would be wrong. Homer was a smart guy.

In a pure swing the right arm will work as a pure accumulator in the form of extensior action. Just contributing to the integrity of the flying wedges while the pivot with the big muscles does all the work. In a hitting stroke the right elbow will still be an accumulator but it will also do work on it's own. The active thrust. I doubt that any of the other accumulators do any significant amount of work of their own - unless a very special stroke is called for. The hands are basically monitors and passive clamps - and there isn't much pp4 can do alone either. What the four accumulators have in common is the ability to channel energy accumulated in the pivot towards impact.

I'm pretty sure we're on the same page . . . but how would power from the pivot be transfered from the pivot to the power package/lever assemblies in points other than pressure point #4? Would you say there are some points missed in the right arm? if we are restricting our discussion to the power package (arms hands club) as Mr. Kelley defined it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by slicer mcgolf (Post 69384)

For the sake of discussion . . . here is the power package and "triangle" defined by Mr. Kelley.

DEFINITION

6-0 GENERAL The Power Package concept isolates and defines the functions of the Hands and Arms in propelling the Clubhead into Impact. The Power Package consists of the Arms and the Club – as discussed herein – and includes the four Power Accumulators, the four Pressure Points, their Loading and the Clubhead Lag. There is no Stroke which does not include a Power Package Assembly and the five-step sequence of their operation – Accumulation, Load, Storage, Delivery and Release.

STRUCTURE

6-A-1 THE TRIANGLE ASSEMBLY The Power Package is basically a Triangle and this form puts it under the Law of the Triangle. The Straight Left Arm forms Side One, the Shoulders form the second Side and a line from the Right Shoulder to Hands forms the Third Side – whether the Right Arm is straight or bent. So the shape of the Triangle can be changed only by changing the length of the Third Side. Also, regarding Structure, study 6-B-1-D and 6-B-3-0-1.

So I reckon to use your term . . . it is above the waist . . .

Here's the stuff on #4 . . . I'd say it's master because the release sequence is always 4,1,2,3 regardless of the procedure used . . . so if 4 is loaded then it has to release or the others can't release.

RADIUS POWER

6-B-4-0 THE FORTH POWER ACCUMULATOR The angle formed by the Left Arm and Left Shoulder forms the Forth Power Accumulator. It is not only an independent Power Accumulator, but its Triggering function as the Checkrein of the Right Elbow is also vastly important and it thus can be the Accumulator of the Accumulators – or Master Accumulator. Also see 2-M-4.

As Accumulator #4 it is Pivot (Body) Power supplying the initial acceleration of the Downstroke to throw the Lever Assemblies toward Impact by the Thrust of the Shoulder Turn. See 7-13. Another major contribution to Impact Power is geometric – it is the first link in the Swing Radius power train between the Club and the Feet.

“Left Arm Power” in any form or amount can still be considered #4 Accumulator Action. Otherwise it actually substitutes for the Pivot to introduce the circular motion required to produce Centrifugal Force

6-B-4-A MAXIMUM POWER is obtained by using maximum On Plane Shoulder Turn Thrust against Pressure Point #4 per 7-19, and maximum Swing Radius (6-B-0).

6-B-4-B ZERO ACCUMULATION is either no Shoulder Turn or the use of Accumulator #1 alone for actuating the Primary Lever Assembly.

6-B-4-C MAXIMUM TRIGGER DELAY is achieved by using either the Standard or Delayed Pivot (to increase the Lag of the Downstroke Shoulder Turn) with a Snap Loading Action (per 7-19-3 and 10-22-C) followed by a Snap Release (10-24-E) with a Pitch Basic Stroke (10-3-B). For Hitters the essential difference is that Loading is per 7-19-1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 69385)

I'm pretty sure we're on the same page . . .

I'd like to think so.

I am learning a lot from your posts. :study:

(But I still think I understand ordinary machines better than golfing machines though.)

Quote:

but how would power from the pivot be transfered from the pivot to the power package/lever assemblies in points other than pressure point #4? Would you say there are some points missed in the right arm? if we are restricting our discussion to the power package (arms hands club) as Mr. Kelley defined it?

Structural support and aligments are key here. G.O.L.F: Geometric Oriented Linear Force. It is the linear forces that produces swing speed. The radial forces (the pull from the swing center) only changes the direction. The right side delivers linear forces through pp#1 and pp#3, weather the work is done by the pivot alone (swinging with extencior action) or also by the left arm as in a hitting stroke. Of course pp# 4 delivers linear force too by pushing the primary lever.

Even pp# 2 delivers linear force. Not linear with reference to the primary lever but with reference to the swing center. If the right arm was hanging from the neck it would only be able to deliver radial force. But luckily for us it is attached to the shoulder and is therefore pulling the club with an offset from the swing center. So as long as we're driving that pivot...

I think you nailed it with your quote of DEFINITION and STRUCTURE above.

The left shoulder joint

The left shoulder joint is IMO very significant in powering the swing. Its offset to the swing center means that it produces linear force and therefore swing speed by simply pulling the arm. I'm not referring to the shoulder throw enabled by pp#4, but the continous pull from the shoulder throughout the stroke.

There is some serious lag between the left shoulder and the left arm at the top. And also some serious lag pressure in the shoulder joint throughout the downstroke if the alignments allows it. The rigidity of the shoulders has a similar effect as a very sturdy pp# pressure point and totally dictates it to keep up with the pivot. No matter what resistance it faces during release and impact.

The "lag pressure point" in the left shoulder joint enables a throw-out action of the whole lever assembly. And it doesn't require pp#4 assistance to work either. The shoulder joint delivers power from the pivot to the ball. Just like any other power package.

But the left shoulder movement and location is geometrically misfit - too flat and above the inclined plane. So the shoulder needs help. If the left shoulder were left alone to power the club it would possibly pull the club outside the inclined plane. When the swinger rotates pp#3 to the aft of the clubshaft he will promote a downwoard directed force from pp#3 in the down stroke. More downward than the "from behind" pressure in a hitting stroke. This downward force will to a certain extent balance out and redirect the outward tendency produced by the left shoulder. Some of us use hip tilt, sequenced release, plane shift, pressure point rotation and basically any legal trick in the book to conter-balance the outward biased delivery from the left shoulder.

If we were to vote for an accumulator no#5 my vote would probably go to the left shoulder joint. Can't live with it, can't live without it.

As you stated at the TOP the left shoulder is not in a strong position. It is flat and above the swing plane. The right shoulder is in the strong position. Ready to drive down, out, and around on plane. START DOWN is shoulder acceleration, Right shoulder. The right shoulder accelerates and the left shoulder moves in accordance with the right. Check out 1F
As far as linear versus radial force look at 2K, endless belt. Over the years, I have learned to appreciate the importance of the drawings and pictures in the yellow book. The straight side of the belt is linear. Slow steady pressure. The pulley part is radial. Pure acceleration.

If the left arm was hinged to the pivot at the swing center (as it is in figure 1L) it would only be able to deliver radial force to the primary assembly, i.e. keep the primary lever assembly rotating.

But the left arm is hinged ahead of the swing center and therefore able to pull the primary lever assembly forward and not just around. If you feel any reacton from the club in the left arm, the left arm is tragging the club - not only in circles but also forward. The release of the primary lever assembly is a powered release. It does the same kind of work as the right side, only in a different manner.

The endless belt, ref 2k shows linear travel versus radial travel. That is not at all the same as linear versus radial force.

If the endless belt is moving at constant speed, the club will also have a constant speed during it's linear travel. That means that the club is not subject to any forces at all. But matter changes when it takes the curve. The change of direction is caused by a radial force. This force doesn't increase the speed; it only changes the direction.

If no linear force is applied by the belt on the club, the butt end of the club will slow down and the club face end will speed up. So the velocity energy in the lever is redistributed. (Correspondingly, the hands slow down as the clubhead picks up speed.) But the total mass-velocity of the endless belt-club will remain constant.

If the club speed is increased and not just redistributed, it's due to work from a linear force. (Linear force in the TGM sense; A force that works in the same direction as the club at any moment; in other words a tangential force).

The left shoulder pull does both those things. It can't do one without the other.