Power is accumulated, then stored during the Downstroke, then released.

That's what Okie and I are saying. The Right Elbow doesn't unbend until release. During Sections 9-2-5 through 9-2-8, the Right Elbow is Fixed. Fixed Right Elbow (Okie), Rigid Power Package (Daryl) same thing.

I know I'm saying it wrong? It should be called "Power Package" but everyone is so used to thinking that the Right Elbow Bends during the Backstroke Section of the Swing and Straightens during the Downstroke Section of the Swing, I renamed it "Rigid Power Package" to mean a Power Package with a Fixed Elbow.


Okie is the only other person I found who would confirm this. (I feel like sending him a gift) (7,200 members, and it's just me and Okie)

I really hate to say this but I think I just uncovered the Problem. I use a Right Forearm Take-Away. I don't use a shoulder turn take-away like most of you guys. So, for me, the Elbow stops Bending at the end of Start-up and my Arms and Shoulders Rotate together to the Top of the Backstroke. Most of you guys use a shoulder turn take-away. You do a Shoulder Take-away and need to bend your right elbow during the backstroke to allow your left arm to cross your chest at the Top (ala Tiger Woods). So, for you guys, it must sound crazy not to bend your right elbow during the Backstroke. Duh. AND, as it goes up, it comes down.

Ya'll need to use the Right Forearm Take-Away.

How do you know what most of us do? Or are you "assume" ing again.

It sounds like you RFT to a point and then rely on your Pivot to Pivot to Hands your way to Top. How do your ensure you arrive at Top on a TSP angle with such a sensory blacked out procedure?

I know Im being an ass here, perhaps Im still mad about that Canadian mini putt crack. That was a low blow, D. Low, very low. Lowest of the low.

Sensorily

Ob

I listen, read between the lines and watch the swing videos. Then assume.

Hands move the arms, arms move the shoulders, shoulders move the Hips. Then I guesstimate.

"Free Cunuckistan" is one of my favorite Canadian Conservative Web Sites. http://steynian.wordpress.com/

The mini-putt part was low. Please accept my sincerest apology.

Play It Again, Sam!
 

Jeff Hull's explanation of this simple drill ranks as one of the great posts -- defined as one that can help you take your ball striking to the next level NOW -- ever posted on this site. It is the essence of Zone #2 Power.

Your Body (Zone #1 Pivot with its Head Center) must be trained to accommodate this motion, and that is far easier than most imagine. See posts #1 and #4 here: http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/thread4435.html. Be sure to click on the drawings for the enlargement and explanation. Here we owe a posthumous debt of gratitude to Bob MacDonald and his magnificent work, Golf, published in 1927.

Get in touch with this action . . . and get ready to rumble!

:salut:

I agree with the above drill as the "Proper" Start-up procedure and along with Extensor Action it controls the exact amount of Right Elbow Bend needed throughout the Backstroke AND the precise amount of Right Shoulder travel and direction. This is not a shoulder turn takeaway. This drill is uniquely TGM. This describes the Right Forearm Takeaway. It's taught to so many, yet so few adopt the method during actual play. But why Unbend the Right Elbow during the Downstroke?


Extensor Action controls the Right Elbow Path and it's subsequent location at Release. It ensures that the selected Elbow Alignment at the Top of the Swing is maintained during the Downstroke for Release and that both the #3 Pressure Point and Clubhead simultaneously trace the Plane Line during the Downstroke.

For a Swinger, the Uncocking Left Wrist straightens the Right Elbow. For a Hitter, Right Triceps Thrust will Uncock the Left Wrist as the Right Elbow Straightens.

If we Straighten the Right Elbow during the Downstroke, how are we ever to have the Right Shoulder Travel the same Speed as the Power Package?


So, for a Hitter, the decision as to "When" or "Where" the Right Elbow Uncocks, is made by the Golfer per Stroke Pattern.

Hi Daryl,

I think I may have been misunderstanding something in the book. I always thought for the swinger, release of PA #4 is what straightened the right elbow. When I read 7-1, I get a sense that #1 and #2 are releasing at the same time, but not that #2 is releasing #1.

How do you feel about that?

Kevin

The Release of #4 occurs as the Shoulder Downstroke turn subsides. Doing so allows the Right Elbow to Straighten.

You've touched upon one of the most difficult to understand yet significant contributions of TGM. Remove your left hand from the club. Maintain a Bent and Level Right Wrist. Swing the Club and notice that CF pulls the right arm straight (even without the club). Add your left hand and notice that the Left Wrist Uncocks as the Right Arm Straightens; simultaneously. The Right Hand overtakes the Left Hand near impact without bending the Primary Lever. This is the Sequenced Release of a Swinger. All from Centrifugal Force.

CF acting on the Clubhead Uncocks the Left Wrist and stiffens the Primary Lever while CF Uncocking the Right Elbow allows the Right Hand to overtake the Left Hand as CF aligns the Primary Lever to the CG of the Clubhead. All of the above needs a passive and bent right elbow throughout the Release and Impact Intervals.

Thanks for the great description Daryl! :notworthy

Kevin

Hold off on the thanks because according to Jeff and Yoda, my interpretation is wrong. We should await further explanation of the Right Arm participation during the Downstroke Section.

Can I take a shot at it? That way we can all get corrected and look like dufuses or is that dufi?

For the pure CF Swinger type with an Automatic Release; When the Pivot or more specifically the Shoulder's Rate of Acceleration subsides the Left Arm separates from the Chest. The Period of Arm Acceleration. This firing of #4 is accompanied, as it must be, by a passive extension of the Right Arm #1. Given the Magic of the Right Forearm this unbending at the Right Elbow uncocks the Left Wrist, #2. With the Left Hand turned to plane this uncocking is ideally On Plane. Once the #2 Angle approaches a Level Left Wrist condition the #3 Angle fires Sequentially and Automatically. So CF can if you so choose Uncock the Left Wrist. But indirectly and through Right Elbow exetension. The Magic of the Right Forearm.

The Hitter on the other hand Fires his #1 actively rather than passively which uncocks the #2 and Rolls the #3 together, non sequentially as the Left Wrist turns away from the Inclined Plane.

This was harder than I thought it would be. Dont have my book with me right now. Anybody else want to take a shot?

What the ??????
 

Just so everyone here is clear, Daryl is not a TGM Professional, but he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

THE UN-COCKING LEFT WRIST DOES NOT CAUSE THE RIGHT ARM TO STRAIGHTEN.

No matter what procedure or how much overlap there is the correct sequence of accumulator release is 4,1,2,3. #2 never has and never will come before #1.

Please do not make an easy concept so difficult!

I didn't say any of that. There are rules here. #1: don't misquote (unintentionally :laughing9 )

The next time I visit Georgia, I'm staying with you and I'm bringing Bucket!!!!! Do you mind if Bucket brings some of his Farm Animals?


But just so that I capture your interpretation, without any misrepresentation: You say,

So, everyone should straighten the Right Arm during the Downswing.

Did I quote you correctly?

I won't mind straightening the Right Arm during the downstroke but I would like some help reconciling some of the issues I stated in previous posts in this thread.

I guess my questions will never be answered.

I would say from my lower level of learning TGM it might be considered "Dual Vertical Hinge (10-10-B)".

On todays green at least on tour I should say, I would only focus on Dual Vertical Hinge Action, No Roll of the Clubface, Reverse Roll feel. The ball will be higher comapred to Dual Horizontal Hinging and Angle Hinging and stop a hell of alot quicker.

I might have the above terms confused but this is what I believe they mean. Very sorry if I am wrong, and would not mind being corrected if so.

BG-

Does not the Golfing Machine dictate for swingers the sequence of accumulator release is 4,2,3? I always get in trouble if I focus on straightening the right arm, I do it too early and run out of right arm. Are you indicating Mr. Gnome that after accumulator #4 is released, the right arm straightens before the left wrist un cocks? I was under the impression that at impact, when the left wrist has uncocked, the right arm should be bent, not straighten. I know I get better results when my right elbow straightens after the left wrist un-cocks and rolls. The roll motion seems to make the straightening almost automatic. Confused now, what is the sequence for swingers on accumulator release?

Hi Dodger,

IMHO, 4-2-3 is correct, As four barrel is generally saved for hitting, if we know what is good for us, #1 is taken right out of the equation. No muscular effort to straighten #1 at all when swinging, it simply straightens along with the release of #4 and at the command of centrifugal force.. If #4 is released fully too soon, the right arm will straighten too soon as well.

Geez, this would be a lot easier if you guys all just switched to hitting! :laughing9

Kevin

Patterns within Patterns
 

Using Extensor Action: From the End of Startup, to the Top and down to Release, with the Right Shoulder On Plane, Hands On Plane, Flying Wedges On Plane, with 3 dimensional Elbow Control, .............:)

The Right Forearm is On Plane when the Right Forearm Flying Wedge is at Right Angles to the Left Arm Flying Wedge. When the Left Arm Wedge is on the Swing Plane you're on the Turned Shoulder Plane. When the Right Arm Wedge is on the Swing Plane you're on the Elbow Plane.

Wow thats a lot of work, thanks. You're assuming a very early Power Package Loading Point then, the Right Arm fully bent at the end of Startup. Is there a reason for this?

This would take me out of the picture when Im float loading a 10-21-D Downstroke Top , Loading Point on the downswing. But agreed my right Elbow once the Power Accumulator #1 is fully loaded, fully bent, stays that way until its stored power is Released via Right Elbow Straightening. Im trying to delay it some and do think of maintaining the right elbow bend in this connection while training.

There is a school of thought out there on the web that this elbow bend shouldnt be released till past Impact. Making the Power Accumulator firing order 2,3,4,1 or somethingerother. Dont really want to get into this but I dont get it at all, how does CF fire #2 when the Pivots still accelerating? #2 cant be fired via Thrusting if #1 is the last Accumulator to Fire. I dunno. A left hand throw? A pushing down on the #2 with the right arm but the elbow staying fully bent? Ah forget I mentioned this. I think Homer had it right, the Accumulators can be zeroed, omitted, overlapped but the order stays the same. 4,1,2,3. Hey does this make sense.......Pivot, Arms, then Hands sequentialy? Zone 1, Zone 2, Zone 3. Sort of like a chain reaction or Pivot Train or something.

Back to "dragging the wet mop", its a body thing with no hand firing. In fact the hands are just clamps that sense the lagging condition of the heavy mop handle in the pressure points. The Overtaking of the Hands by the Mop head happens and should not be held off, steered. No need to keep the body turning hard and fire the mop head past the Hands with the Hands. No world class janitor with a good back does this. Overtaking in a golf sense will not be destructive if its well timed and done via a Roll with a Flat Left Wrist as opposed a Bending Left Wrist. Do not try to Steer the clubhead or the clubface straight towards the Target or the Left Wrist will bend.

Aye.

Yes. The wrist is fully cocked at the end of startup using Magic of the right forearm. In addition, any further bending will take the Hands off plane unless a corresponding drop in elbow location/path is included.

One of the interesting things I've learned is that unbending the right elbow during the downstroke in a Pivot Controlled Hands Procedure WILL lower the Hands to the Elbow Plane. You probably avoid this by a serious effort to take the hands straight downplane or Trace the Base Line of the Plane.


Hmm? I haven't seen that one.

Ya know, when I drag farther downplane than normal, it sometimes feels like #4 fires after Impact. But it doesn't. It's just a very late release and the accumulators release so fast that it seems simultaneous.

Entirely Agree. Unfortunately, Elbow Plane Swingers must go into Release with a Bent LEFT Wrist to acquire a sequenced release from CF. Otherwise, the Release is closer to Simultaneous. I'm referring specifically to the Hogan Swivel.

So much of TGM Theory needs the Turned Shoulder Plane Angle for perspective.

So you realize it is a "feel" only and not a "real". "Seems as if", but it isnt. For you its a Delay, not a change to the sequence in the Firing Order. Makes good sense.

#4 fires first. No doubt about it.

I say you get back into the lions den one more time with this new meat strapped to your back.

"Ill be right behind you", as Bob Hope used to say to Bing Crosby.

"Hey D,look the natives are getting a nice hot bath ready for us and are going to have us over for dinner too. Wonder what's on the menu D?"

"In conclusion, that's why the Turned Shoulder Plane has better performance characteristics."

Well done D, you have captured precisely why most of the golfing world shuns TGM. :salut:

They shun TGM because it's difficult. If golf carts were banned, half of the worlds Golfers would quit tomorrow.

I'll tell you why 'D' Plane and 'Stack and Tilt' became popular. It's because they "promise" an "easier" way. There have been 'D' Planes and 'Stack and Tilts' for everything since man first walked on two feet. "Use this Face Cream and your wrinkles will disappear." "Pampers Diapers". There are thousands of 'D' Planes and 'Stack and Tilts'. They aren't about Golf. They're about a persons hope that there's a short-cut, an easier way, a cheat, a magic move, or a magic pill.

If everyone can become a great golfer by taking a pill, then Golf wouldn't be important anymore. It's valuable because it's hard.

One of the "D Plane" Pro's said the other day: "forgettabout TGM. All that ya gotta doo is hit da ball down the middle of da fairway". :laughing9 No shit? That's it? I thought it might be harder than that?

The 'C' Plane should be popular some day and 'Stack and Whack' may prove useful in the future. If you give a guy a simple sounding system, such as "Stack and Tilt", then he'll blame himself when things go wrong. If you give him a complicated system, he'll blame you when he fails for not teaching it correctly or simplifying it for him to understand. He'll call you stupid.


Do you know why there are more "Rocket Scientists" than Pro Golfers? Because being a Rocket Scientist is Easier. If Golf were easier to understand and Learn then there would be more pro golfers than Rocket Scientists. :laughing9 If you tell a Rocket scientist that he'll get more money, chicks and fast cars as a pro golfer, he'll probably ask you advice on the best way to learn. If I were you, I'd tell him the 'D' Plane. :laughing9

Lay off the M&M!
 

Take it easy on old Daryl!:happy3: This site ain't for folks that shun golf as a complexity...just those that shun golf as a mystery!:naughty: I have to agree about the carts! A great deal of work is needed before simplicity arrives.

Only your posts make the game tough to understand!

Interesting Daryl.

You say:



Yoda says:

No offence D, but this is why the green one is GREAT!

"Bueller? . . . Bueller? . . . Anyone? . . . Anyone?"
 

Now, that's funny!

:laughing9

Great, Daryl!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWzMy...eature=related

Thank you. I don't know why more people don't get my sense of humor.

:laughing9.....................And you believed him?..........................:laughing9

Perhaps you should read the Preface to the Book where the exercises were borrowed.
Golf, by Bob MacDonald, 1927.

82 years later, handicaps have barely improved.

Hey Swingmaster,

I want you to know that Post #57 was written with you in mind. Especially Illustrations #2&3. It brought me so much joy to make and share with you. Which one illustrates your procedure?

Your humble servant,
Daryl

Its completely lost on you ain't it Daryl.

Personally I think golf is as simple or as complicated as each individual chooses it to be.

I think that someone like Lynn Blake chooses to present it in as uncomplicated light as possible. He actually makes golfers better golfers.

Your methodology seems to be to take the simple and make it as complicated as possible. Jeffman used a similar approach and eventually was persuaded that his methodology was unwelcome. Perhaps history can teach you a lesson there.

I witnessed your meltdown on John Erickson's site, it was a shame you chose not to continue sharing information there.

I guess the questions you were being asked made you uncomfortable.

Anyway, continue your quest to make the simple complicated and the easy to understand incomprehensible. I'm sure there is an audience for you somewhere. Me, I'll just gloss over anything you post now

Vapid Post
 

I think you misunderstand me. Simple or complex doesn't enter into it for me. It is what it is, no matter how simple or complex it sounds. It is simple or complex for the one learning, not for the one teaching. Simplifying the subject matter doesn't make it simple. Simplifying makes it palatable. Don't you find it interesting that when simplifying there always seems to be something missing? Breaking something down into detail promotes understanding which leads to knowledge. No one is doing you a favor by simplifying. They're buying you time until you can understand better.


I was only here for a few weeks before Jeff went to greener pastures so I'm unfamiliar with his "Methodology" as you put it. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. There is no "Daryl Way". I'm not introducing new terminology or redefining TGM terms. Everything I say is open to critical review and personal attacks for those that find such things beneficial. I am wrong much of the time.

There wasn't a meltdown and the questions didn't make me uncomfortable but the answers certainly made some of them uncomfortable. It was a pointless discussion. Johns method won't work just because he trashes other methods. He has to prove it works. I asked john at the very beginning not to be drawn into a TGM bash and defend contest. I'm not the one that got kicked out of ISG.com because of abuse. I don't abuse. But abuse by others will make me leave and not post or visit a site anymore. John Erickson and Jim Waldron do abuse. But this isn't the place to discuss this. And anyone that knows them also knows this. And anyone that knows me knows that I'm fair and I have no hidden agenda.


Judging from your posts, it appears you have already glossed over most everything.

It's easy for you to sling mud, yet you refuse to say how I complicate things. My purpose is to understand. This thread is a good example. Some say that the right arm bends and unbends throughout the swing. I disagree with that procedure for a swingers Basic Pattern . I presented arguments and followed with illustrations to support my point of view trying to reconcile it with the concepts of the Golfing Machine. Why is that the wrong approach?? I have only been met with "because I said so" arguments. Have I complained? No. I have worked very hard for many years to earn the knowledge that I've gained and I'm willing to share it with anyone. No one gave it to me the easy way but many have helped me along the way.

What other purpose is there for a Forum than to discuss a subject to better understand it? That includes differing points of view. This Website has TGM Forums. We analyze, take apart TGM in minute detail to better understand the Golf Swing. Members may not get "A tip a Day".

Perhaps you would prefer this to be a BLOG. Then Lynn can write and publish and you can read and learn.

It's a simple fact that Homer Kelley spent 40 years of research and condensed his findings into a 240 page manual that could be carried to a golf lesson. If you looked at his files and sketches they must be more than 10,000 pages. A lot of discussion on this website is devoted to backing out of that 240 page manual and trying to understand what went into it. Never has there been a website devoted to talking so much about such a small book. Remember, his first AI class lasted 12 hours per day for 11 classroom days. Homer thought that this amount of time was needed to give them a good foundation. If he thought reading the book would have done the job, he would have made the print larger.

This website started as a single effort but rapidly grew into a cooperative learning experience. That means that you must study too. You must contribute by thinking and applying and reporting. Certainly I learn by answering your questions, but I want you to be able to answer mine too. I don't want my learning to be limited to your mistakes.

So far you have complained about Brian Gays spitting on the Golf Course and accuse me of making things complicated. You've asked numerous basic questions over a long period of time that simply shows your lack of willingness to pick up the book, learn, experiment and contribute. You want everyone on this site to sift TGM information through a simplification procedure which suits your appetite for learning. Well, that doesn't suit mine. How a'bout meeting a little in the middle.

My purpose isn't teaching or getting enough out of this site to improve my swing. My goal has always been investigating TGM.

Darly's Thoughts
 

I extremely enjoy them sir... keep the good stuff coming :)

M&Ms are good!
 

GP...what is the dealio? I would not recommend that you gloss over Daryl's posts. He knows TGM better than all but a select few, therefore if you hang in there you may learn something. It is one thing to say that he is the maestro of minutia, the earl of hair-splitting, the duke of details BUT you cannot say he has nothing to offer. There is only one Yoda. Perhaps Lynn can give us an understanding of what his sophisticated simplicity cost him in terms of toil and tear.This is the last place I thought that a knowledgeable contributor would be castigated for...eeek...being complex! Snack down and spit the bones out...no excuse for getting a bone stuck in your throat! Mentioning the so-called meltdown was SIMPLY bad form!

Okie, Daryl has hacked into your computer and is posting under your name again.
He just alleged that he is not making stuff up but instead is the "maestro of minutia" or something.

Okie, thank you for your support. Don't listen to O.B. I've never won a Golf Tournament and he won Two this year alone. He's just rubbing it in. :laughing9

I didn't realize that everyone thinks of my very short experience on Johns website as a meltdown. I'm surprised.

I was there. Not many were, so it would be difficult to reconstruct the conversation for everyone's review. Simply put, John is very upset that I criticized his knowlege of TGM on an LBG forum. He didn't expect such an examination. But, his swing and 4 barrel hitting pattern claim was posted by another member and I responded as I always do. Anyone can review the thread. I complimented john on his swing but I disagreed that it was a Hitting Pattern in strict accordance with TGM.

I tried explaining to him that Radial Acceleration alone doesn't define a Hitter from a Swinger but he didn't want to hear any part of it. I also explained that I wasn't visiting his Forum to discuss TGM but rather to discuss his swing method and partake in a discussion of Yodas Swing Pattern using Johns approach.

I probably should have dismissed myself at that point but I didn't know that what was to follow was a barrage of insults to TGM. The insults were not pointed at me directly, but I did respond because I was asked the questions.

John is bitter about TGM. He feels it failed him and he's seeking another way. However, he doesn't pass any opportunity to misquote and misrepresent TGM for his own agenda. Jim Waldron feels that TGM people are elitists because we view every swing through TGM Glasses. I admitted the Truth in that but it only made him more angry. Jim Waldron claims to be a Psychologist (Degree? Licensed?) and Philosopher in addition to being a Golf Instructor. He claims that Homer and his followers suffer from "Asperger's Syndrome", a mild form of Autism. His diagnosis was performed from information he learned while reading the new "Golfing Machine" Biography.

SO, on the one hand I've got a guy who blames TGM for his early retirement and another who can diagnose Autism from a Biography. Then, to top it off, GPStyles claims that I'm the one having the Meltdown. :laughing9

The pivotal point came when John asked for a definition of the "Stationary Head". I quoted the Book but he refused to accept the Answer. I explained that it came from the Glossary of the sixth edition and he responded that he only has a copy of the Fifth edition and doesn't have the Glossary.

It became obvious that after two dozen posts that this thread had nothing to do with an analysis of Lynns' swing from the perspective of Johns method. It had degraded into a "Pity Party" for John and striking out with anger against TGM became their focus and I was to be the scapegoat.

It was time to leave. If hindsight were forethought, I should have never visited the website. I always thought that golfers shared a common interest and in pursuit of that interest, they put aside self-interest for the betterment of understanding Golf Swing. Whoa. I'm very naive. For some, it's a cut-throat business and "win at any cost", which includes lying and spreading falsehoods.

I figure that if you don't fully understand TGM then more than likely you will be misrepresenting the concepts if you try to simplify them.

I can defend the concepts of TGM when asked a question. But I can't fight lies and misrepresentation and I can't argue with someone who refuses to accept a TGM definition for a TGM Term. I told John that I would leave if he continued the destructive path. It did, so I quit posting.

Given my experience at Johns Website and some others, I'm not surprised that they consider my leaving a victory. But it's a shallow victory when more is lost than gained.

Naw, it was me! I never cood spel minutiaE kurektly.

D, they loved you over there, you must go back. Please. We, here at LBG are not worthy of your genius.