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-   -   Delayed Release -- Hitters Vs. Swingers (http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=115)

Yoda 01-23-2005 01:27 AM
Delayed Release -- Hitters Vs. Swingers
 
Quote:
Originally posted by MizunoJoe
I'd like to see someone duplicate, in geometry AND results, a max trigger delay, max lag Swing with a Hitting motion. I don't believe it's possible. In other words, if a player's Swing and Hitting procedure look the same AND produce essentially the same result, his Swing uses an auto or non-auto sweep release.
MJ,

Both Swingers and Hitters delay their Release for Maximum Power. This is the Sameness (1-K). The Difference is that Swingers Load and Delay the Release of their Left Wrist. Hitters Load and Delay the Release of their Right Elbow.

Many Swingers have experienced the Feel of the Delayed Left Wrist Throw. Few have ever experienced the Feel of the Delayed Right Elbow Drive. Until they do, they will simply never understand...

Trig 01-23-2005 11:52 AM
Re: Delayed Release -- Hitters Vs. Swingers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
Few have ever experienced the Feel of the Delayed Right Elbow Drive. Until they do, they will simply never understand...
When you say delayed right elbow drive, are you saying delaying the deliberate straightening of the right arm?

I thought we should be constantly applying extensor action throughout the entire motion, including the downstroke. How do you delay it then?

Yoda 01-23-2005 12:43 PM
A Tale Of Two Thrusts
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigolt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
Few have ever experienced the Feel of the Delayed Right Elbow Drive. Until they do, they will simply never understand...
When you say delayed right elbow drive, are you saying delaying the deliberate straightening of the right arm?

I thought we should be constantly applying extensor action throughout the entire motion, including the downstroke. How do you delay it then?
The Hitter's Extensor Action of the Right Triceps is a Below Plane Stretching Action (applied against the Left Thumb) that does not move the Left Arm. It is a Non-Accelerating Thrust that supplies Power Package Mass (6-C-0-2).

In contrast, the Right Elbow Drive is an Accelerating Thrust (6-C-0-1) directed On Plane (1-L-#10/#11) that actively Drives the Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) and Sweet Spot through Impact. This Motion is anything but a 'gentle Stretching' of the Left Arm. Instead, it is a decisive -- even rigid (7-1) -- Thrust! that Uncocks both the Right Elbow and the Left Wrist.

Make no mistake: It is the Basic Drive of the Hitter's Stroke.

golfingrandy 01-23-2005 01:28 PM
Re: Delayed Release -- Hitters Vs. Swingers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigolt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
Few have ever experienced the Feel of the Delayed Right Elbow Drive. Until they do, they will simply never understand...
When you say delayed right elbow drive, are you saying delaying the deliberate straightening of the right arm?

I thought we should be constantly applying extensor action throughout the entire motion, including the downstroke. How do you delay it then?
With Hitting, the driving does not and should not take place until the right forearm is on plane. Think about it, when you turn the right forearm is not on plane with the plane. The clubshaft is on plane with the plane. So as part of the Flying Wedges, when that right forearm gets back on plane, you can now apply that precious and precise driving on plane force.

So what do most golfers fight? They fail to get the right forearm on plane which in turn means they do not get the force on plane. They then come in to high with the right forearm and in return they must flip the club for if they did not...they would flat out miss the ball.

Homer expresses with mush clarity the other name he should have and could have used for his work. "Plane GOLF"

One more tip. The Flying Wedges dictate that the right arm must always be on the aft side of the club.

Hope this aids a small bit.

Randy

Yoda 01-23-2005 01:33 PM
Look Who's Talkin'!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfingrandy

With Hitting, the driving does not and should not take place until the right forearm is on plane. Think about it, when you turn the right forearm is not on plane with the plane. The clubshaft is on plane with the plane. So as part of the Flying Wedges, when that right forearm gets back on plane, you can now apply that precious and precise driving on plane force.

So what do most golfers fight? They fail to get the right forearm on plane which in turn means they do not get the force on plane. They then come in to high with the right forearm and in return they must flip the club for if they did not...they would flat out miss the ball.

Homer expresses with mush clarity the other name he should have and could have used for his work. "Plane GOLF"

One more tip. The Flying Wedges dictate that the right arm must always be on the aft side of the club.

Hope this aids a small bit.

Randy
Most of us here already know it, but for the newbies and for the record: Here is another guy that deserves your serious attention!

Thanks Randy!

Richw 01-23-2005 03:18 PM
Re: Delayed Release -- Hitters Vs. Swingers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfingrandy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigolt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
Few have ever experienced the Feel of the Delayed Right Elbow Drive. Until they do, they will simply never understand...
When you say delayed right elbow drive, are you saying delaying the deliberate straightening of the right arm?

I thought we should be constantly applying extensor action throughout the entire motion, including the downstroke. How do you delay it then?
With Hitting, the driving does not and should not take place until the right forearm is on plane. Think about it, when you turn the right forearm is not on plane with the plane. The clubshaft is on plane with the plane. So as part of the Flying Wedges, when that right forearm gets back on plane, you can now apply that precious and precise driving on plane force.

Randy

If I understand this correctly, extensor action, as per 6-c-0-2, is purely the stretching of the left arm and 6-c-0-1 is the thrust applied by the right forearm. And the thrust is not applied until the right forearm is on plane, which should be when the forearm is almost at hip height. Good so far?

If I am correct, then the first 6-8" down from the top is merely the pull from the hip slide?

Trig 01-23-2005 03:30 PM
Re: Delayed Release -- Hitters Vs. Swingers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfingrandy
With Hitting, the driving does not and should not take place until the right forearm is on plane. Think about it, when you turn the right forearm is not on plane with the plane. The clubshaft is on plane with the plane. So as part of the Flying Wedges, when that right forearm gets back on plane, you can now apply that precious and precise driving on plane force.

So what do most golfers fight? They fail to get the right forearm on plane which in turn means they do not get the force on plane. They then come in to high with the right forearm and in return they must flip the club for if they did not...they would flat out miss the ball.

Homer expresses with mush clarity the other name he should have and could have used for his work. "Plane GOLF"

One more tip. The Flying Wedges dictate that the right arm must always be on the aft side of the club.

Hope this aids a small bit.

Randy
Randy - this helps a LOT. Thanks!

And Yoda, thanks for the tip on extensor action being a below-plane application and not a one that applies any thrust to the hit.

golfingrandy 01-23-2005 11:05 PM
Re: Delayed Release -- Hitters Vs. Swingers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richw
If I understand this correctly, extensor action, as per 6-c-0-2, is purely the stretching of the left arm and 6-c-0-1 is the thrust applied by the right forearm. And the thrust is not applied until the right forearm is on plane, which should be when the forearm is almost at hip height. Good so far?

If I am correct, then the first 6-8" down from the top is merely the pull from the hip slide?
Rich,

The following may sound incomplete or I should say, you may be looking for more but lets think about it. Contrary to some popular beliefs, some of these are in "the know" as it pertains to Homer and The Golfing Machine, the Right Forearm supplies nothing as it pertains to force. Huh? Yep, forearms are used for gripping things (It is great when one has friends in the medical field and they play golf for free at your club ;) ). Though Homer may not have been a doctor, he never the less got it right. Would you expect anything less. NO! :wink: :lol: :shock:

More importantly, when does one begin to drive? Can one view a location to monitor? The answer is yes. This is very good news for golfers. Again, think about it. For the Right Forearm to get on plane, what needs to first be on plane? You betcha'! The right elbow. Now the a biggie! What straightens the right elbow? The right tricep. Now do a search in your book about triceps. Rich, there is no fog here on the beach. Darn, is that where a so called "Bash" is going to be held? LOL!!! ;)

Hope this helps a little more.

Randy

MizunoJoe 01-24-2005 11:59 AM
Re: Delayed Release -- Hitters Vs. Swingers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
Quote:
Originally posted by MizunoJoe
I'd like to see someone duplicate, in geometry AND results, a max trigger delay, max lag Swing with a Hitting motion. I don't believe it's possible. In other words, if a player's Swing and Hitting procedure look the same AND produce essentially the same result, his Swing uses an auto or non-auto sweep release.
MJ,

Both Swingers and Hitters delay their Release for Maximum Power. This is the Sameness (1-K). The Difference is that Swingers Load and Delay the Release of their Left Wrist. Hitters Load and Delay the Release of their Right Elbow.
Even assuming that the Hitter's delayed release point gives an above-the-horizontal shaft position, which matches that of the Swinger, the Right Elbow has no chance to match CF's speed in getting the shaft to the in-line condition. From release to Impact, the max lag, snap release Swinger moves the clubhead the same distance in less time. In the real world, the Swinger moves the clubhead a GREATER distance in less time, because I believe that a max delay Hitter's shaft is probably, at best, horizontal to the ground at release.

Anonymous 01-24-2005 11:36 PM
The driving action in right arm swinging or true hitting comes from the right forearm....per 1-F. The triceps supply muscle power but the trigger is the right forearm. I guarantee you, if you start focusing on your triceps to drive the club through impact you will eventually create a condition of automatic clubhead throwaway and generate flat golf shots....no power!!! IF you don't believe me....let her rip with tricep thrust. I believe you will not find one phrase in the book that says right tricep thrust.....you will find right tricep muscle power and right tricep speed....all thrusting comments are exclusively right forearm....just checkout section 7-3....right forearm thrust is mentioned and no where will you find right tricep thrust or a driving right tricep.

That's why section 10-20 is called trigger types...something has to trigger the release of the power package!!!

DG

tradekid 01-25-2005 12:05 AM
I posted earlier tonight in the Basic forum about how I'm trying to HIt. I'm getting good results when I FEEL that the right elbow is leading the downswing into impact. After reading your post, am I right in saying what I feel is the right elbow coming down the "elbow plane". Then as I approach impact I've been feeling that I drive PP#1, and to me the inside portion of the forearm with a bent and level right wrist, at my aiming point? Does this sound like I'm "Getting" it?

Yoda 01-25-2005 12:57 AM
Right Forearm And Tricep -- Incubator Twins
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
The driving action in right arm swinging or true hitting comes from the right forearm....per 1-F. The triceps supply muscle power but the trigger is the right forearm. I guarantee you, if you start focusing on your triceps to drive the club through impact you will eventually create a condition of automatic clubhead throwaway and generate flat golf shots....no power!!! IF you don't believe me....let her rip with tricep thrust. I believe you will not find one phrase in the book that says right tricep thrust.....you will find right tricep muscle power and right tricep speed....all thrusting comments are exclusively right forearm....just checkout section 7-3....right forearm thrust is mentioned and no where will you find right tricep thrust or a driving right tricep.

That's why section 10-20 is called trigger types...something has to trigger the release of the power package!!!

DG
The following six points may help those Incubating this issue:

1. The Right Triceps is useless without the Right Forearm. And vice versa.

2. Nowhere in The Golfing Machine does Homer Kelley suggest that the Golfer use the Right Triceps consciously to produce the Major Basic Strokes. Instead, he uses the Magic of the Right Forearm and Elbow.

3. The Golfer also uses the Right Forearm to monitor the "dynamically in-line" On Plane Feel (2-F) and the Three-Dimensional Tracing of the Straight Plane Line (2-N-O).

4. While the six published editions of TGM do not contain the exact wording Right Triceps Thrust, the intent is clear. That intent is made certain in the unpublished 7th edition's revision to page 38. A new Paragraph Three reads as follows and should be written into your Book:

"Power package Muscle Power is almost entirely Right Triceps Thrust straightening the Right Elbow to furnish both Extensor Action and #1 Accumulator Power."

5. Awareness of an Active Right Arm is achieved only through monitoring an Active Right Elbow (7-20).

6. The Hitter's fundamental Release Trigger is the Right Arm Throw (10-20-B). This pure Right Arm Push cannot be accomplished except by the Right Triceps and its instrument, the Right Forearm, and it cannot be monitored except through an awareness of an Active Right Elbow.

Yoda 01-25-2005 11:50 AM
Love That Starbucks!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Quote:
6. The Hitter's fundamental Release Trigger is the Right Arm Throw (10-20-B). This pure Right Arm Push cannot be accomplished except by the Right Triceps and its instrument, the Right Forearm, and it cannot be monitored except through an awareness of an Active Right Elbow.
Yoda,

Can you clarify what Homer means by "Right Triceps and its instrument, the Right Forearm"....really, what does he mean by "instrument" that is gray terminology. TGM confuser terminology, only the writer can understand!!! It's a shame that Homer didn't recognized some of the subtle and in some cases major points of confusion that could have easily been identified with an asterisk next to the term and defined at the bottom of each page, this is a perfect example of one confusing term.


I think the right tricep thrust comment is potentially dangerous, just like the comment "a rotating downstroke body motion" (10-19-0) for swingers was bad news in the 5th edition. It's a shame this comment of right tricep thrust might confuse a number of readers, because up until the 7th edtion you only had right forearm thrust, now you will have both.

ok, then the muscles of the right forearm trigger the thrusting action of the right triceps....it's just semantics at this point. The body hasn't changed between 1983 and 2005.

The thought in the golfers mind should be in the muscles of his or her right forearm driving the right arm to a long right arm post impact. As Tomasello said....you should have the feeling the club is pulling you, drive that right arm (right forearm).

As Tiger said Hogan and Norman owned their swings....I definitely feel I own the understanding what should be the focus in "generating" right arm power....I experimented twice over a ten year span what should drive or thrust the right arm through impact.....the muscles of right forearm should be the golfers focus, the muscles of the right tricep will do their thrusting action in response to the action of the right forearm. And, the comment of the 7-3 proves it...."THE MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM", its not the magic of the right triceps....


I believe this comment still stands....the right forearm tiggers the release of the right elbow "allowing" the right triceps to apply their natural muscle power.

So, the right forearm traces the plane line, drives the power package to the release point (for hitters and right arm swingers), and triggers the release of the right elbow for non-automatic strokes.

And with that, I leave you with this last comment...right arm swingers are not switters. I would only call true swingers trying incorporate some kind of right arm power as switters. The right arm swing when properly executed should reside with the "true" swinging family or category!!!

DG
Whoa, DG. Ease off, my man!

First of all, regarding the word instrument, it was mine, not Homer's, so he's off the hook on this one.

And, just checking my Webster, the first definition is:

Instrument: a thing by means of which something is done.

So, the Forearm is the means by which the Right Triceps does its Pushing work. I had already stated that truism in Item #1 of my post, and I see nothing controversial about it. If you can find a way to make your Right Triceps functional without the use of your Right Elbow and Forearm -- or vice versa -- then you're operating with different machinery than the rest of us! But, aren't you saying the same thing, i.e., that the Right Forearm is the Golfer's means of 'taking care of business?' For the life of me, I can't see the problem here.

Regarding the Golfer's Feel localizing in the Right Elbow and Forearm (as opposed to in the originating Right Triceps) I don't think I could have been in more explicit agreement: Of course we Feel the Motion there.

Look, I just reached for my coffee cup, and without a second thought:

1. My Right Hand had an assignment;

2. The Shoulder Deltoid took care of the initial Transportation of the Arm and Hand; and

3. My Right Triceps finished the job with an extension of the Right Elbow.

Aaahh...

Love that Starbucks!

Finally, I have no problem with the Right Arm Swing. It is a bona fide catalogued TGM procedure practiced by many. Further, I have never labeled its proponents as Switters.

Now, they may get a twinge in their Elbow now and again and have to hustle down to the nearest CVS for an arm band....

Oh oh. Shouldn't have said that...

INCOMING!!!

:D

Just kidding, Dave.

Homer Kelley thought the Right Arm Swing was "a beautiful procedure." I'll dig out some audio over the next couple of weeks and see if we can't get it up on the site. Thanks for your passion on this subject and keep it burning.

We love ya man!

EC 01-25-2005 06:04 PM
Reposted from the TGM website:

ecox3
range rat


Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 91
Location: Pinehurst, NC

Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:13 pm Post subject:
D.G.

Not exactly. The trail arm does straighten either actively or passively, but only after it is carried downplane to the release point. If the right triceps were activated from the top, you would experience throwout immediately along with the corresponding loss of lag...ugh! The point is that the trail forearm can only be thrown or driven The muscles of the forearm can only assist in squeezing and turning and are incapable of thrusting on their own.

EC


I thought this was interesting.

EC

Anonymous 01-25-2005 09:02 PM
When did I say the right forearm acts on it's own....please reread my post....I think you glazed over it. Really folks, I do not have to think about the right triceps at all, I just feel there power... I know they will respond to the action of the right forearm and the rotational action of the pivot.

Hey Yoda,

I enjoyed reading your six points....I was just a little confused about the "instrument" comment (never saw that comment before!!!!)..remember I have been reading the machine for 14 years....new terminology that appears to be of the gray sort errrkkksss me.

DG

Yoda 01-25-2005 11:40 PM
The Instrument
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Hey Yoda,

I enjoyed reading your six points....I was just a little confused about the "instrument" comment (never saw that comment before!!!!)..remember I have been reading the machine for 14 years....new terminology that appears to be of the gray sort errrkkksss me.

DG
Understood, DG. However appropriate, it did sound a little 'Jim Flick-ish." :-#

rrabick 01-26-2005 09:08 AM
Hello fellow TGM'ers,

Been reading the 'big three' forums and I must say these are an absolutley invaluable source for learning! Thanks to all. The fog is gently lifting for this disciple. :D

My question: why is the right arm swinger more susceptible to elbow pain than the true left arm swinger and right arm hitter?

rrabick

Anonymous 01-26-2005 09:05 PM
I have been right arm swinging for a solid year with weighted club practice, no pain....you will experience pain if you try to incorporate downstroke loading by trying to increase right elbow bend. So, stay away from downstroke loading, simple as that....

DG

Yoda 01-26-2005 09:58 PM
A Tale Of Twin Twinges
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrabick
Been reading the 'big three' forums and I must say these are an absolutley invaluable source for learning! Thanks to all. The fog is gently lifting for this disciple. :D

My question: why is the right arm swinger more susceptible to elbow pain than the true left arm swinger and right arm hitter?
Good question, rrabick. Thanks! You are an inspiration to the many who 'lurk' but do not post: Remember, to get your questions answered, you have only to ask! We are here to supply! :D So, step forth from that "gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." Join us here in the Arena! Post!

To your question, rrabick:

Right Arm Swingers are more susceptible to Elbow pain because they have transferred the Center of their Stroke from the Left Shoulder to the Right Elbow. And Swinging from the Right Elbow puts a strain on the ligaments that is not present in the Straight Line Piston Action the Right Elbow makes in Left Arm Swinging or Right Arm Hitting. So, if you've got a pain in the Right Elbow, stop Swinging that Right Arm, and learn to Drive it instead.

Left Arm Swingers can experience a similar Left Elbow problem if they attempt to Pull violently from the Top using Left Arm Muscle Power. That is because the Left Arm can only apply its Power backhanded, and its muscles therefore can make only a feeble contribution to the Stroke. If you attempt to use 'will' power to force the issue, you invite trouble. True Left Arm Power lies in its function as the Stroke Radius. And that Stroke Radius is not driven by the Left Arm itself, but by the Momentum Transfer of the Turning Body.

So, if you've got pain in your Left Elbow, stop pulling so hard with that Left Arm. Instead, learn to accelerate it with your Pivot. Not only will you hit the ball much further and with more accuracy, you'll also be able to trash that arm band.

Matt 01-26-2005 10:24 PM
Re: A Tale Of Twin Twinges
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
Left Arm Swingers can experience a similar Left Elbow problem if they attempt to Pull violently from the Top using Left Arm Muscle Power. That is because the Left Arm can only apply its Power backhanded, and its muscles therefore can make only a feeble contribution to the Stroke. If you attempt to use 'will' power to force the issue, you invite trouble. True Left Arm Power lies in its function as the Stroke Radius. And that Stroke Radius is not driven by the Left Arm itself, but by the Momentum Transfer of the Turning Body.

So, if you've got pain in your Left Elbow, stop pulling so hard with that Left Arm. Instead, learn to accelerate it with your Pivot. Not only will you hit the ball much further and with more accuracy, you'll also be able to trash that arm band.
Hi Lynn,

After the requisite hip slide, what should one feel 'moves' next? I know for a Swinger, it should be a 'pull' of some kind. But in this post, you appear to say that pulling with the left arm is a no-no. Should it be a right shoulder thrust with the hands aiming? This should be clear to me by now, but every time I think "hey, I've got it" something like this will surface and make me wonder. :?:

Anonymous 01-27-2005 12:14 AM
Beautiful Procedure
 
In the case of the right arm swing....it's the driver not the car, just like most anything that involves skill. And take Homer's comment... Homer said the right arm swing is a beautiful procedure, doesn't get better than that...

Night all,

DG

Yoda 01-27-2005 12:18 AM
Homer Kelley Soon On Right Arm Swing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delaware Golf
Lynn,

In the case of the right arm swing....it's the driver not the car, just like most anything that involves skill. And take Homer's comment... Homer said the right arm swing is a beautiful procedure, doesn't get better than that...

Night all,

DG
Agreed, DG. We're working as priorities permit to get that audio up for you. Stay tuned!

rrabick 01-27-2005 09:13 AM
Thanks Yoda and DG,

All the input is truly appreciated.

I am having trouble understanding how one "swings" with the right arm. If swinging is based upon a pulling type motion with the shoulders acting as a flywheel (as Yoda has clearly demonstrated) how on earth do you pull with the right arm?

When and how does the right arm swing?

What am I missing here guys?


Just a side note:

I changed to hitting with my irons last year using the recommend angle hinge action and it was the best iron year I've ever experienced. Hitting draws or fades by simply adjusting the grip accordingly, scary fun! Finally broke into the 60's on a somehwhat frequent basis (1 out 5 rounds).

And don't read too much into that as I played the same course over and over and it is by no means a challenging one. Just have very small elevated greens to which I was able to attack with the new found iron accuracy.

MizunoJoe 01-28-2005 09:01 AM
Re: A Tale Of Twin Twinges
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
Left Arm Swingers can experience a similar Left Elbow problem if they attempt to Pull violently from the Top using Left Arm Muscle Power. That is because the Left Arm can only apply its Power backhanded, and its muscles therefore can make only a feeble contribution to the Stroke. If you attempt to use 'will' power to force the issue, you invite trouble. True Left Arm Power lies in its function as the Stroke Radius. And that Stroke Radius is not driven by the Left Arm itself, but by the Momentum Transfer of the Turning Body.

So, if you've got pain in your Left Elbow, stop pulling so hard with that Left Arm. Instead, learn to accelerate it with your Pivot. Not only will you hit the ball much further and with more accuracy, you'll also be able to trash that arm band.
Hi Lynn,

After the requisite hip slide, what should one feel 'moves' next? I know for a Swinger, it should be a 'pull' of some kind. But in this post, you appear to say that pulling with the left arm is a no-no. Should it be a right shoulder thrust with the hands aiming? This should be clear to me by now, but every time I think "hey, I've got it" something like this will surface and make me wonder. :?:
Homer said, "I don't care what you pull with, just pull."

Matt 01-28-2005 10:22 AM
Re: A Tale Of Twin Twinges
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MizunoJoe
Homer said, "I don't care what you pull with, just pull."
So I've been told. But...

Lynn seems to not recommend the left arm in his above post. :?:

JohnThomas1 01-28-2005 11:46 AM
I'm just learning the book
 
But somewhere in there i'm pretty sure Homer states that for swingers they should have an action similar to pulling an arrow from the quiver feather end first.

MizunoJoe 01-28-2005 03:30 PM
Re: A Tale Of Twin Twinges
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
Quote:
Originally Posted by MizunoJoe
Homer said, "I don't care what you pull with, just pull."
So I've been told. But...

Lynn seems to not recommend the left arm in his above post. :?:
Yes, the idea of the inert left arm and the Right Shoulder spinning the gyroscope. However, there is direct verbal evidence from, as well as photographic evidence of, tour players who do "other" things.


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