Takeaways
 

The Right Forearm Pickup, and The Shoulder Turn Takeaway have been discussed on this forum. Let's discuss other options(Variations) for the takeaway that are acceptable, and also those that are less acceptable.

Standard Hip Action is another.....it produces a double shift plane angle....For swinging, it will produce a Top Arc and Angled Delivery Path...if I was a lower body swinger on the down swing, I would use this takeaway.

What takes you up brings you down...


DG

Pivot - Controlled
1. Standard - Full Pivot Takeaway All Components - Bobby Jones
2. Right Hip Turn Takeaway - "TGM Old School - Tommy "
3. Shoulder Turn Takeaway w/Standard Hip Action - Bobby Clampett
4. Shoulder Turn Takeaway w/ Delayed Hip Action - Nick Price
Hand Controlled
5. Right Forearm Takeaway - "TGM Magic"
6. Right Forearm Takeaway with the Start up "swivel" of Standard Wrist Action - "TGM Magic w/Archie Swivel"
7. Independent Left Arm "Sweeping" from the Shoulder With Zero Wrist Action - Colin Montgomery
8. Independent Wrist/Hand Takeaway - Ray Floyd
9. Single Wrist Action with a Hinge Action substituting for Wrist Action - Jesper Parnevik
10. On Plane - Hands Only - Grant Waite

Anymore?

Bagger your re-sizing assistance would be warmly welcomed

The Hip Turn Takeaway
 

Thanks, DG. In the Standard Hip Action, the Hips lead the Shoulders both back and down. Homer Kelley labeled this procedure Standard because it has been used and recommended by golfers literally for at least two centuries. And then along came...

The Golfing Machine®.

skinning cats
 

although not a different take away...i've been working on feeling the RFT dragging back the right hand which drags the left hand which drags the left arm->left shoulder->left hip->left knee->left heel...and then having the last things going up start dragging the whole thing back down by getting a bent left knee over a flat left foot->left shoulder->left arm->left hand->...well, you get the idea...

-hcw

I forgot..You don't hit it in the Takeaway do ya?

If "TGM Old School - Tommy".....is refering to Tom Tomasello...it's wrong....I have him on cassettee tape saying Right Forearm Takeaway and with Delayed Hip-Action NOT STANDARD HIP ACTION.

Backstroke Sequence - Right Forearm, Shoulders, Shoulders Turning the HIPS.

Downstroke Sequence - Right Forearm start down, On plane Right Shoulder (and hip slide), Left Hip Rotation.

Re-Cap downstroke - Right Forearm, Shoulders, Hips.


The sequence in the Australia tape where Tomasello says...the first move is to withdrawl the right hip....he's isolating a pivot component...he wants you to feel the full motion of the right hip turning out of the way per 12-3-0-24 (clearing right hip)...withdrawling the right hip in the backstroke is not the first motion to start the backstroke...that's a misinterpretation. Refer to the first sentence in 6-P-0....Tommy was big on isolating components....that goes for standard wrist action with the 1 to 2 move in the backstoke...that little move is component isolation.

Tomasello taught delayed-hip action.

DG

You're right DG... but,PERHAPS before you went to him ... According to EC, JP, TF, CW, RH,RJ, and RP(8 differnt students that I have personally worked with..SAID he taught them to withdraw the right hip....fold the right arm ....whip the right arm...zip the left hip....which is ...."I'm not allowed to say it!" I believe Tommy made more tapes than the Australian Tapes ...he made a whole lotta tapes ...perhaps different tapes for different folks, different schools, different private lessons??? Perhaps he was smart enough to adjust his information to what the "student " needed...which is the "essence of education"

This post is about .."TAKEAWAYS"...NOT THE Takeaway!!!]

I believe withdrawling the right hip first is a misinterpretation...it would put the golfer on a elbow plane angle...the Australia tape is from 1989 and Tommy is clearly on a turned shoulder plane angle and Top Arc and Straight Line Delivery Path...to achieve that one must start with Right Forearm Takeaway.

My guess is the golfers you mentioned above were already swinging on a elbow plane angle before studying with Tomasello.

DG

Fair Enough....DG

So what do ya think of of Grant Waite,Bobby C, BobbyJ, and Ole Monty??? Let's figure out how these guys did it without using the recommended RFT

I hate wasting my time on non-value added things...so, I will comment on Grante Waite....he looks TGM influenced even at that point in the swing...clubshaft parallel to the planeline...it looks solid.

BTW, the two students of Tomasello that I have seen swing a club are Jodie Mudd and Mark Evershed....no standard hip-action there...RFT.

DG

As of last year, Grant said he uses a shoulder turn takeaway and thus a double shift.

Sure...Pivot Controlled Hands versus Hand Controlled Pivot...

I use a hybrid that is made up of the shoulder turn takeaway and the right forearm pickup.

I use the shoulder turn takeaway to initially move the club off the ball while still tracing a straight plane line. This is only the first few feet. Once i know i'm either on plane or even SLIGHTLY (very slightly) inside (my problem is an outside takeaway thus what i do above) i then simply fold my right elbow and keep rotating my shoulders and maintain extensor action until the backswing is finished.

This is the takeaway that ALLOWS ME to make a very good backswing. If i strictly use a shoulder turn takeaway my plane line shifts way out to the right (good for hitting a draw). If i strictly use a right forearm pickup (while swinging not hitting) i have a tendency to take it to the outside and i get a pull.

It's all about options :)

Jim,

What Delivery Path are you using?

DG

Annikan,

Your efforts are not wasted on me. A great start to the question. I'll work on the resizing when I get a chance, but I think the photos get the main point across.
There are many, many great swings that can be categorized regardless of chronology and well worth the effort. There are some great takeaways from the "Bobby's".
Drag'in the line...

Be nice guys or Yoda will Lock this Thread..........=;

LOL...don't know. Maybe brian would know haha.

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Tom made a tape around 1988 or so, where he is wearing shorts. I think this is the version that Annikan is talking about. "Turn the right hip back, while keeping the right knee flexed." "Right hip, right arm; right arm , left hip... face the target." He later made the Australian tape,with Peter Croker on there, that has a little different information...this is what D.G. is talking about. In his Advanced Schools, Tom would cover some Variations.

Excellent pictures Annikan!!!! There are obviously numerous ways to take it BACK, and still get on plane on the downswing.

Now... for the guys using Shoulder Turn Takeaway. Are they using Flat, or Rotated?

I have also noticed another version. Kirk Triplett, Jay Haas, and Johnny Miller all APPEAR to have somewhat of a Hands Plane Version, but a little different. It seems to work pretty well for them. Any ideas on this?

Lagster,
Thank you for your clarification...Here are more pics...;)

For those who use Standard Wrist Action (i.e. most Swingers), do you perform this move consiously or let CF do it? Do you find by using a very pure Right Forearm Pickup move, you end up with more of a Single Wrist Action, which means no Start up Swivel? Any thoughts?

TT must have been a poor communicator!
 

Eight students say that Tomasello told them to start the BS with the right hip and all eight MISINTERPRETED?:confused:

My friend Jim Percherke a Footjoy Rep in DC Area was a student of a Tommy throughout his college career...just told me today....that Tommy told him quote...."Listen Pally...You can't withdraw that right hip quick enough...remember withdraw the right hip... raise the right arm ...lower the right arm...zip the left hip" ....We changed it recently.... to a RFT w/ a delayed hip action

Interesting that you bumped into him today....

Annikan...I've got something better...why don't we listen to the MAN himself..

Direct quotes from Tomasello...In Tommy's studio (Deer Track Golf Resort).

The conversation is between DG and Tomasello exactly 12 years...

Tomasello:....for a chip shot it's the forearm (right forearm), then we get to the Pitch shots it's still the right forearm, and then we get a little further back (Full Swing), the right forearm going up pulls the shoulders, the shoulders pull the hips...Now when we reverse that right... (Tomasello demonstrates the forward swing) bang!!! So the forward golf swing is merely a reversal---IN ORDER(Tomasello raises the tone of his voice)...in order see...(right forearm start down)...Alright, now what was the first move when going backward....the forearm.

DG: The Right Forearm

Tomasello: The forearm, the forearm...Now the forearm pulls the shoulders that pulls the hips....

DG: That's your delayed hip action.

Tomasello: You got it....

This debate about Tomasello is stupid, i'm sure he was an extremely talented instructor. TGM is all about OPTIONS and finding the right OPTIONS for your particular student!

Every instructor has preferences but any good instructor will teach the student what works best FOR HIM/HER!

Maybe for you DG it was a RFP technique, maybe for a lot of others it was the standard hip action and elbow plane.

I know personally, that i don't use the eblow plane (at least since the last time i've seen brian, i might be subconsciously using it now, but he'll make that evaluation when i see him again) and do much better on the turning shoulder plane.

Don't modify the student into your preferences, modify your preferences to meet the students!

^^^Hall of fame quote if i don't say so myself

Hmmmmm....interesting comments...at the time of that conversation with Tomasello I hadn't pickup a club yet...that was the first day/morning of my three day school...so, Tomasello's comments were not influenced by my swing....I believe Tomasello's comments/recommendations were on par with stroke patterns 12-1-0 and 12-2-0....look at those two patterns...where do you see standard hip action...and that's coming from Homer.

DG

Proud To Be Here
 

I am personally enjoying the civility of this discussion and the restraint shown by all. It is the respectful give-and-take one would expect in a fine club, even when opinions are strongly held.

This is just one more thing that differentiates the LBG Forums from many others. We are like-minded individuals gathered for a common purpose: To learn from and share with others in an atmosphere of comraderie and mutual respect.

Frankly, I am very proud to be part of it.

DG'
I am fine with what Mr.Tomascello taught you...No problemo...And I didn't happen to bump in to Jim Percherke ...I called him to order a pair of #75478 9D Classic Dress Shoes from Footjoy and to thank him for his contribution of 4 more studio chairs for my studio....Our post reminded me of him!!! So thank you for jarring my memory...;)

Still Proud
 

Whew...that was a close one! :D

Good place to for someone to explain why tracing a straight plane line in the backswing is Imperative? :confused:

Which Tracing Is Imperative?
 

Interesting point, nevermind, and one that deserves an important differentiation.

Tracing a Straight Plane Line on the Backstroke simplifies the mission of getting to the Top correctly. However, because the Top itself can be (and is) a re-alignment place, the route chosen from Address can and does vary widely.

On the other hand, Impact is not a re-alignment place. You are either on the money there or you are not. And Tracing a Straight Plane Line on the Downstroke is mandatory to correctly Deliver the Clubhead into the Ball.

Therefore, it is this last Tracing -- not the first -- that is The Third Imperative.

Thanks Yoda :smile:

I haven't read my book for a while, guess I forgot the part where it specifies that tracing the straight plane line during the Backstroke is not a part of the Third Imperative. :oops:

On Line 'Through The Ball' Is The Third Imperative
 

The book itself does not differentiate Backstroke versus Downstroke Plane Line Tracing as the Third Imperative. However, it can be inferred from the text, particularly paragraphs 2-N-0 (Clubhead Line of Flight) and 12-3-0 (the Mechanical Checklist, specifically the Impact Sections 9/10/11 and On Line Uncocking, On Line Release Swivel and On Line Hinge Action).

ahhh, now I feel a little better. I was never any good at reading between the lines. That's what you guys are for, and on that, job well done. :)

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How about getting back to this? Let's discuss how, and why these different takeaways work!

I had in there some where a question about the Jay Haas, Johnny Miller, Kirk Triplett variation that got lost in the shuffle... looks like kind of a Hands Plane to me.