How Do I Learn To Hit Down?
 

Hello folks. I joined this site a few weeks ago and have been reading and viewing the threads and videos and decided to add a thread of my own.

First I would like to say that Mr. Blake has a wonderful way of describing things that has me "get" a lot of the information in TGM book that are fuzzy at best. I must say that following Mr. Kelly writing style is not always a simple thing but I think it will come iN time (especially with websites devoted to TGM theory).

Okay. I've been taking on the basics of TGM for about two months and have really seen marked improvement when I do get to go out and play. So far I've mainly focused on staying on plane, maintaining the bent right wrist, reducing any bending in the left wrist (i.e. uncocking and rolling, not bend... very helpful I might add) and keeping my head centered. I've also been peforming some lag drills and trying to feel the sensation while playing. A lot of this I have simply done at home.

As much as I've tried I can't seem to get the hang of hitting down on the ball during the full swing (have pretty good success in chipping and punch shots). I was viewing Mr. Blake's video today of the aiming point concept (I bleieve it is what you were demonstrating) with the dowels and the parralel line of force that the hands can be directed (am I making any sense?).

My question is this... would aiming my hands to a location and not aiming the clubhead "at the ball" assist me in striking down on the ball during a full swing. The aiming point concept is something I find vague but I believe has (or could have) tremendous value. I'm very frustrated in the quality of contact with my full swing and lose a lot of distance and have a higher than "should be" ball flight because (I believe) of my inability to consistently hit down on the ball.

Sorry my first thread was sooooo long.

Michael

Hitting Down (And Other Matters)
 

Welcome aboard, Michael, and thanks for this first post. Keep'em comin'!

Your problems -- lack of 'Down', Distance and desirable Ball Flight -- are due to Throwaway (6-D-0). And there is a high probability it follows the usual sequence: Hand Throw from the Top followed by Over-Acceleration in the Downstroke and Quitting through Impact (6-D-1/2/3). The cure, basically, is learning to swing the Club correctly. :)

My guess is that you have Off Plane Shoulder Rotation in the Start Down combined with the aforementioned early Hand Throw Release and Wrist Bend (a Horizontal Motion) through Impact. You need to substitute an On Plane Start Down of the Right Shoulder and Hands; a positive Lag Loading; and a strongly Downward Left Wrist Uncocking (a perpendicular motion) through Impact.

So, conceding the constraint of an unseen Stroke, do the following:

1. Leaving your Hands at the Top, begin your Start Down with a slight Hip 'bump' parallel to the Target Line. This move will correctly Load your Left Wrist (and the Lag) On Plane.

2. Drag this Loaded Left Wrist directly toward the Target Line in the Downstroke.

3. Then, sensing the Throw-Out Action of Centrifugal Force in Release, Throw the Club strongly Downward -- directly toward the ground -- with a vigorous Uncocking of the Left Wrist.

These moves are not a band-aid cure. Instead, they are fundamental to a sound Swing. With a little practice, your Swing will improve, and when your Swing improves, your Shots will improve.

That's the way it works. :cool:

Thanks so much for replying so quickly to my questions. I'm certainly no expert but what you are saying in your analysis sure sounds like exactly what's going on! I certainly know that I overaccerlate and the funny thing is is that each time when I set up to the ball I tell myself that I'm not going to do that but... voila, almost every time I do. I want to take what you recommended and also research the book so that I can cross-reference the two and help the book make more sense to me. And of course work on your recommendations.

I have another question if you have a minute. The feeling of "dragging" the club through the hitting zone (i.e. lag or drag drills)... it seems awkward to keep the body moving in such a manner that would give this sensation while swinging in realtime. Is that natural? Do I just need more practice? Is that something I even need to be trying to accomplish?

Thanks again for taking the time out to read and reply to my questions... it really makes a difference.

Michael

Learning The Correct Clubhead Lag Pressure Feel
 

Yes, you absolutely should be trying to capture the correct sensation of Clubhead Lag Pressure. And no, it is not natural.

In fact, learning to Deliver inert Lag Pressure into Impact is one of the most unnatural act imaginable. It is why there are so few really good players. It is also why, in the first edition of TGM, Homer Kelley used ten descriptive terms and one analogy to spell out unmistakeably its sensation:

"The correct Clubhead Lag Pressure Feel is a deadweight -- a status quo -- a deliberate, unvarying 'steady as she goes'. An unrevoked, unreversed, stable, permanent inertia. Exactly like dragging a wet mop through Impact."

Well, all rightee then!

First, I would look up each of the terms in the dictionary. Dwell on the intellectual concept of the totally inert Lag Pressure. Then, in drill, repeat (and sense) each word (or group of words) as you s-l-o-w-l-y drag a real wet mop -- not a dry mop and not a broom! -- through the Impact. That would be eleven 'drag-throughs'. Make sure you keep your Left Wrist Flat and your Right Wrist Bent throughout the exercise. Then one or two more 'drag-throughs' repeating (and sensing) the entire description. Do that every day for three weeks and, I promise you, your Motion through Impact will improve -- probably dramatically.

Now you are ready for the Practice Tee. The goal is now to capture the sensation during an actual Golf Stroke. Leave the long Clubs in the bag and head for the Short Game area. You simply must begin with the short Chips and Pitches. Before each Stroke, repeat the words "Dra-a-a-g my wet mop."

Dra-a-a-g my wet mop. Click!

Dra-a-a-g my wet mop. Click!

Dra-a-a-g my wet mop. Click!

Every now and then, don't hit a Ball. Instead, just put the Clubhead down opposite your right foot and simply drag the clubhead along the ground until it must come up. All the while, of course, leading the Clubhead through with your Flat Left Wrist and your Bent Right Wrist. A few thousand of these Chips, Pitches and Drag Drills and you will be on track for a lifetime of better Golf.

Finally, when you can swing your Hands through the Ball -- and not hit at the Ball! -- while keeping your Left Wrist Flat and your Right Wrist Bent, proceed to the longer strokes and simply add more 'zip'. The character of the Motion remains the same.

I am going to take this on. Conceptually it sounds curious at best being that a wet mop would certainly have more drag or inertia (I am an engineer by trade and degree) then a golf club that weighs much less but I think I understand it's purpose.

Calling this sensation "Lag Pressure" has me believe that I am to sense this force over an area and I'm wondering if that area is my #3 PP? Recently I have been placing the #3 PP directly behind the shaft, which is a totally differnt feeling for me, but the results I have been getting indicate that doing this has merit (I can't remeber if I read that somewhere in TGM book or what... I kind of read through the sections and now am going through in more detail). Does that sound like a cure for some other problem or am I beginning to understand?

Thnaks so much for your time and attention.

Michael

Mop Dragging And Lag Sensing
 

If you use a real wet mop -- or if you simulate it by looping a wet large towel over the hosel of a Club -- you most certainly will sense the Clubhead Lag Pressure in your #3 Pressure Point (meaty part of the right forefinger). Just wait and see!

Beyond that, because of the heavy load you are d-r-a-g-g-i-n-g through 'Impact', you will also sense Accumulator Lag (of each of the employed Accumulators) as well as Pivot Lag (the core muscles actuating the Pivot).

Preacher man!

A big ole' break out snakes AMEN from the choir!!!

Hmm . . . do I smell a video? Maybe? Please?

This is the precision information that separates the Koolaid drinkers from the mouth breathers that take a magazine article as the "gospel."

The good Lawd gave us opposable thumbs so we ain't livin' like dawgs . . . and he gave us Mr. Kelley to shine the light of G.O.L.Fing TRUTH.

Have MERCY!!!! Good Gawd!!! Take me to the WATER!!!!

DEADWEIGHT - The unrelieved weight of a heavy, motionless mass
STATUS QUO - The existing condition or state of affairs.
DELIBERATE - by conscious design or purpose
UNVARYING - persistent in occurrence and unvarying in nature
STABLE - Resistant to change of position or condition; not easily moved or disturbed - Not subject to sudden or extreme change or fluctuation
PERMANENT - Lasting or remaining without essential change
INERTIA - The tendency of a body to resist acceleration; the tendency of a body at rest to remain at rest or of a body in straight line motion to stay in motion in a straight line unless acted on by an outside force.

dictionary.com didn't have the other terms???

As Mr. K tells us in 7-19 Lag Pressure Point "feel" is not only "Constant Loading" but also "Constant DIRECTION."

So Omnipotent Asparagus Colored Professor of Lag Pressure with sparkling clean freshly mopped floors . . .I pose a question on the MOP DRAGGING. . .

When dragging the ole MOP, the feeling of LAG PRESSURE in the Hands is an UNMISTAKEABLY STRONG SENSATION of PRESSURE. Also, the muscles in the BACK, RIGHT FOREARM, and THIGHS are very much ALIVE. As we drag the Mop back and then CHANGE DIRECTIONS the wet Mop Head resists the change and the PRESSURE POINTS are LOADED. Then this LOAD is "constantly" felt and its direction is also "constant."

Do you feel the SAME degree of LAG PRESSURE in your Hands when Swinging an actual club as with the mop exercise? Or is this an exaggerated feeling to Program the Computer to recognize and be sensitive to the all important LAG PRESSURE? So it is this CONSTANT LOAD and CONSTANT DIRECTION that result in a bent right wrist and flat left wrist, no?

Thank you . . . thank you . . . thank you.

Mop Bucket

I'm curious about this as well, Bucket. I have a hard time replicating the wet mop drag feel with shorter clubs on full shots, and forget about any kind of short shot.

Feelings
 

The wet mop lag pressure is an exaggerated Feel, and the s-l-o-w 'drag-through' serves as dynamic Impact Interval programming for all Components of the Stroke.

Thanks, Colonel -- you may be Bucket to others but to me you'll always be The Colonel! -- for posting the definitions of Homer's descriptive terms. I appreciate your many contributions to this site.

How to learn to hit down the, the short version:

1)Start with a flat left wrist and a bent right wrist
2)pick the club up w/o letting it roll open
3)aim your hands (not the club) about 4-5" in front of the ball
4)punch the ground with the heel of your right hand.

:)

Nothing more than Feelings . . .
 

Well sir . . . if I'm the Colonel (Private Parts may be more appropriate) the you are the COMMANDER IN CHIEF OF STAR SYSTEM of G.O.L.F. All though there may be other owners you OWN IT my split green pea soup colored amigo.

All is cozy and warm in the foxhole . . . the Colonel is ready and on stand-by.

Thanks for the input. What do you mean by "strike the ground with the heel of your rignt hand"? Do you mean punch at the ground or am I not understanding the drill? Would this be the same with all the clubs (except the driver)?

Thanks

Michael

Didn't say strike...said punch. :)

Ever see any martial artists punch someone in the chest? They do it with the heel of their hand with it "bent back."

Do the same "punch" but at the ground.

----

The 4 step drill above is basically a quick and dirty hitting motion to make you learn how to hit down with your hands ahead without getting too wordy. :)

Jim,
That is such a descriptive thought, Punch the ground with the heel of the right hand. Not sure why but that has really struck a chord with me, thanks. Was that one of your own, or did you borrow it from someone!!!

I'm sure i borrowed it from someone...but i do say A LOT "punch the ground."

I just wanted to re-iterate the "heel part" because if you dont, people might start flipping. If you make them do it with the heel of their hand, it almost ensures a foward leaning shaft.

When you say "in front of the ball" do you mean toward the target side of the ball or the trail side?

aim your hands parallel to your target line but keep them ahead of the ball.

Where Do Divots Come From?
 

Here is a response to a Private Message that I thought could serve in this thread.

The geometrically-carved Divot is taken because the Club is descending correctly Down Plane to Low Point, not because there is a new Low Point. With the non-teed Ball (and with many teed Balls) positioned back in the Stance (Up Plane), Low Point is always in the ground.

If the Club does not descend all the way to Low Point, it is usually because the Left Wrist has Bent. When this happens, the Club immediately ascends, and the player has thus established a new Low Point (opposite the Bending Left Wrist, not the Left Shoulder). This mechanical disruption destroys the Clubhead's true Three Dimensional Orbit (Down, Out and Forward) and, unless intentional, will result in less than optimal results.

Great post yoda....that's why if you position the ball towards the middle of your stance and you truly drive the clubhead into the ground TO LOW POINT....you'll have one looooooooooooooooong divot ;)

Beaver Pelts
 

Right you are, Jim. At our Long Island school this past summer, Ted Fort and I passed on adjacent fairways. He holds up by its tail-end a bluegrass divot a full eighteen inches long, and says:

"Hey, Yoda. Look at this beaver pelt!"

Down South, we're used to Bermuda grass divots that basically explode. This was a whole lot more fun!

First off, thank you much for addressing my PM Lynn. Appreciate it.

....

I must be missing something though. If this is a mechanical disruption.....then why would anyone ever want to use anything but a "constant, single ball position" (off the left heel)?

Know what I'm getting at? Everytime someone hits a shot with the ball posistioned behind the Left Shoulder it can't be a mechanical disruption, can it?

I know there must be a reason...

-Paul

Like this?




Now that's divot explosion G.O.L.F.

Bomb Squad
 

Neat photo, Mike. Ol' Yoda tearin' one out of the turf with a Swingin' Horizontal Hinge. Thanks!

Down And Dirty
 

Low Point is independent of Ball Location. When the Ball located at Low Point, there will be no Divot. When the Ball is located on the ground and Up Plane from Low Point, there will be a Divot. And the further Up Plane and the steeper the Plane Angle, the deeper that Divot will be.

Okok. What I'm interested in though Yoda, is the WHY....

---what is causing the club to bottom out before Left Shoulder? (and not AT Left Shoulder). Steeper Plane Plane Angle?....if so, then WHAT does the golfer do to cause the Plane Angle to change?

...

....if you don't mind sprinkling more of that green Yoda dust this way. ;)

Down Plane To Low Point
 

Just because the Club has hit the ground does not mean that it has reached its lowest point. That lowest point does not occur until the Clubhead is in front of the Left Shoulder (and further Down Plane, i.e., further down in the ground).

Low Point is established by the player at Impact Fix. Assuming the Ball is on the ground (or a low tee), if you locate the Ball Up Plane from Low Point, you will take a Divot. If you locate the Ball at Low Point, you will not.

Maybe the piece you are missing is this: When the Ball is located at Low Point, the Left Shoulder is automatically higher at Fix than it is with the Ball located further Up Plane, i.e., back in the Stance. This Shoulder-to-Ball Radius is established using the geometrically-correct procedure discussed in 2-J-1.

divots
 

Three more like that one, and you could sod your yard.

Aha! That's why! Left Shoulder has not moved up as much....I shoulda known that. :rolleyes:

Thanks Lynn.

O....one more thing...

So are you saying that....

....with a shot taken where the ball is positioned, say- in the middle of the stance.....that really, one could try to swing to a Low Point under the ground/at the Left Shoulder? (you just won't reach it because you won't hit the ground before the clubhead has reached Left Shoulder).

I hope these thoughts aren't too out there.....

-Paul

The Frozen Gate
 

Paul,

Your Incubator is in full overdrive now, and somewhere soon in these exchanges, the truth will hit you like a ton of bricks. You will see it and say, "WOW!"

Meanwhile, keep turning these ideas over...

You do hit the ground before the Clubhead reaches Low Point (opposite the Left Shoulder). The Clubhead then travels Down Plane to the Lowest Point of the Stroke. That is why the Divot is taken.

Hang in there, my friend.

The gates are about to be opened.

I found it easier to understand hitting down and the low point once using the reference of the clubhead passing the left shoulder.

Prior to this point if I understand it correctly you can in fact be driving down cause the force originates from the body (hands, arms, shoulders). The reference to the ground is artificial, especially if the horizontal reference is not parallel to the power generating force.

I believe this concept is the rationale behind setting up on slopes such that the shoulder follow the slope.

If one agrees that the low point is when the clubhead passes the left shoulder, then one can understand how the clubhead can actually be moving upward yet it still be a motion that is hitting down, maybe not on the ball, but it is a hitting down motion force from the power generator.

I believe that this often adds to the confusion on golfers who haven't reach the low point with the driver but swear they are hitting up.

Low point defined as ??? When the primary lever has reached full extension - Placing the clubhead furthest from the left shoulder ???

I've been doing some visualization of my own through reading these posts. I believe the visualization I have had of "the swing" is what has been inhibiting me from hitting down on the ball.

Up until now I've pictured the cirle of the swing as having the centerline being an imaginary line from the ball straight up through my body(somewhere around my head depending on ball position) AND... the circle's circumference was only tangent to the surface of the ground. Fundamentally I knew I needed to hit down on the ball to get optimal precision and performance but I never visualized what that would require... a sector of the circle being in the ground and the concept of the low point being the left shoulder (i.e. the required center and radius neeed to hit down on the ball!).

Reading, re-reading and absorbing these conversations is providing a whole new visualization of the golf swing and I am a person who is a visual learner (conceptually and in the real world). I have also taken on starting to read the book from the beginning and a lot of things that were foggy to me are now gaining clarity.

My impact bag should arrive this week and I can't wait to practice with it. I'm beginning to experience more "ah-hah's" and it's exciting!!

Thanks to all of you guys,

Michael

Defining Low Point
 

In the geometrically-corect Stroke, the Low Point of the Clubhead Arc occurs when the Stroke Radius -- the Left Arm and Club (Primary Lever Assembly) -- points directly toward the ground. That point is directly opposite the Center of the Arc, i.e., the Left Shoulder. See Sketch 2-K #2.

Are you saying that the Left Shoulder is square or can they be open and still the the low point be the same? In otherwords the lever assembly doesn't need to be perpendicular to the shoulders?

Tick Tock
 

Consider the pendulum of a grandfather clock. It hangs from a hinge pin and operates in a vertical plane. Where it points directly toward the floor is the lowest point of it arc. No matter which way you turn the clock, the low point is always opposite pin.

The Golf Stroke takes place on an Inclined Plane, but the principle is the same.

Guys, I just can't hold myself back on this one...

Doesn't the hinge pin on the grandfather clock move, since the Left Shoulder is clearly moving during the golf stroke?

How does this fact change anything, if at all?

Well it doesn't change the fact that Low Point is still opposite Left Shoulder.

But Left Shoulder is constantly moving!

:confused: :p

Lets discuss!

Good stuff Mike.

There's some more visual stuff in here:

http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfschool/...es.php?gs_id=1
http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfschool/...es.php?gs_id=2
http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/for...,down,drive r
http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/for...,down,drive r
http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/for...,down,drive r

Centered Arc
 

The Left Shoulder -- the center of the Clubhead Arc -- does indeed move. But, it does so in its own centered arc, the circumference of the Shoulder Turn around the Spine as its Axis. This satisfies the requirements for a Centered Arc and enables the Line of Compression, i.e., the pressure of the Ball against the Clubface, to be sustained (2-H).

This is why the Stationary Head is so important. It provides a major assurance that the Left Shoulder will return precisely to its Impact Fix location in preparation for Impact.

But this centered arc which you call the Spine -- Tilts! -- during Start Down. Hence the Axis has Tilted even with the Stationary Head.

Does this fact change anything, if at all?

The center of Clubhead Arc is the Left Shoulder.
But the Left Shoulder moves also...
The center of the Left Shoulder arc is the Spine.
But the Spine Tilts...
The story continues...:)

Tilt Talk
 

Yes, the Downstroke Axis Tilt (as initiated by the Hip Turn) does indeed change things.

Ideally, the Stationary Head Location, the Impact degree of Axis Tilt, the Left Shoulder-to-Ball Radius and the On Plane Right Shoulder are established in Section 2 of the Stroke, Impact Fix (7-8 ). The Adjusted Address -- Section 3 -- normally features the same Head location, but much less Tilt, a lower Left Shoulder and a higher Right Shoulder.

Unless the Impact Fix degree of Tilt is restored during the Downstroke, neither the Right Shoulder nor the Left can return to their assigned Impact locations.