Does anybody own a Flail?
 

Just curious . . . Have any of y'all ever actually used one of these Impliments? Never seen one in person. I may check ebay out.

Also, I wonder why there isn't a flail type apparatus in the Machine Concept in 1-L? Or did I miss something?

Per 2-K, "Compare the Primary Lever Assembly (6-A-2) with the common flail." The Law of the Flail is the Swinger's primary concern.

I watched a lot of Kung Fu with David Caradene as a kid. I had some nunchucks (sp?). Those things put lumps all over my head. So I can vouch for the effective velocity.

LOL! I'm with ya there!!!

Two Dowels And A Thong
 

Check your homespum video, Colonel. My guess is that I demo-ed both the farmer's flail (two dowels and a thong / 2-K #1-#3) and the Golfer's Flail (two hinged boards / 2-K #4 and #5).

Regarding a "flail type apparatus" in 1-L, forgeddaboudit. Sketch 1-L -- Golf Stroke Geometry -- is irrespective of Power.

Hold up! We're talking G.O.L.F. not The Cheeta Club right?
 

I don't know about you but I left my thong at home that day =; .

I do recall now . . . it was the demo of Throw Out yep you are correct sir!

What exactly did a farmer do with the flail? Chop off chicken heads? I reckon there is a big mechanical advantage to something with regards to agricultural persuits. Piggy Wiggy is about as close to farm as I come . . . unless you count the meth lab in the basement :???: .

And since we're at it . . . what the heck is a "rope handle?" I know luv-handles intimately but rope handle is a head scratcher for Bucket.

Axe Handle Versus Rope Handle
 

The Hitter's Clubshaft acts as an Axe Handle that he Pushes radially (from behind) through Impact. The Swinger's Clubshaft acts as a piece of rope -- the Rope handle -- that he Pulls longitudinally (lengthwise) through Impact.

Remember, you can push on the Axe Handle, but...

You can't push on a rope handle.

But you can pull on an Axe Handle, can't you? I always wonder why this never gets mentioned.

Axe handle
 

Funny you should mention it, while splitting firewood the other day, I decided I'm a swinger. With the axe that is.

Splitting wood is swinging.... Longitudinal acceleration ....Chopping down a tree is hitting....Radial acceleration...pushing from behind!!!!

Respectfully disagree, still swinging just on a different plane.
Although I do prefer a chainsaw for chopping down trees.

Axe Handles For All
 

The Axe Handle versus Rope Handle analogy is useful in differentiating Radial Acceleration (Hitting) from Longitudinal Acceleration (Swinging) and the respective techniques employed (Push or Pull).

You can, of course, Pull on an Axe Handle, but it still will function as "a piece of string." A stiff piece of string to be sure, but a piece of string nonetheless. And the Swinger will benefit from using a stiff piece of string.

Homer Kelley felt very strongly that all golfers -- not just 'good golfers' -- would benefit from Clubs with a stiff shaft flex. In our Authorized Insructor Masters Class of January 1982, he stated this conclusion in no uncertain terms:

"It would be best if they all came with axe handles."

"Homer Kelley felt very strongly that all golfers -- not just 'good golfers' -- would benefit from Clubs with a stiff shaft flex."

What explaination did he give for that Lynn?

Why A Stiff Shaft?
 

The stiffer Shaft better resists the Impact Collision and also promotes less Clubface deviation both prior to and during Impact.

Remember, for Swingers, Centrifugal Force is driving the Sweetspot, not the Clubshaft. It is functioning merely as a piece of string that, in fact, is being stiffened by the outward pull of Centrifugal Force itself. So, other than being of sturdy construction and for the reasons cited, Shaft Flex means little to the Swinger.

For the Hitter, though, Shaft Flex is mission-critical. He demands a stiff Shaft against which to push the Clubhead Lag through Impact.

I believe you can easily get a shaft that's too stiff for you.

I'm no expert clubfitter...so someone may explain the consequences of a too stiff a shaft.

It's all about optimisation...not necessarily maximisation (i.e. max stiffness).

Stiff Shaft Stuff
 

That is the conventional wisdom, Leo. Always has been. Homer Kelley -- and Karsten Solheim, founder of Ping -- believed otherwise.

On what facts do you base your opinion?

:)

stiff shaft for hitter
 

Tried my friends new 2006 Cleveland Launcher yesterday, with a stiff shaft, whereas my old-style Launcher has regular flex. Have been leaning towards hitting recently and indeed, the stiff shaft felt pretty good. Was also chipping balls with my driver the other day, and at that speed you can feel that shaft bending back as you impact the ball - which also made me wonder if stiffer shafts might be better.

Yoda, for a hitter would a stiffer shaft help primarily with control/accuracy or distance? Or would it have an effect on both?

Chris

I'm sure Ted Fort (Yodasluke) could share some of his experience regarding shaft flex. I know Paul Smith (http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/v....php?page=pros) believes that shaft flex matters, and stiffer is not necessarily better. Brian Manzella also has some clubfitting knowledge and maybe he could share his thoughts.

The message I got from Homer is go use the stiffest shaft you can find and play with that.

The logic is that only a stiffer shaft can minimise clubface twisting through impact. Which is true...but there are other properties in the shaft that contribute to a good golf shot too. The stiffest shaft may not give the optimal ball flight.

I heard Yoda got custom fitted with HG. I'm sure he didn't just say, "no need to fit my shaft...just give me the stiffest one you have!" Or maybe he did (?). I say that with only a little bit of tongue-in-cheek :D .

While we're on this topic, let me raise another point. Homer also said lie angle doesn't matter because the unevenness of the golf course even when the ball is on the fairway will easily offset the couple of degrees of difference in lie angle of the club. Now I know some very knowledgeable people (i.e. has knowledge in TGM and clubfitting) who disagree with that.

Sorry this post isn't very scientific, I'm no expert in this area.

stiffness
 

In this department, I only have my personal experience in fitting to give. For what that's worth, here it is:

I use the stiffest, steel shafts in my irons that Henry-Griffitts offers. From the appearance of the step-downs, I'd estimate they are in the X100 range of dynamic shafts. To my recollection, Yoda uses the shaft that's one step lower than mine. All are "Pured", including the putter. I do have graphite shafts in my driver and 5 wood. They are also very stiff and "Pured". History has shown me that hitters prefer stiff and heavy, and swingers are all over the map. Some of the best engineering minds (Karsten and Kelley) have always been proponents of 'stiffer is better'. Karsten had 90 year old women playing stiff shafts. I think that might have been a little overboard with an ideal, though I wouldn't have chosen an engineering duel with the man. Maybe Karsten was a closet hitter. ;)

My own hypothesis is this:
You need to use whatever shaft allows you to sense lag pressure. When fitting using trial and error, there tends to be A shaft that becomes the one for every individual. Centeredness of the strikes becomes better, along with trajectory, and distance. Some have surprised me by needing stiffer shafts and some needing weaker shafts. But, once you find the one that works, it's hard to rationalize making it stiffer. I've also found that it's not all about velocity. Clubhead speed does not equal stiffness of the shaft. There is a mass component.

I know that when I use a more flexible shaft, I can hit it off the planet to the right. It feels like I'm over-stressing the shaft. The stiffer the shaft means the more accurate I become. I find it difficult to push a rope.

lie angle
 

Also from personal experience, I'd have to say lie angles can make a difference. One of my best friends and co-workers, Steve Ferguson, wouldn't be able to play with my clubs. I'm about six feet tall and have very long arms. Steve on the other hand is about 5'6" and also has very long arms, for his height. I use a 38" 5 iron and a standard lie angle, and Steve uses a 37 1/2 inch 5 iron that's 6 degrees flat! That alone should debunk the myth I've heard that Henry-Griffitts fitters fit everyone long and upright. I've also fit a man that was 6'11" in a club that was 6 degrees upright and 3" longer than standard. These are the extremes, but I can only marvel at the differences in the strokes after being properly fit.

Homer Kelley and the Facts
 

Careful, here, Leo. :)

I spent a week personally with Homer Kelley and a year or so on the phone with him on both sides of that week. Further, I have on disc all three of his GSEM (Golf Stroke Engineering Master) Classes (some eighty hours of audio recordings). In all that experience, I have yet to hear the words you have attributed to him.

He has said that the cambered iron sole and the ever-ready Right Forearm permits positioning between the various Planes, but he never said "Lie angle doesn't matter." In fact, Club Guru Ralph Maltby was in one of his early 'lecture series' classes (arranged by Ben Doyle for interested professionals), and he showed Homer the now familiar club-with-rod-extending- from-the-Clubface to illustrate how lie angle affects Clubface alignment. Homer was impressed with this visual, and he noted the demonstrated fact in 2-D-0:

"Tilting the Leading Edge changes the Clubface alignment. Up--to the left. Down--to the right. Merely deviating from the Address Plane Angle will do this by tilting the Clubshaft."

More and more I see personal agendas being promoted -- not yours -- with unchallenged, unsubstantiated statements such as "Homer said this or Homer said that and this particular tour player is obviously not doing this or that." Or "Lynn teaches only this kind of student in only this way or that." Or hypotheticals such as "If Homer was still alive he would change his thinking because of this or that." Or even "If Homer was teaching in a driving range setting he wouldn't be successful because of this or that."

To all of which I say...

First, ignore the hypotheticals.

As to the statements of 'fact:'

Consider the source.

Demand proof.

Homer did.

And so do I.

Bye Mike
 

Mike,

You are a great Ball Striker and a 'nice guy' in person. However, I find your continued negative, baiting behavior on this site both inexplicable and abominable. Whatever you've got against Ted and me is now between you and your guidance counselor.

Post as you will elsewhere, but you are no longer welcome here, and effective immediately, you are banned from our site.

A quickie to add to this thread.

Conventional fitting these days is to play with the lightest most flexible shaft "that you can control". Homer (from the thread) says "Stiffer better".

I have fitted people with the view of 'that you can control' being the leading issue. If you are a swinger you can feel a lagging clubhead MORE with a whippy shaft as its still "way back there" vs a stiffer rod.

Yoda, what did Homer say about shaft Torque as that is all about the clubface twisting though impact and of course release too?

Players with better release mechanisms fit with stiffer shafts. Lesser golfing mortals generally feel more with a softer flex.
Torque wise same.

I personally like flexible shafts with low torque but I stress that is for my own clubs.

Hope that adds a bit of a twist to the to the conversation.

The Less Torque The Better
 

Thanks for adding to this discussion, Paul.

Regarding Shaft Torque, we didn't have the sophisticated measurements available today, but when it came to 'wobbly' Clubfaces, Homer Kelley felt that 'less is more.'


:rolleyes: :D

are you the legend?
 

Are you the legendary PAUL HART from Australia and mentor to STEVE KHATIB? If so, we met at the Australian Super School for HG. If I've got the right man, you'll be a great asset to those in this forum. Thank you for helping to shed light on any subject on this site. You and Steve were true gentlemen and made all of us Americans feel welcome when we were "Down Under".
Ted Fort

Wrong Paul...Paul Smith here in golfguru:)

Paul Hart and I are working on doing some stuff down under to get TGM better known to the masses. PHart is about 3000 miles from me currently in Melbourne.

Yup us Aussies are generally pretty friendly:p

the other Paul
 

I've got a friend at Royal Melbourne. We could meet and play a round or two. Maybe I can talk Yoda into going to the land down under. I would love to have Steve and Paul x 2 to meet Yoda. It would be an awesome meeting of the minds. Maybe we could have a Pacific Rim summit. There are some in the Orient that have traveled to the swamp that might want to come, too. Let's keep that on the front burner. ;)

Sorry Yoda, I have no "facts" to back up my claim that the stiffest shaft is not the best for everyone. But, YodasLuke has mentioned the shafts you're currently using are one step less stiff than his. Why don't you yourself use the stiffest of shafts?
Guys, this discussion may sound a bit heated, but as usual I'm here to learn and see what others have to say :)

Hi-Jackin!!!!
 

:D Hey you boys have Jacked my thread!!!!

If you want to talk about Shaft Stiffness go to the little boys room! This thread was supposed to be about

BEATIN' YOUR WHEAT AND PULLIN' YOUR ROPE!!!!!


Now back to the matter at hand . . .

This paragraph was wacked by Mr. K from the 5th edition pretty much:

A Ball-related Release (10-19-0) for Swingers can be produced by using Right Arm Thrust instead of Body Momentum to resist Clubhead slow-down during extension, if there is sufficient Clubhead inertial to restrict Lag Pressure thrust (6-C) to only an Extensor Action Application (6-B-1-D, 2-M-3). Its execution must produce a true centrifugal Throw-Out action as outlined in 6-B-3-0. This Throw-Out action is termed herein as "Centrifugal Acceleration" to indiciate that Centrifugal Force (Centrifugal Reaction), not muscle, is propelling the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Golf Club) into Impact. So Swingers are totally dependent on their skill at manipulating Centrifugal Force while Hitters are not. But Study 4-D, 6-F-0 and 6-R-0.


So since we are advised to compare the Primary Lever Assembly with the common flail, WHAT DOES THE RIGHT ARM CONTRIBUTE IN THIS ANALOGY? Structure via Extensor Action only? The right hand is certainly attached to the flail apparatus but what DO IT DO?

Thanks!

B

Shaft Flex: To Each His Own
 

Not 'heated' from my end at all, Tong. :)

What I said in my post #10 above was that Homer Kelley believed that golfers of all abilities would benefit from stiff shafts. [I think the S400 in my irons and X100 in my woods qualify!] However, in most cases, they play with the more flexible, 'regular' Shafts either recommended to them or that they buy 'off the rack.' You have stated your opinion that a golfer can "easily get a shaft that is too stiff." Apparently, others agree.

The REAL dope on shaft stiffness.
 

ALL FACTS below....

Shaft stiffness is one thing, shaft frequency is another.

You can make two clubs with IDENTICAL STIFFNESS, but the one with the lightess head will have the HIGEST FREQUENCY and 'play' stiffer.

In any and every one shaft type (ie. dynamic, precision FM, rifle, project x rifle, etc), there is ONE BEST FREQUENCY for every golfer.

Here is the ONLY way that that frequency for a particular shaft can be found.

Test clubs have to be 'put together' where ALL the other variable remain the same, but the FREQUENCY CHANGES. Then the player must hit 'em all, blind test (don't know which one they are using), and the 'fitter'/observer will be able to tell which is best.

I talked to both HOT STIXS and GOLFING BY DESIGN about this at the PGA SHOW. They both agreed that this was the 'best' method, but would be hard to do due to cost. HG has a screw in system, but IMO needs more differenent frequency shafts at about 5 cycles apart to do the testing correctly. Bill MacDonald, CEO of HG, told me they could make up a fitting cart anyway you wish, so it CAN be done.

I have asked this question IN PERSON to people like BOB BUSH, and they all agree, that this (the above) is 100% true.

As far as "the stiffer the better".....not if you want it to perform the best for any particular golfer.

Found the Flail
 

Anyone want a training flail?????
http://www.metalwoodbats.com/store/products/86.aspx

This flail would be easy to make - all you need is a wood baseball bat and some screw eye hooks.