Originally Posted by tgmnut

Okay, I've been hitting for a little while now, and I have two swings posted on the internet to hopefully get some feedback. In a couple of days I hope to have two down the line shots, but oh well. Anyways, my question is what one or two three things should I isolate and try to work on. Any ideas are appreciated.
Thanks

http://www.moozcat.com/swing.html

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket

Dude you make the same move I make . . . . a foward Sway. You need Axis Tilt and your Head needs to stay back.

From down the line you have to be over the Plane and Roundhousing.

You have to get your Hips moving before your Shoulders. The Right Hip has to clear so your Right Shoulder can move Down and not OUT. Also you head needs to stay back more.

To you it's going to feel like HUGE reverse C . . . but when you watch it will not be.

I'll be interested to hear what others say because I do the same thing. At least to me it hasn't been easy going.

Maybe try starting your downswing with the hip moving forward while they are still turned . .. also feel like somebody has an ice pick right at your left temple and if you move forward . . . see ya!

Where are your misses? Flare rights and snappers? Your hands looked good . . . but educated hands can only do so much to overcome a faulty pivot.

Time for the heavies to chime in . . . I'm with you man! I need to get this thing licked too.

Originally Posted by tgmnut

Okay, I've been hitting for a little while now, and I have two swings posted on the internet to hopefully get some feedback. In a couple of days I hope to have two down the line shots, but oh well. Anyways, my question is what one or two three things should I isolate and try to work on. Any ideas are appreciated.
Thanks

http://www.moozcat.com/swing.html

Originally Posted by tgmnut

:BangHead:


You nailed it, flare rights and snappers, although snaps are rare, I don't flip my hands very often. I kind of thought I had too much forward sway, but I wanted some confirmation from someone else. Thanks. Okay people, keep it comin'.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket

Dude . . . You and I have twin golf swings . . . My hands are good but my Pivot and Plane is whackdiddy-whack.

Take deep divots?

I'll be here learning from advice directed to you! Maybe we should take up a collection . . . pass the plate!

Oh and another thing too . . . when you address the ball and look down at your hands . . . can you see the grip cap? If so how much all, some or none? Looks like to me you have a pretty turned left hand but you are at Adjusted Address and not Fix so it's hard to say 100%. You put this in the Hitting Section so I would assume you Hit? If so you may want to work on a Fix Address and definitely get your Right Forearm in the Plane of the Clubshaft. If that don't make sense we can talk about the Right Forearm Flying Wedge because you need to become intimate with the RFFW if you are gonna be a hitter.

Also if you do have a turned left hand and you want to keep it that way (10-2-D Grip), you need to understand how to release the club based on your grip type.

Holla Back! Hopefully someone can better address how to get you Tilted because I can't do that myself . . . but you need to do it.

B

Originally Posted by tgmnut

B,
I can barely see the grip cap if at all at address, but I'm curious as to why you ask. Also, I am at adjusted address, and left wrist is usually pretty vertical, not turned. I think the size and shape of my hand has something to do with that illusion. I do hit, and I know that most hitters use a fix address with their right forearm on plane to help maintain the RFFW, but I am much more comfortable with the classic address. I experimented with both when I started hitting and I have had much better luck with the classic address. The very first move back in my motion is me setting my right forearm on plane, which I do pretty consistently. After reading your first comments I went back and watched both videos and I think I make a pretty big sway towards the target with my irons, but not nearly as much of one with my driver. Which may explain why I do take deep divots pretty frequently like you guessed. Let's see if we can't lick these faults. I'm all in with ya' to fix this stuff.

R

Originally Posted by tgmnut

Okay 12 Piece, now that I understand completely what you mean and I have been to the driving range, I have to change my answer. The heel pad on my hand usually blocks my view of the grip cap. When taking my normal grip I can see probably over 3/4ths of the grip cap at classic address and pretty much all of it at impact fix. Also, thanks Surf! At the range I hit almost every ball with an open stance. I laid down a club pointing at the target, then took my stance open relative to the club. After experimenting just a little with ball position I was hitting the ball more solid, straighter, and definitely higher with my 7 iron (a little higher with driver). Hey Bucket, what do think of the open stance thing? Seems to me if Ted and Lynn had Surf do it, it might not be a bad thing.
Holla
Just remembered, my divots shallowed out quite a bit. Very nice to see. Any chance you have video of your swing I could see?

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket

Remember per 2-J-2 . . . "Don’t hesitate to change your Stance Line – for physical and psychological reasons or for the situation at hand. Stance Line does not affect the Plane or Target Line. Just use the corresponding Pivot per 10-12 and don’t be misled by the apparent results – your “Down-the-Target-Line Impact” could be just a well executed Push Shot. Even from an ASSUMED Square-Square position. And your apparently Outside-In Impacts may actually be fine Pull Shots. Study 2-L.

The Plane Line is the BOSSMAN . . . and he don't care about your feet. I like the open stance. If you hit what are you going to do though? Are you using the Geometric Plane Line and tracing it? Or are you going to use the 10-5-E Visual Equivalent Plane Line Cross-Line to Right Field?

There are PLENTY of the dudes that make enough money to buy and sell me and you and Mike O that play from an Open Stance. So smoke 'em if you got 'em my friend. My favorite of all time Lee Buck does it . . . so make it happen Capt'n.

I'm not smart enough to figure out how to get video of my flickdid move out here. I have an 8mm video camera. I can mail you a tape though.

How big a boy are you? What's your handicap? Do you hit the short irons better than the long irons? Can you hit the driver straight? I was just wondering cause we may have been separated at birf. I of course being much much prettier'n you.

Originally Posted by tgmnut

Not really sure how to differentiate between using the true geometric and the 10-5-E cross line. I just know that using an open stance felt great and worked great.

If you wanna mail me a tape I'd be happy to look at it, and I might be able to get it posted for you. Not sure, though.

I'm about 5' 11" and 200 lbs, pretty solid. Played linebacker and left tackle way back in high school. 'Bout a 10 hcp mainly due to not hitting any of my irons extremely well. Little better with my short irons, though. I do drive the ball pretty well. Usually straight, not much fade or draw, and almost always 280-310. And about the prettier part, the ladies luv the Mr. Clean look.

How 'bout you? Build, hcp, drives, irons, etc?

R

Originally Posted by tgmnut

I have new video up of my swing after 2 days of trying to eliminate my forward sway. Feedback please!!!

http://www.geocities.com/robmont64/swing2.html

Originally Posted by tgmnut

Hey Big Sexy, (man that sounds wrong)
My ball flight is higher and definitely straighter. My divots are much better as well. They were too deep before. As for the two swings posted on the geocities website, the one on bottom felt like a better swing and the ball was struck more solidly. What do you see in my swing now that you don't like? I'm craving feedback. Thanks.
p.s. what do you mean looks like i punched a midget in the face? is that a good thing?

Originally Posted by bambam

I don't like how you lay the club off early and then try to get it back on plane...I don't like it because it's one of my biggest problems :) Hitters don't need to swivel the club like that, just pick it up with your right arm and punch it w/ your stump. Looks like you could let that right elbow fly a little, too. Check out the down the line video of Ted in the gallery and compare your down the line view with his.

That looks like my backyard! Boilers? You still in Indiana?

Originally Posted by tgmnut

Where's Summitville?

Originally Posted by Mike O

TGM Nut,
Really too much too discuss- I'll just hit the high points of my analysis.

You my friend are an ATHLETE! With that body you can flat out KILL IT!

Of course, not to start some big debate but you are absolutely a swinger- with angled hinging (don't get caught up in that not worth it- anotherwords it just is- if you decide to make certain other changes in your movement then it will change)

If you are just trying to fix a forward sway by whatever method say keeping your head back- and everything stays the same - you'll never fix it! Personally, I look at the big picture and what's going on here? Power, Power, and more Power! How do you emphasize it? Body goes down and forward on the downswing- that sets up the power move- which is the second half of the downswing to impact- you Pull up, Pull up, Pull up! What do you pull up with - everything!- the more mass you can get involved the further the ball goes! The actual effort is more Pull up and make that club head move to the right to maximize the lagging clubhead, Pull up and keep fighting that clubhead lag by making it go straight to the target or out to the right! Hey, it's a great way to have a powerful swing. And even that clubface wanting to make that horizontal hinge motion via centrifugal force is an additional lag affector because you're fighting that also- creating more lag. You're a lag junkie. So Power wise you have no issues- however, accuracy is fleeting- certainly not as consistent day to day as you would like it- you either have it that day or you don't! And each new day is a mystery until you're three holes into the round and realize the pattern of consistency for that day - whether it's good or not.

So besides the "forward sway"- what else happens as a result of that general "move" that I described- or better said what other problems do you have as a result of your chosen method of applying power? Not much hip rotation accomplished at impact. Notice the lack of spine tilt as you straighten out of it. Also, notice the really high hands after impact and into the finish- a much more vertical plane. The Chicken wing left elbow after impact - somehow works with these issues. In addition, it's all about getting that power into the ball- afterwards the finish is just impact fallout and not a destination for you - as the club bounces off the back and down to your side.

So that's what I see- the big picture and then how all the little pictures tie into the same big picture. So the question is this - Can you let go of the power mind set over the short term- 2-4 years- as you develop a more sound and accurate game - one that will eventually have an opportunity to actually hit the ball further but in the short term will not allow you to hit it as far? Not an easy road to take- believe me I know! Probably comes down to how badly you want to be a lot better and what your willing to do to get better.

Personally I wouldn't start with the forward "sway"- it's too integral to your pattern - you need to make easier changes first - and then eventually you can attack the forward sway if it is there still and you feel that you want to change it.
The easier changes are:

1) Work on maintaining the spine angle through impact and into the finish- Sorry no more pulling up for power!,

2) Professional Pose your finish on each swing-
A) for consistency,
B) To check if you still have spine tilt- which means you had it through impact

You can infer more changes from my post above - not so important which one you do- The question is which ones can you do and still hit the ball fairly well- while you are making the change?

How do I know all that- because I've done all those swings myself by experimenting at one time or another.

Said you wanted feedback- that's mine- good luck with the game.

P.S. it goes without saying that you need to go full out with all your shots including the short irons- because if you don't you mess the pattern up- you don't have that heavy lag feel etc.- of course if you are doing that and not hitting them accurately- then your one course of action is to say "swing more in control" and that is where you need to head but that thought won't work well with your swing- you need to change the movement first. You may have in the past flipped flopped between full out short shots and efforts to swing the shorter irons "in control". Unfortunately, while that's what makes the driver your best club- great lag and fairways that are wide enough where you are not concerned about accuracy- which usually produces good accuracy, but if you get a narrow fairway or have a short iron into the green and think about accuracy for one minute - you're dead! Lag junkies don't usually do well with accuracy thoughts!

Finally, I realize that I'm guessing so i could be completely wrong on all accounts- so if anything helps great- if it is all junk then move on. But if you are able to make those changes then on every golf day- you'll be able to completely control your ball and not just wonder where it will go.

Originally Posted by tgmnut

I have new video up of my swing after 2 days of trying to eliminate my forward sway. Feedback please!!!

http://www.geocities.com/robmont64/swing2.html

Originally Posted by bambam

Great post, Mike. I wondered if he was swinging.

Straightening up for power is one of my tendencies, too. Do you have any good drills for working on a constant spine angle? I've been doing aquired motion and find when I start pulling up for power there's no way I can keep my hands and club from finish swiveling.



45 min to 1 hour almost straight east of you on 28; really close to James Dean's old home of fairmount. My brother-in-law is finishing up vet school at Purdue and my sister works in the IT department. I heard the Purdue courses are pretty nice; I've been meaning to get over there and play a round w/ my brother-in-law.

Originally Posted by tgmnut

Okay Yoda,

Mike O stated earlier that he thought I was swinging. I've been trying to learn hitting for a while, I used to swing. Any chance you could help me clear up whether I should swing or hit?

Originally Posted by Yoda

tgmnut,

There is a lot to like in your Total Motion. I am particularly impressed by your ability to maintain your Flat Left Wrist through Impact. Whether acquired through hard work or athletic birthright, it is the reason you play as well as you do.

As I see it, three major stumbling blocks stand between you and your potential. Here they are, along with my recommended cures...

1. The Start Up. Yours is a very 'Handsy' Full Sweep Action (10-22-A) that results in an exaggerated Left Wrist Turn and an Off Plane Clubshaft as you move into the Backstroke. You stated that you have experimented with both the Impact Address and the Standard Address and that you prefer the latter. I suggest you use it to its full advantage by using your Right Forearm -- not your Turning and Cocking Left Wrist -- to move the Clubshaft back along the Plane Line in Start Up. It will be easy because in Standard Address, your Right Forearm and Clubshaft are pointing at very nearly the same spot on the Plane Line. So, think of this initial move as a 'Flat Right Wrist' Takeaway. Practice this diligently with the Right Forearm and Club only. Drill: Position an Impact Bag behind your Right Foot and on the Arc of Approach. Then, hit it with the Club on the Backstroke using your Flat Right Wrist and Forearm to initiate, direct and sustain the action. Do this over and over until your Right Forearm assumes full control of your Start Up. This will put you well down the road to happy times. :)

2. The downward Bob. I am not nearly so concerned about what is being labeled the 'forward Sway' because you are merely returning to a Centered position. And Tiger has shown us that even the Bob is not exactly a fatal Snare if it is compensated. Nevertheless, your Head is moving way too much. As a result, your Pivot Center is unstable and Centered Arc is in jeopardy. Until you bring this element under control, you will always struggle for consistency. :confused1

3. The Looping Plane Shift. You begin your Stroke on the Elbow Plane and then gradually Shift to the Turned Shoulder Plane. So far, so good. But then, at the Top, you Loop to the very steep Squared Shoulder Plane (10-7-F). All this requires a ton of compensation. The cure -- Pivot correction -- will also go a long way toward curing the above-mentioned Bob.

The first step is understanding exactly how the Pivot should work. Here I would reference the On Plane Shoulder Turn combination of 10-13-D. The student must learn to turn his Right Shoulder as Flat back to the Plane as he can -- you do a good job here -- and then to take the Shoulder directly Down Plane toward the Ball (and not back 'out' to where it came from, i.e., its Address position, which is what you do). And this requires the proper Hip Action -- Slide with a Delayed Turn -- to tilt the spine (the Shoulder Turn's Axis) and enable the Hands to take their desired Straight Line (10-23-A) or Angled Line (10-23-B) Delivery Path to the Ball. So, as a first step, you must work on the Pivot Motion itself without the Arms and Club per Photos 9-1-1/12.

Once you have a crystal clear picture of how the Pivot should function and are able to do make that Motion without Arms and Club, you should immediately turn the control back over to the Hands. This is where the 'magic' will happen.

Without a Club, raise your Right Hand to the Top of your Stroke. Then, leaving the Hand turned palm-up to the Plane, bring the Right Forearm down in a 'karate chop' motion through your line-of-sight to the ball. You will find that the Right Shoulder will cooperate beautifully to enable and suppport that Motion. In fact, it would be quite foreign for the Shoulder to go 'out' and still make the Forearm motion I've described.

Not only will this better keep the Clubshaft On Plane, it will also promote Maximum Trigger Delay of the #3 Accumulator. And that means Maximum Distance. Because of the nature of Right Elbow Participation, Swingers will be able to delay that Release a bit longer than Hitters, but with practice, even Hitters can learn to get that Right Elbow 'past the Ball' before Triggering.

:occasion:

From the Top, you will want to Feel the Pivot's Pull of the Arms and Club -- practice Start Down Waggles endlessly -- directly toward the Plane Line. Regarding what 'spot' to Pull toward from the Top, just Pull toward the Plane Line. Since you are always pulling the club lengthwise in the direction it is pointing, and since that direction is changing every split second, the specific point you are Pulling toward is likewise changing. So, just pull toward the Line, and you'll get the job done.

In summary, tgmnut, each of these three items are closely related. Learn to use your Tracing Right Forearm to stay On Plane in Start Up and to guide your Stroke to a Turned Shoulder Plane at the Top. Then, use the Magic of the Right Forearm to deliver the Club Down Plane into Impact on either the Turned Shoulder Plane (Single Shift / 10-7-B) -- probably your most 'comfortable' alternative at this point -- or on your original Elbow Plane (Double Shift / 10-7-C). This focus on Hand-Controlled-Pivot will train your Body to support -- not bully -- the Hands. Finally, work on keeping your Head Stationary. Your reward will be Centered Arc and a new level of consistency.

Originally Posted by tgmnut

Yoda, Bambam, Mike O, 12 Piece,
I don't know how to thank you guys enough. All this feedback is incredible. I do feel like I hit the golf instruction lottery, as 12 Piece said. You're not kidding Denny, that was definitely worth some money. Mike, you're absolutely right, my swing has always been about hitting the ball as far as I can, even when I've tried to force myself to swing more under control. Yoda, I thought last night after watching my swing that I had that loop, but I wasn't sure I was seeing things quite right. Thanks for confirming my suspicion. I was also pretty sure I was lost in that scary nether world of switting, but I've thought that for a while. Mike, thanks for the huge response. I completely overlooked the fact that I was standing up and losing my spine angle. Also, you made me realize something else. I've been an athlete my whole life and I think sometimes I think too much and make things harder than they need to be. One other thing, I am more than willing to give up some of that power I crave if I can get it back and become much more accurate and consistent in the process. I am very driven to get better and I don't really care what it takes right now, I just want to be damn good at this game. I'm going back to the range in the morning and hope to have more video posted by tomorrow night. Thanks again for everything guys!
nut

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket

Mike you may want to recruit this bruser to do your lite work.

He could probably hold up the Gremlin and drop it on peoples' heads.

Now G.O.L.F. . . . How come I need to fix my Forward Sway and he gets to keep his? Is it because I am a wus and he is a giant stud?

Originally Posted by Mike O

Funny - in regards to thinking- I thought before I posted that it was somewhat odd- or not quite the norm - that an athlete such as yourself would be drawn to TGM- normally you guys just do it (No I'm not talking NIKE here!)

Here is my additional advice to your follow-up post. While you might think that - "Hey! All this thinking is just holding back my natural ability- therefore let's not think so much"- nothing could be further from the truth. Although, believe me I understand the feeling. In fact, you may have already gone back and forth on those two philosophys many times in your golfing career. Certainly if you're at a fork in the road and you've got to decide- "Do I go down the left hand road and just use my athletic ability" or "do I go down the right hand road and try to figure out and consciously apply movement concepts to swing a golf club"- You know the left hand road will look the easiest and in fact when you're on it it'll seem the easiest- but then at some point when you don't get better you've got to apply some knowledge- anotherwords you need to get back on that other road. When you start to think and apply knowledge and you don't get any better then after some time on that road you're thinking "This isn't helping - I need to get back on the other road"-The Athlete Road- "why am I mentally and physically "forcing" myself to do this when I'm getting worse or not getting better!" So you switch back over to the athlete non-thinking road. Well you get the picture. In summary- my advice- "struggle my friend!" - Take the road less traveled~!

Originally Posted by birdie_man

Ppl tell me I think too much...well....that makes me THINK that they should go to....(insert word).

Originally Posted by tgmnut

I'm pretty sure I can figure that one out.:laughing1 I agree totally. Well, I have some more footage up after trying to heed Yoda's and Mike O's advice. Tell me what you think.
http://www.geocities.com/robmont64/swing3.html

Originally Posted by hg

Are changes that are being suggested ones that can be introduced into a swing and take effect immediately...I would imagine that these are significant enough where it will take hard work and months to work into an effective swing with setbacks at times when one may want to abandon a change.