Yoda hitting and swinging demo question
 

Could someone please help me by pointing out a visual difference between these two strokes. When I play them frame by frame I see no difference. Any help would be appreciated, thank you.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...ndHitting.mpeg

Seeing And Feeling Hitting And Swinging
 

Kebeal,

Your post highlights a major difficulty in teaching, and that is determining whether the Student is a Hitter or a Swinger. As Homer Kelley says in 1-F: "Whether [the Right Arm] participation is active or passive is difficult to detect visually...".

After experiencing thousands of Golf Strokes, an alert and knowldgeable Instructor can come to sense the Motion of the Hitter versus the Swinger. Sometimes, perhaps even most often, the difference is immediately apparent. Particularly in terms of Address Position, Length of Stroke, obvious Loading characteristics, the Release Motion through Impact, the Roll of the Hinge Action and the Finish characteristics.

In the case of my video, I think it is difficult to tell. And that is because I have worked very hard to make sure there is as little difference between them as possible. For example, in this video, I used Standard Address in both. And my Hands stop at or near Right Shoulder high in both. Also, my Body (Pivot) Loads the Lag during the Start Down and transports my Power Package to Release. I Trace the Straight Line Delivery Line in both. [I rarely use the Angle of Approach procedure when I Hit.]

So, I have worked hard to keep the Geometry of the Stroke -- how it looks to others -- as consistent as possible. Nevertheless, the Physics of the Action -- what drives the Club through Impact -- is totally different. In the Swing, my Backstroke was a touch longer, and I Loaded my Left Wrist. During Release, my Left Wrist 'Throws Out' the Club. In the Hit, the Backstroke was slightly shorter, and I Loaded my Right Elbow, and during Release, my Right Elbow Drives Out -- hard. So, the Loading and the Release are the differenting factors. And in my own case, that is very "difficult to detect visually."

But if you could Feel what I Feel...

Wow!

Big Difference!

In Hitting, that piston-like Right Arm Thrust is unmistakeable. As is its active #3 Pressure Point Pressure. In Swinging, that same Pressure Point (and Right Forearm) guides the Stroke but it is passive. I 'crank the Gyroscope' with the Pivot in Start Down and then hang on as Centrifugal Force does the work.

It's fun to be able to do both. If for no other reason than it helps you to better understand your own natural inclinations and how to make your preferred Pattern as pure as possible.

A Message To Those Who Would Libel And Slander Lynn Blake
 

BTW, as an aside to those readers who may frequent another site whose owner seems preoccupied with what I teach and who seems to delight in throwing personal and professional barbs my way every day...

This video is proof positive that I do not teach the Impact Address to all my students. http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...ndHitting.mpeg

In fact, despite the vilification recently endured, I teach the Classic Standard Address to most. For what it's worth, the rest of the 'case' these troubled souls have against me holds the same water. They have learned an incalculable amount from reading me over the past 34 months, and yet their ungrateful and jealous spirits can return only invective and stone.

This site is who I am. What you see and what you read is what you get with Lynn Blake. The attempt to paint me as some kind of 'dark side' force in TGM is ludicrous on its face. As will attest my twenty Professional Contributors on this site and also, my many other friends in TGM around the world.

Word to the not-so-wise and those closely associated:

If these illegal activities continue -- false accusations, illegal tampering with personal website profiles and identities, deliberate and malicous name-calling and characterizations, etc. -- there will be consequences.

I didn't start this 'thing,' but trust me...

I can end it.

I like this post . . . I have you on video from my Swamp dealie and as you say it is VERY difficult to see the difference. I actually think that you can pick it up better in "full speed" view rather than Freeze Frame (was that the J Giles Band?). The Swing looks a little more "swingy" and the Hit looks a little more "punchy."

Why do you "dis" the Angle of Approach? Super Ted is a-foaming at-the-mouth-Angle-of-Approach-rip-you-a-new-one-Hitter right? Mr. K LOVED the Angle of Approach procedure right?

Is your Hitting Trace different than your Swinging Trace?

That site has in large part turned into a bad joke, and it is a damn shame as the person in charge is talented and has a lot of good information.

Why Not the Angle of Approach Procedure?
 

Even to the trained eye, it is definitely easier to visually pick up the nuances 'in motion' versus 'freeze frame.' And for whatever the reason, it is also easier to detect the nuances 'in person' rather than on video. At least it is for me.

For the record, my dear friend and yesterday's birf'day boy, Bucket, I never "dissed" the Angle of Approach" procedure. :) I just choose not to use it. As you can see in the Hitter's Drive Loading Stroke Pattern (12-1-0), the listed Variation is the Square Plane Line (10-5-A). This is the Geometric basis of the Angle of Approach Visual Equivalent and, as such, is always the player's option.

If I had more time to devote to it, that could change. But for now, the steepness of the Backstroke feels artificial to me, and I could not trust it without a lot more work.

That said, Homer felt it was the most sophisticated application of the Hitting procedure. But he also said it wasn't worth the trouble for most players.

Ted goes back and forth between the two. Right now, I think he's 'forth,' but you will need to ask him! :)

Due Process
 

Thank you for that statement of support, mrodock. However, it was not my purpose to recruit LBG friends to my defense -- or rally any naysayers -- and for that reason, yours will be the last post I will let stand on the matter.

No, I will not air my grievances in cyberspace. A civilized society has another process for that.

Counsel has been retained, and unless these unlawful activities cease immediately, I will use it.

Keeping in Rhythm
 

Yoda,

You mention on video that one of the big difference between hitting and swinging is "The Rhythm". You noted that as you were switching between procedures fairly quickly. Can you expand on that comment briefly?

Thanks,

Rhythm -- Hitting And Swinging
 

Rhythm in TGM is defined in terms of RPM -- revolutions per minute. Pace, on the other hand, is defined in terms of MPH -- miles per hour. In other words, Rhythm is the Left Arm and Club (the Primary Lever Assembly) going around their Center (the Left Shoulder Hinge Pin) together. Pace is how fast or how slow those two parts 'go around together.'

So, Rhythm requires that the Left Arm and Clubshaft remain In-Line throughout the Stroke -- or at the very least, during Release ('through the Ball'). This is possible only if the Left Wrist remains Flat. The Flat Left Wrist can be the actual visual version (produced with the Single Action Grips (10-2-A and -B) or its Geometric Equivalent (produced when the Grip is such that the Left Wrist is not visually Flat at Impact, but nevertheless, the Left Arm and Clubshaft remain In-Line).

Now to your question:

Hitters and Swingers both must have Rhythm, but their Rhythms typically are different. That is because the Drive-Out Action of the Hitter produces Angled Hinge Action, and the Throw-Out Action of the Swinger produces Horizontal Hinge Action. And the only difference between those two Hinge Actions -- and Vertical Hinge Action as well -- is the distance the Clubhead travels during the Hinge Action itself, i.e., to the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position).

The key to these respective Rhythms -- Hitter's Rhythm and Swinger's Rhythm -- is the Feel experienced by the player during their Execution. Hitters feel their Angled Hinge Action as 'No Roll.' Swingers feel their Horizontal Hinge Action as 'Roll.'

Those two Feels are miles apart in Execution, and they must be carefully rehearsed in the player's Practice Stroke and Waggle, especially if he would alternate between the two during actual play.

Angle beyond Reproach...(bucket will get it) :)
 

I do like the Angle of Approach procedure. There are times that I'll use 10-5-A and times that I'll use 10-5-E. I like using E when I'm working on down and out thrust, and I find it very safe in competition. Since I only swing in demonstrating, I have little use for the 10-5-A, anymore.

It's personally entertaining to take a wedge, send it out about thirty degrees right of the target, and watch the ball go dead straight.

Bossmang . . . One would NOT want to execute Angled Hinging with Sequenced Wrist Action either no?

TeddyLawng. . . . What say you about the Divergence of the Delivery Line and the Clubface?

I think many would assume that the above quote I bolded would result in a big fat hook . . . Tell 'em why it just ain't so! That is the beauty of the Angle of Approach Procedure . . . it ain't for girlie mens is it?!?!

That would be called Special Wrist Action, 10-18-F.

Naw . . . I'm saying Standard Wrist Action Backstroke and then Single Downstroke producing Angled Hinging. . . Special is the inverse right?

From the Grandstand
 

These guys are good!

:salut:

How right you are...
 

That's right Bucket....:)

Could I pay you to consult with my wife?

Consultation of a very different kind...
 

Sure...you can always PM me. :rolleyes:

Hi Yoda, what's your preferred Pattern?

Two Of My Favorite Things
 

Tongzilla,

I can honestly say that I have no 'preferred' Pattern. I love to Swing, and I love to Hit. And I love to 'tinker'...to see if I can Hit a little Pitch Shot from Special Address (10-9-D / Hands in classic Address Positon and Body Open and in Impact Position). Or even from the Standard Address (10-9-A / Left Wrist Bent and Right Wrist Flat). Or if I can Swing from Impact Address (10-9-B / Hands and Body in Standard Impact Fix). Or if I can can execute Flop Shots Hitting. Or hit low-flying, burning Wedge Shots Swinging. I love to feel that dull ache in my Right Hand forefinger at the end of a good Hitting session. And I love to feel the 'Free-Wheeling' of the Clubhead through Impact in a 'Crank the Gyroscope and let'er fly' Swing.

Learning to Hit has made me a much better Swinger. I never truly experienced Lag Pressure Point Pressure until I learned to create it in the Hitting Stroke. Once I got 'access' to that Pressure, I was able to recreate it in the Swinging Stroke, despite its Passive Participation. Just this last Sunday afternoon, I found myself sensing strongly the #3 Pressure Point at the Finish of my Swinging Stroke. I had just Traced the Straight Plane Line through Impact, and the Ball had exploded off the face of my Club.

"The Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point..." said Homer Kelley to me in 1982, "...you're gonna want to insure'm for a million bucks."

Hitting or Swinging, that statement is as true today as it was then, although the application is different for each. And it is a true joy to experience that differentiation in a given Stroke.

Bottom line:

Both Patterns are so much a part of me now that it would be very difficult for me to envision a G.O.L.F. World in which I could not do both.

:)

Nice answer Yoda :)

Just so I fully comprehend what you're saying...

Lets say you were in the final round of your club champs, and you had a simple bread and butter drive you need to hit long and straight. Are you saying you might Swing or Hit that shot depending purely on how you feel that day -- as opposed to any mechanical reasons such as "I usually hit it further with Swinging" or "I usually hit it straighter with Hitting"?

Anyhow, it must be a great feeling having complete mastery and understanding of both procedures, and knowing that you are one of the few people in the world that possess these skills.

The Essence
 

With everything on the line...

Hitting or Swinging...

I would 'Drag my Wet Mop' -- sustain Clubhead Lag -- from the Top through Follow-Through to as far as I could into the Finish.

I've heard it said before on this site that learning to hit can improve swinging. Besides familiarizing the player with the feel of PP3, in what other ways can hitting help to improve swinging? While we're at it, in what ways can learning to swing help a hitter?

Duck Hunt
 

Bigwill,

With Swinging, Centrifugal Force does so many things to help.

-- It aligns the Clubshaft.

-- It aligns the Clubface.

-- It thrusts the Clubhead.

Pity the poor Hitter.

He must do all three...with absolutely no help from 'Mother Nature.' Since only his Thrust is different, he must know -- and be able to supply -- all the other alignments.

Bottom Line:

Hitting is much harder to learn than Swinging.

But once you know it...

It is easier.

Two reasons to learn Hitting:

1. When you Hit, you are never out of your Impact alignments.

2. When you can Hit, you know the mission-critical Swinging Alignments.

At this point, Swinging becomes...

"...like shooting ducks in a pond."

-- Homer Kelley

So in the sequence of learning should one start with swinging...move to hitting....or would that be a decision based on an evaluation of the player's initial natural tendencies.

Bobby Nichols - Classic Hitter!
 

Check out this beautiful action...

Notice in Frame 11, the finish swivel per 4-D-0, "But all players must "Swivel" - actually rotate their Wrists - into the "parallel to the Plane" position for the Finish (8-12) after the Followthrough.

Who is that?

Weiskopf?

Not to threadjack my own thread, but would that be an example of a double shift in the stroke sequence. Elbow plane to turned shoulder plane(?) back to elbow plane. Is that right?

Thanks,

Kevin

Thanks, Lynn. I'm definitely a natural swinger, despite my physical dimensions. Maybe I ought to delve into hitting, and see where it leads me....

Kind of looks like it to these untrained eyes.

Bobby Nichols

Comdpa... Your title of your post

Bobby Nichols - Classic Hitter

Can you tell me how you see him as a hitter and why.

To me it appears he is a swinger but I would be interested to hear how you came to your conclusion.

Thanks

Before comdpa answers I'll give it a go . . .

Not much clubface rotation, short backswing, straightening of the right arm through impact, angled hinging.

"Hitting is pushing and Swinging is pulling" - Homer Kelley

In Frame 5 - Top (8-6):
Bobby has assembled his Power Package just a touch over the Top classification 10-21-A. In fact, it looks like the camera is looking 'up' to Bobby and could be causing the illusion.

Look at his clubface - it is not turned to the plane like a swinger's clubface would. This is a giveaway to the use of the Strong Single Action 10-18-C of the Left Wrist Action component.

The clubface at the top also reveals the use of an Angled Hinge per 10-10-C. However, that alone does not differentiate between Hitter or Swinger per 10-19-0.

However as evidenced later in Frame 11, he still executes a Finish Swivel per 4-D-0. Swingers have a start-up swivel, swivel to impact and a finish swivel. Hitters only have a finish swivel.

His clubshaft favors a vertical look. This is perfect for the Drive Loading (10-19-A) procedure of a hitter. Per 7-19, "Clubhead Lag....by resisting the Backstroke motion for Drive Loading." The right elbow is loaded instead of the left wrist for swingers.

Per 7-3, "...the Right Forearm should be precisely in-line with - and directly opposed to the entire Primary Lever Assembly...".

As an instructor, I would like to see his right elbow be more perpendicular to his right forearm.

Per 10-11-0-3, the top side of the shaft is not against Bobby's first knuckle of the forefinger - the aft of the shaft is against his #3 pressure point.

Frame 7 - Downstroke (8-8 )

Per 10-3-0, "Major Basic Strokes are classified according to Elbow Position during the Stroke (7-3) and every Stroke must use one of the three."

Bobby is using the Punch Basic stroke per 10-3-A. "From a "down-and-at-the-side" Elbow position, whether the Elbow is touching the Body or not, a straight-line Right Hand Punch is delivered through Impact (6-E)". Please compare the pictorial references in 8-8 and 10-3-A against Frame 7.

Frame 8 - Release (8-9)

It could be that Bobby is using a snap release but per 6-R-0, "...Automatic and Non-Automatic Releases are equally available to both Hitters and Swingers and that many will find Hitting very satisfying even if - and maybe even because - it can accomodate any amount of effort one cares to expend on it."

Finally, in 6-H-0-E, "Associate the following with 'Hitting' (10-19-A)" This serves as a very useful 'line in the sand'...:)

Thanks for the reply.

After I wrote my previous post, I got thinking and went and got his book. He describes the downstroke as the pulling of the club and at the moment of truth to pour it on with the right hand.

To be honest I thought the pictures supported swinging.

I believe these are posed pictures so I am not sure we get a real accurate understanding of the actual stroke but a modified picture of what the golfer positions himself for at times.

Anyway I would submit that the forearm alignment is closer IMO to supporting the secondary assembly.

The length of the back stroke since posed could be restricted but I am not sure that it needs to be any longer to classified as a swinger.

I think the same holds true regarding identifying the 10-3 type since the following frame does not IMO support either. Either there needs to be some elbow bend/right wrist bend or the elbow needs to be a bit more foreward. Frame gives me the impressin that the shaft is vertical to the ground to support 10-3a else it might be 10-3b just not very deep. Too hard for me to tell

I think he is showing a bit of down stroke or float loading, which would explain why the club appears to be more vertical than horizontal at the top.

I am very interested in your comment regarding club face alignment and hinging. I need to do (continue) studying, I wasn't aware that you could identify hinging at the top. This is quite curious to me as you can have any of the hinging in Basic and Acquire Motion without reaching the top. Can you expand on this or point to some more references.

Bobby may or may not be a Hitter...

But one thing is for sure:

He is Loading at the End (10-21-C) not the Top. Why? Because his Hands are above his right shoulder at the Top (8-6). Yes, the camera might be looking up a little bit, but look how far his Hands are above his Head. The camera cannot produce this kind of illusion!

I reckon so ... in strictest terms the shift is of the sweetspot plane ( ie. clubhead sweetspot to PP3 location) rather than shaft plane - always hard to work out from a non perfect set of images , just off down-the-line view - but shaft appears to double shift.

hitting and swinging
 

The definition of hitting versus swinging is based on how force is applied to club - push or pull.

All other component variables are associated with or optimise a hit or swing pattern but are compatible with both.

Static photos enable us to identify components that are better suited to hit or swing BUT do not give us the answer re. whether he is pushing or pulling.

I suspect that he is swinging with a number of components that are better suited( in most players, but maybe not Bobby - he has right to customise) to hitting.

It is always a joy to read Comdpa's posts - eloquent argument so well structured! but force application ...can we really tell? I am not sure... discuss.

Thanks for the clarification Leo...I said 'could'...:)

:happy3: Hi Martee...

For ease of reading and referencing, I have typed my answers in BOLD above.