Rft
 

Was revisting the David Orr-RFT video and was wondering if the proper downstroke sequence would be the opposite feel of the takeaway? Another words, should there be a dropping of the right forearm and then a closing sensation, just the opposite of the fanning in the takeaway?

Fahgettaboutit!!!

"RFT = Can't play a lick!!!!!"

See 7-3 and 2-N-1 in the 7th edition. To start the downswing learn to uncock the right elbow through the right forearm....the Magic of the Right Forearm.

DG

Words Of Another
 

Readers should know that 12 Piece's post above is not meant to be taken literally. He was quoting cynically from a post by a GSED on another site who trashed The Golfing Machine's Right Forearm Takeaway (12-3 / Section 4/5 #17; 3-F-6; 7-3; 2-F; 12-5-3 #13).

Homer Kelley fully understood that the Right Forearm Takeaway does not replace the Pivot. Or vice versa. He knew that the Pivot and the Forearm are independent but coordinate. He taught that to his students, and he wrote that in his book.

Some get it.

Some don't.

Some get it some don't....
 

Yoda,

Is correct, some get it....some don't....learn to execute all that is available in TGM....hitting, swinging, the three hinges, lob shots, cut shots, straight line delivery path, Major Basic Strokes, Power Package Loading Action, etc.....you'll come to appreciate the right forearm takeaway...limit your experience with TGM and you might overlook the importance of RFT.

DG

IMO the right shoulder initiates a right forearm pickup.

Orr's video on it is really good.

Lot's of opinions on this I hate that neither side can appreciate the other. It's all good with me, whatever style you like, I appreciate both.

Homer said a left shoulder push is a pivot control of the hands but if you know how to recover and get back on plan, he is find with it. He even suggested that you try to do it as a drill so if you ever find yourself going off plane you don't have to stop or worry about it.

For me, I can't even do low and away anymore. My right arm takes the clubhead up, back and in on its merry way to start down. The Right Forearm Pick-Up Take-away is in my blood.

I shot the Orr video of the RFT at one of his workshops and agree that in the helm of kinesiology that the movement of the right arm is cause by the right shoulder moving. It is a right side take-away but the intent is for the right hand and forearm to move the club away. You don't need to know that the right shoulder moves- it will happen. The thought is of the hand taking the club up on Plane.

Homer said that the RFT comes closest to the the prefered swing circle need for precision. Sounds like the way to go to me.

As for the other guy who claims he teaches multiply stroke variations- he seems to miss the understanding of the term various.

Clowning the backswing or just clown.
 

Mr. Kelley wrote what he wrote and said what he said. And that is fact. Anything else is opinion, posturing and putting words in a dead man's mouth.

Mr. Kelley actually spoke on the Shoulder Turn Takeway saying that physics overrides geometry. He said that it could as a result potentially prevent Throwaway. That is also fact. He was all about OPTIONS . . . HOWEVER . . . The Right Forearm he called Magic . . . he called the pivot "the sack you put the Components in . . ." I pick Magic over sack. If you want to use the Shoulder Turn Takeway no problemo. Homer said you could clown the backswing . . . downstroke . . . different story.

Those that think RFT = Can't Play A Lick . . . don't have a lick of sense.

It's Not About the Right Forearm
 

I agree with your conclusion regarding the right shoulder, glcoach. But you do yourself an injustice when you state it is merely your "opinion." In truth, it is an anatomical fact: You simply cannot lift your arm (except the forearm from the elbow) without using your shoulder muscles.

From 2-M-3 (Muscles): "Deltoids -- they raise the arms..."

The Right Shoulder is a Dual Agent (2-H): It is part of both the Pivot and the Power Package (the Triangle of the Shoulders, Arms and Club). As such, it must participate in the Start Up. My post did not disparage the Pivot or those who focus on it. In fact, it made the point that the Pivot and the Right Arm are both important and that they coordinate in the Takeaway.

Regarding 'appreciating the other side,' I am on the side of The Golfing Machine -- that covers a lot of territory! -- and I make no bones about it. That is my privilege. If someone else believes otherwise and teaches otherwise and does otherwise, well...that is their privilege. And it doesn't bother me in the least.

However, the remark in question -- "RFT=Can't play a lick" -- goes far beyond such philosophical differences. It is a flippant judgment that is both condescending and contentious. When these words come in private conversation or as forum banter between self-styled cyber-warriors, it is one thing. But, it is quite another when they come as a public pronouncement from an Authorized Instructor of The Golfing Machine, one who holds its highest designation (GSED) and who is bound to uphold its principles and support his fellow Authorized Instructors.

Despite this particular Instructor's damning assessment, many Authorized Instructors believe otherwise -- that is their privilege -- and they do teach 'the book,' including its Right Arm Takeaway. To ridicule them and their teaching -- "RFT=can't play a lick" -- is in direct violation of the Professional and Ethical Conduct clauses of the Authorized Instructor agreement, one which this particular individual signed and is thus bound to honor. Point of fact: To make "disparaging, demeaning, or degrading comments about fellow Authorized Instructors" is deemed conduct "unworthy or unbecoming of an Authorized Instructor."

Now, I personally am no longer an Authorized Instructor. So why should I care? Three reasons:

1. Most of the many Professional Contributors to this site are Authorized Instructors, and most, if not all, teach the Right Arm Takeaway as described in The Golfing Machine. To demean their teaching demeans them. I don't appreciate it, and quite frankly, I don't think they do, either.

2. Homer Kelley worked indefatiguably for more than forty years to benefit all golfdom. His earnest conclusions deserve respect, even if it is respectful disagreement. I bridle when his genius is made the subject of arrogant ridicule, especially when it comes from within.

3. Somebody needs to point out this professional misconduct, and it might as well be me. :)

Bottom line:

It is not the point of view I find so offensive...

It is the attitude.

There is no opinion, there is no style, only facts. The right forearm has to move 3 dimensionally in accordance to the secondary lever assembly motion on the inclined plane in order to have the clubhead traveling in a consistant orbit. If you set the mass or weight of the clubhead off in an incorrect orbit initially, you will be working against the physics of gyroscopic motion requiring compensation later in the backstroke.

Well said. And one further point . . . this particular GSED said that the 7th had too much emphasis on the Right Forearm Takeway. The book was completed on Mr. Kelley's notes. The implication being that Mr. Kelley REALLY wouldn't have put that in if he were still with us. Totally and utterly ridiculous. The Magic of the Right Forearm appears first in the 6th Edition NOT the 7th. The text of the 6th was COMPLETELY Homer Kelley's . . . not any notes that some seem to think are dubious or just Mr. Kelley's mental wanderings.

Ironically enough these are the same class acts that once said the same notes were bogus before the 7th was released. After highlighting each and every note from the "mystery Word file," the changes were VERBATIM.

But people can teach what they like . . . pivot takes the club back best and the clubhead rotates around the hosel. But that ain't no Golfing Machine.

And . . .this ain't one camp vs. the other. This is about somebody going totally and utterly off the reservation and speaking for Homer Kelley. And to justify the comments as being "just NOTES" . . . sorry Charlie . . . it was in the 6th.

7-3 6th Edition:

Furthermore, in compliance with 6-B-3-0-1, Bending and Straightening the Right Elbow will RAISE AND LOWER the Left Arm and/or COCK AND UNCOCK the Left Wrist with out Bending, Flattening or Cocking the Right Wrist. Practice this first at Impact Fix. So, the Right Elbow Action either powers and/or controls all three elements of Three Dimensional Impact (6-C-0) per 1-L-9. All this you will come to know as the MAGIC OF THE RIGH FOREARM.

This is also in the 6th . . .

This procedure does not refer to the disruptive Shoulder Turn Takeaway – which is always too “Flat” and/or too “Low” making a Plane Angle Shift mandatory and usually unintentional and unsuspected

Hey Lynn,

Didn't Brian Gay move up approximately 100 places -- to 12th -- in the Scoring Average list on the PGA tour and didn't he also attribute alot of his success in knowing how to use his right forearm properly?

Oh yeah, but he 'can't play a lick'...lol

" MAGIC OF THE RIGH FOREARM" forgot a T. The passage is way too cool not to be righT.

Best we just ignore said instructor. He threw away so much.

Thats not just a plane angle shift but forces you to re-establish the plane line - which is even more important.....

Precision Differentiations
 

Brian Gay's exact quote from our Windemere video is:

"The right forearm made all the difference."

BTW, he shot 65 in today's first round at the PGA TOUR's Mayakoba Golf Classic and is in 6th place.

Oh, and the Right Forearm thing worked pretty well for Meghna Bal Sunday a week ago at the All India Ladies Amateur. At age 17, she is now National Champion.

And earlier this month, Jeff Hull, LBG Senior Instructor, shot even-par 288 in the cold and wind and finished solo 3rd (in a field of 240) at the PGA of America's Winter Series Stroke Play Championship.

Certainly, the Right Forearm Takeaway is not the only way, but at the very least, it does seem to be an acceptable my way.

:)

Wow, I guess this Homer dude actually knew his stuff after all :)...lol

Without wanting to drag things too far off-topic, why?

Some very useful information in this thread, I have been using the RFT and love its simplicity. When I drop the forearm down the plane and into the ball I hit it very solid, but the shots are high with a fade, sometimes more of a cut. In reference to my question in the thread start, should I be feeling a closing the door sensation through the ball, the opposite of the fan in the begining? I think that may help close my clubface.

Geometrical Precision
 

Mathew is not an Authorized Instructor of The Golfing Machine quoting chapter and verse. Instead, his authority comes through extensive 3-D modeling of the Golf Stroke, some of which is copyrighted and appears in the LBG Gallery. He learned quickly that computer models respond only to geometrical precision, not to vaulted opinion.

It is this geometrical precision that Homer Kelley referenced in 2-F (Plane of Motion):

"But precision is lost unless Start Up is a Three Dimensional parallel to the Three Dimensional Impact, i.e., the Clubhead moves Backward, Upward and Inward -- On Plane -- INSTANTLY AND SIMULTANEOUSLY." [Capitalization emphasis by Kelley.]

And it is this geometrical precision (and its resultant Compression) that led Homer to the Right Forearm Takeaway.

He didn't just 'make it up.'

Are you Swinging or Hitting? The RFT doesn't mean you need to use Acc1 as the primary active power source to impact. Hitting and RFT work wonderfully but it is equally great Swinging.
Hitters need to adjust ball position and close the face slightly at address. Check Face alignments at impact fix as you practice and make adjustments. You can Draw or Fade with Hitting- the key is ball position.
Swingers will need to throw out and roll with a HH to avoid a bad cut.

Your cut is not because of the take away, IMHO.

You don't have to worry Toolish, this thread has never been on topic since the second response. A very simple question was asked and it has never been answered in this whole thread. Instead it was easier to trash another instructor. I understand not using names, but when quoting it is responsible to name the source. 8cork asked a very simple question. He is trying to perform a move that he believes will improve his golf motion that will improve his golf game that will improve his enjoyment of this game. He never asked what others thought or had written concerning the RFT.

Shame, shame and grow up.

Jim S.

I look forward to similar preachings from you on other sites.

AND . . . the only change of change of significance from the "dubious" notes to 7-3 . . . the Right Forearm Takeaway was made MANDATORY. But those were just notes . . .he'd been watching Fred Couples alot . . . so there really is too much emphasis on the Right Forearm Takeaway . . .

Mmmm hmmm . . . sure.

If people want to poo poo the Right Forearm Takeway because they don't like it . . . fine. But we don't need them speaking for Homer Kelley . . . he did fine on his own.

School Days
 

I don't disagree, Jim. But sometimes threads take on a life of their own. This was one of those times.

In hindsight, the appropriate administrative response would have been to delete 12 Piece's post (#2). We've taken such action many times and hence enjoy a well-deserved reputation for post deletion and editing. :)

In this instance, rather than censure, I chose to let the post stand, but to clarify its intent (Post #4). Then, spurred by glcoach's lament that "neither side appreciates the other" (#6), off we went.

:3gears:

That kind of thing seems to work well on some sites where people are bashed, professionals are 'graded' and sound (but misrepresented) ideas "die horrible deaths" in closed chambers. All in the name of "fair game reporting." But, as you point out, it doesn't work too well around here.

Thank you for noticing.

Another lesson learned.

Yoda, I appreciate your dignified response. Now, how about 8cork's question. The man is asking for help.

Jim S.

End Detour -- Resume Speed
 

I've opened a new thread and am giving 8cork a fresh start. This thread is now closed. Let's all go to RFT Redux http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=4339.