RFT Redux
 

Was revisting the David Orr-RFT video and was wondering if the proper downstroke sequence would be the opposite feel of the takeaway? Another words, should there be a dropping of the right forearm and then a closing sensation, just the opposite of the fanning in the takeaway?

For a swinger's feel, yes. The startUP swivel allows you to take the hands directly up plane, turn of the hand to plane, and the downswing is the opposite, roll of the hand to impact.

Keep in mind two important concepts however, first that the right wrist does not cock, and second that it is the pivot and its throw out motion that causes the squaring of the clubface.

The swinger's horizontal hinge is a 'closing only' motion through impact, and hence a feel of a closing door is a good thing, especially when the right arm is straightening on the proper angle of approach.

Thanks for the reply Ed, I am working on a drill that Yoda shared with me that should improve my pivot and allow me to get the club on a better plane. As Yoda can attest, I am bringing the club back severely underplane, and I think along with the pivot drill, the RFT is the missing piece to get me to the top correctly.

Pre-Op Waiting Room
 

8cork is planning to attend our Falcon's Fire Academy http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=4330 next month and sent me via email a Dartfish analysis of his Golf Stroke (both front and down-the-line views). I responded by telephone and with a video clip that he is working on pending our 'hands-on ' work at the Academy.

8cork - one way I find useful in getting the feels of both the RFT as well as proper startup swivel, horizontal hinge motion, and right forearm motion is to do slow motion swings using zero #2 accumulator (no left wrist cock), while making sure you are not cocking the right wrist (keep it 'level'). I suspect this is similar to the drill Yoda gave you? It is a great way to demonstrate how it is the bending of the right eblow that cocks the left wrist. Happy fishing ;)

Study and practice the extensor action drill from the Tomasello Chapter 2 "ARMS" video....from that drill you will learn the correct downstroke motion of the right forearm automatically (it took me years to finally understand how important that drill is).....from the top of a completed backswing....attempt to hit out (analyze this slowly, slow swings), see what happens to your pivot.... and then attempt to hit down, see what happens....then attempt to hit down and out from the top.....you'll find the correct downstroke motion is down with the right forearm. To check yourself, monitor your shoulder motion....with the out motion of the right forearm the shoulders go out....with a down and out motion of the right forearm, again the shoulders will go out. Only with a downward motion of the right forearm does the right shoulder move toward impact on the "Downstroke Clubshaft Plane". Check 7-3 for Homers comment about the precise up and down motion of the right forearm. It's in there............

First question for 8cork....do you understand how the straight line delivery path functions in both the backswing and downswing?

DG

RFT and its importance
 

I have been traveling and not able to post. In fact I wish the other post was unlocked so I could respond. However it is probably best to just give my thoughts on the importance of the right forearm and its involvement in the swing, especially in start-up.

I was teaching a group of college kids the other day and a girl with a fairly descent motion was really struggling with a pitch shot. Everything looked fine yet her club was FOLLOWING her pivot around her body, coming in under plane, and she was hitting fat shots and tops.

Once I placed a dowel, [yes those wonderful wooden training aids] on the ground as the base of her plane and had her trace it, THE BALL WAS STRUCK PERFECTLY TIME AFTER TIME. when I asked her what was different she said, "I just feel like my arms are tracing the line and my body is making a little turn. In fact it feels very easy to just pick the club up like this. Nobody ever said to do that before."

The next student had a similar problem yet her arms were folding up. I gave a simple explanation of extensor action, placed the dowel on the ground and within a few shots, the sound of compression and another happy co-ed.

Is the right forearm important? ABSOLUTELY!!!! Is the pivot important? ABSOLUTELY!!!! Are all of the components important? You get the idea.

Understanding "the magic of the right forearm" has been vital in my teaching and even more important in my own game.

Thanks for the advise DG, for me I think I have to find a happy median with the down motion of the right forearm, and also a closing of the door feeling. If I only feel the right forearm traveling down to the ball I hit high fades/cuts. If I try and close the door too soon, I hit heel shots, my right shoulder travels out instead of down. I look forward to some guidence next month in Orlando.

Don't think you'll find the answer in Orlando. If you do, it's with another pattern.

Didn't answer my question about the straight delivery path?

DG

[quote=Delaware Golf;39079]Don't think you'll find the answer in Orlando. If you do, it's with another pattern.

Hey, wait a minute.....

Are you saying that he will waste time vistiting the troika????

And that your answer is the best???

[quote=Amen Corner;39083]Lynn and co don't teach Tommy's pattern or with his method of teaching the right arm. How he taught me, some of the finer points of his instruction are not on the video tapes.

Never said 8cork would be wasting his time in Orlando....that's your incorrect assessment. See how things can get twisted.

Trust me, I have the upmost respect for the way Lynn approaches the machine. If I didn't decide to continue my studies with Tom Tomasello's instruction, I would be studying with Lynn and co.

DG

Search Party
 

Maybe not, DG, but at the very least, we're going to have one heck of a good time looking! :laughing9

I am happy you have found your "'answer" with the Pattern you learned from Tom Tomasello. And I appreciate your statement that it may also exist "with another pattern."

It is clear that there is more than one way to get the job done. I have always enjoyed the following quote from the Preface of the first edition of The Golfing Machine:

"Writing a book was not the original intention -- only to isolate the mechancial factors. Those factors seeped through slowly at first, but finally burst through the dikes. And the concept of "THE" correct Stroke could only just lay there while several trillion others swept over it. "

:salut:

True,

- but isn´t TT pattern in the book?

- don´t they teach it because they don´t know it or because it is a pattern that does not suit everybody?

[quote=Amen Corner;39087]Yes, it's in the book....Magic of the Right Forearm (to execute the downstroke with 12-1-0 and 12-2-0).

You'll have to ask other AI's why they don't teach like Tommy (but there are AIs that teach exactly what Tommy taught)...I believe Tommy decided to teach from Homers original approach, a right arm/arm swinging based approach to the game in line with Harry Vardon and Tommy Armour. Both Vardon and Armour were against starting the downswing with the lower body.

DG

Fact Check
 

As I understand it, Tommy Armour's Start Down was all about getting the right knee in toward the ball. He taught that the feet and knees -- "footwork" as he called it -- moved the body out of the way (in both directions) so that the hands and arms could swing freely and then whip the club through the ball.

As for Harry Vardon, well...

He taught Armour.

:)

Cool Yoda....I couldn't have said it better. Cheers to another successful LBG Academy/Workshop. Once I get the CFA exams completed, I'll attend one of the academies.

DG

First of all, I would like to apologize to the site owner and his crew and all members for not staying with the topic. Please delete or change to another place.

DG,

I have been following your posts with great interest, and your knowledge on Mr. Tomasellos teaching, is second to none.

But today I have reached the point where I need to say what has been bothering me.

I don´t know you or your background. I do know that you have spent time with Mr. Tomasello and, my interpretation of your posts here, that his word is law to you.

I, for thoose who did not know, am an AI.

Let me start with
"You'll have to ask other AI's why they don't teach like Tommy"

[We are taught and teach after the book written by Homer Kelley. If you did not know, you have over 44 trillions of different patterns that will fulfil the 3 imperatives. Which patterns to choose depends on the students CV.

To me, IMOO, that is a flexible system, MY WAY, not THE WAY.

"Trust me, I have the upmost respect for the way Lynn approaches the machine. If I didn't decide to continue my studies with Tom Tomasello's instruction, I would be studying with Lynn and co."

You did add this one to your original. I hope you do, since you are in his home.

"Cheers to another successful LBG Academy/Workshop"

Are you sarcastic?

I think you should be thankfull to Lynn and co. To have clips of your Master and Mr Doyle here is big. That tells me, I don´t know about you, how big Lynn´s generosity is.

You would not see that happen on any other golfsite.

The Magic of the Right Forearm is NOTa stroke pattern. TMRF is part of every movement Homer discussed, from take-away to follow through. It is structure, it cocks, guides and ignites the clubhead. It is a part of every stroke pattern. And it isn't Extensor Action.

"Don't think you'll find the answer in Orlando" Cheapest shot yet to members of this forum, dg.
But you are right, he won't find the answer in Orlando- Mickey knows nothing about golf. Best to wait til Yoda gets into town and kicks it into high gear. Lynn and Co will unlock the book and fill-in the blanks.

This is a quote from an article about one of the power sources of Vardon's swing...interesting reading...can't verify its accuracy.


"......So how could he be a long hitter and suffer from tuberculosis at the same time? The answer is in his bent left elbow.

Yes, I know your Pro has told you many times to keep a straight left elbow. And that is the classic thinking even today.

But is a difference between the problem the Pros are trying to prevent and what Vardon did. Many amateurs will over-swing at the top and let their left elbow bend.

On the start down, they will again straighten out the elbow causing extra movement and swing plane variations. What Vardon did was something else. He HELD the bent left elbow until just before impact with the ball.

John Jacobs, in his book - The 50 Greatest Golf Lessons of the Century (HarperAcademic), described Vardon’s swing LIKE THROWING A FRISBEE!!

Theodore Jorgensen in his book - The Physics of Golf - devotes 1 separate chapter to Vardon’s swing and comes to the conclusion that by using his left elbow as an additional hinge a power increase of up to 50% is theoretically possible.

Another description of Vardon’s bent left elbow is that he made his left arm into a whip with an additional bending point in it. And then threw his left arm down the target line similar to an athlete throwing a discus but in a more vertical plane. How can you try this out?

Think - throw the Frisbee down the target line.

Keep your left elbow bent on the way down to the ball and unfurl it, like throwing a discus, down thru the ball."

Sorry for helping the members of this forum. If you only knew how many I have helped and the time I have spent helping them.

Left side Frisbee throw- yes

"using his left elbow as an additional hinge a power increase of up to 50% is theoretically possible." 50%- Rubbish. And the Sweetspot will never see the clubface as often.

Take Vardon out of that field jacket and he would have a straighter arm then we think.:laughing1

Help away. TT is okay in my book. Great way to learn some of the things about TGM. But it seems you are against any questions. That is wrong. My guess is the answer will not be what you want it to be. No big deal. As I said- nice stroke pattern.

RFT in relation to swinging and hitting
 

I have in my mind a question for a long time regarding the RFT. In "The Address Routine video", Yoda and Jeff Hull and Ted all together talking about the takeaway. It is easy to understand that Hitter pick the thing up and drive it down...for swinger, hands are leading both ways... should we pick the rope handle? Or do RFT compatible to swinging procedure?

Frankly speaking, I personally adopt the RFT for hitting with very good result and just want to clear my fog.

Common Sense And the Right Arm Takeaway
 

This whole idea of the Right Arm Takeaway is so much simpler than most people want to make it.

As the Body Turns (and thus provides the circular motion necessary for the Stroke), both Hitters and Swingers use an active Right Arm and Elbow to lift the Left Arm and Club to the Top. Since one arm or the other (or both) must ultimately lift the Club -- really, how else will you get it off the ground? -- then the only alternative to Right Arm Lift is Left Arm Lift (or some combination of the two). The motion is not at all complicated. It is the same used when you wind up to throw a ball (only the plane of motion is different).

But getting the Club off the ground is only half the story. You must also guide it in its precise On Plane Path, and here the Right Arm reigns supreme. As the player lifts the Club, he simultaneously uses the Right Forearm and Clubshaft (ideally the Forearm's In-Line Extension) to direct the Sweetspot Up Plane. As the Elbow Action lifts, the Right Forearm guides. What could be simpler?

Sure, you can lift the Club with your Left Arm -- if you are strong enough -- but since the Left Arm points below Plane, its guidance function is suspect. One thing is for sure: You cannot lift the Club with the Body. Unaided by the Arm's Lift, the Turning Body will simply drag the Club back along the ground and sharply to the inside. So, sooner or later, the Arms must lift. 'Sooner' puts the Club On Plane. 'Later' puts it Under Plane.

Now, directly to your question and the manner in which the Right Arm Takeaway differs between Hitters and Swingers:

The Hitter must set up a Carry Back Motion (of the entire Left Arm-Clubshaft unit) that Loads the Right Elbow (for Muscular Drive-Out Action). In contrast, the Swinger must set up a Swing Back Motion (of the Club itself) that Loads the Left Wrist (for Centrifugal Throw-Out Action). Hence, the Swinger will sense and visually exhibit more of a Drag Back than will the Hitter.

As a final appeal to those who would understand the nature of Right Arm Participation in the Backstroke, let me close with a real-life story. In 1972, then 42-year-old Gene "The Machine" Littler was diagnosed with cancer of the lymph system. The recommended surgical procedure to remove the cancerous lymph node in the upper left chest was radical: Node, glands (also in the upper left arm) and surrounding muscle would be cut out. Told he must choose between what would be left of his professional golf career and saving his life, Gene chose life, and the surgery was done.

But this story has a happy ending. The following year, while still in recovery and before he could lift his left arm above his waist, he won again on the PGA TOUR. On the Backstroke, his strong Right Arm swung the Club Up, Back and In -- On Plane. From the Top, his wonderful Pivot, specifically the Right Shoulder (and not his disabled Left Shoulder), drove his virtually useless Left Arm into Release. Centrifugal Force powered his Swinging Club, and his Right Forearm provided its On Plane guidance through Impact.

Asked about the victory in spite of his disability, Gene said simply:

"I never knew the right arm was so important."

He would go on to win four more PGA TOUR events, earn a berth on the 1975 Ryder Cup team and, in the sunset of his career, win eight times on the Senior Tour.

The message is clear...

You have a Pivot.

And a Right Arm.

Use both.

:thumright

And Homer said where you feel this activity is . . . IN THE RIGHT ELBOW. "You don't feel it in the muscles but the elbow itself."

12pb
Can you tell us more on this one...hitting ...swinging...what feeling in the right elbow:eyes:

I reckon it sort of depends . . .

The Hitter is Loading the Right Elbow so he is very much aware and dependent upon the sensations of the Elbow cocking, raising the Primary Lever Assembly, and being Loaded to drive the Primary Lever Assembly into Impact via the Right Forearm driving the heel of the Right Hand into the Left Thumb.

The Swinger on the other hand has more going on with the whole Swiveling thing. But the Swinger still has to get UP to have a three dimensional backstroke . . . not just back and in.

I am battling a Shoulder Turn Takeaway right now . . . I thought I was getting the club out of the under-plane condition that the Shoulder Turn Takeeaway leads to . . . but video disproved it. I get the club under-plane and behind me. Then the up comes too late and to combat the "behind me" feeling (ok ok stop it) I get it across the line ='s good bye Flying Wedge Alignments via a Rolled Right Wrist at the Top. To get the UP part I had to FOCUS my feel on the Elbow itself raising the left arm.

Captain Collards gave us a fantastic drill for this . . . grip your left arm at the wrist with your right hand . .. then just raise it up. I think it's actually demonstrated in the Hull-Fort-Blake video thingies.

If you ain't got enough up . . . focus on the message of your right elbow.

Thanks Yoda:salut: I got it. I remember a GSED on other side said that the backswing is similar to load a fishing rod. I think that is not by STT! Also, as you mentioned throwing a ball, my mind suddenly came up with Hammer Throwing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2NCUVpeuWg
I think that is a good example of arms (esp. the right arm) and body to make the hammer in motion.

RFT = Reduce Faulty Takeaway; Right to the Frame of golf Teaching; Revolutionary From Tee-to green...

I remember a few years back how tough it was for many of us to perform something so simple. Clapping, Fanning, Lifting, Pick up- it was so foreign. The computer took some time to re-program. But it did.

Is that a lick too?
 

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...703annika.html

RFT with extensor?

That's the way, (aha aha) I like it (aha aha)

When the other side demonstrates a so called shoulder turn takeaway - really is demonstrating a right forearm pickup.....they do not grasp the simple concept that any club that moves on plane 3 dimensionally, that the right forearm also has to move 3 dimensionally. The fact that their "shoulder turn takeaway" was demonstrated with a plane board is a testiment to this ignorance.

There is also other problems with their takeaway video demonstrations on the site but I'll just leave them out....

I was shown this drill too and its like huh? That simple? I thought it was more complicated than that. You are right, too many people over complicated it for no reason.
Alex