Loading
 

Being a new hitter,is it OK to drag load the swing when hitting as i do when i am swinging?Can't tell you how great it is to be able to hit and Swing?i must say Homer is right Hitting is easier when it is learnt.I find less can go wrong and when it does its easier to fix.

Re: Loading
 

If you are a Hitter, then your right arm is drive loading. Drag loading is Swinging. From what I have read, it is possible to drag load for the right arm swinger but not recommended. If done incorrectly there is a potential for ligament damage to the inside of the elbow. Check 7-19, last paragraph.

Quote is incorrect....LIGAMENT DAMAGE IS IN REFERENCE TO HITTERS in 7-19.


I use the right arm swing....

Don't hit up at release and don't use downstroke loading and you will be fine....


Right Arm swingers...

Jodie Mudd
Ernie Els
Retief Goosen

Harvey Penick taught the right arm swing....go to the little red book "The Magic Move" page 96.....

Ben Crenshaw
Tom Kite


DG

DG,

How are you sure that Retief and Ernie are "right arm swingers"?

What kind of shots/results do you personally have with this pattern? How does it compare to a standard hitting or swinging pattern for you?

I don't see how Penick's Magic move ( left foot back down to the ground, the weight moves forward as the right elbow moves close to the side as the right arm comes down) and anyone that refers to it - is a right arm swinger.

Quotessssssss
 

Mike,

First you need to quote it right....."to start the downswing, let your weight shift to your left foot while bringing your right elbow back down to your body...." the KEY WORD IS 'LET' repeat that to yourself ....as Harvey said it’s ONE move not TWO.

As I have said in the past,….in Real Estate, it’s location, location, location….in TGM and GOLF… it’s interpretation, interpretation, interpretation…..

Tomasello taught the exact same move.....Tomasello just define the action to a higher degree....the muscles of the right forearm bring the elbow back down to your body (Magic of the Right Forearm).....the weight shift is in response to the arms moving down.....

The next time you’re in a Borders or Barnes and Noble bookstore....go and read Ernie Els's book...."How to Build a Classic Golf Swing"...he uses the same move as Tomasello and Penick....checkout p. 41 for starters....

This past weekend on ABC....Ian Baker-Finch did an analysis in slow motion of Retief Goosen's swing....the comments were " it's all right arm"....if you go to an ABC tour event, you will see Ian on the driving range talking with the players, I wouldn't be surprised that Ian talked to Retief about his swing....


I would recommend you read Ernie's book before responding to this messsage....I don't want to argue about it....


DG

Am i right in saying that you cannot drag load if you are a hitter?you have to drive load.

Correct. Drag Loading 10-19-C "The Rope Handle" Technique is for Swinging. Drive Loading 10-19-A "The Axe Handle" technique is for Hitting.

Loading And Wrist Action -- Hitting Vs. Swinging
 

As Drew has stated, Drag Loading is most compatible with Swinging and Drive Loading is most compatible with Hitting.

However, the Hitter can Drag Load as long as the Loading Action (of the Left Wrist) and the tendency toward Horizontal Hinging is recognized and compensated. Similarly, the Swinger can Drive Load as long as the Loading Action (of the Right Elbow) and the tendency toward Angled Hinging is compensated.

Also, Mr. Kelley had no quarrel with Hitters who choose to initiate the Start Down with the Swinger's Standard Wrist Action (and not the Hitter's Single Wrist Action) in order to prevent driving the Hosel (only) -- and not the Sweet Spot -- toward Impact.

What if one just went to the strong double action grip?

DRW

Go For It
 

The player can always "X" up his Pattern as desired (1-K). The Strong Double Action produces automatic Angled Hinging, and its Paddlewheel action of the Right Forearm has been used by many of history's great players. Nevertheless...

The Golfing Machine mandates the Strong Single Action Grip (10-2-B per 12-1/2-0 and 12-5-0).

Yoda,

Is correct....Strong Single Action is correct under normal swinging or hitting conditions using horizontal hinging or angled hinging....

The normal application for a Strong Double Action would be for a cut shot just like it says in the book....Ben Doyle in his video "How to Build a Golf Game" simply gripped his club in the Strong Single Action position then turned his hands to the right which put his hands in a Strong Double Action alignment with the clubface in a wide-open condition.....this condition of the hands and clubface will produce a natural cut shot with vertical hinging....

It's amazing what a little imagination will do with TGM.


DG

Re: Go For It
 

So why would Mr. Kelley not quarrel with a player mixing the Standard and Single wrist actions?

DRW

"The Golfing Machine mandates the Strong Single Action Grip (10-2-B per 12-1/2-0 and 12-5-0)."

This "mandate" eliminates every tour player as a TGM student.

Anti-Shank Insurance
 

In Single and Standard Wrist Action, the Hosel and the Sweet Spot are both On Plane at the Top. However, during the Start Down, the Hitter's Clubshaft -- and Hosel - immediately begin to rotate around the Sweet Spot as he applies the Roll of Angled Hinging in his return to the Ball (10-18-C-2).

With the Swinger's Standard Wrist Action, the Hosel and Sweet Spot remain On Plane during the Start Down as he applies his Left Hand Karate Chop to the Ball. This helps the player whose sense of Clubhead Lag -- Sweet Spot inertia -- is underdeveloped and who therefore tends to start the heavy Hosel toward the Ball (instead of the Sweet Spot). In other words, Standard Wrist Action serves the less-skilled Hitter as Anti-Shank insurance.

But remember, in my prior post's reference to the use of Standard Wrist Action in the Start Down, I bolded the word initiate. As soon as the Sweet Spot has begun its Down Plane journey and the Right Shoulder Turn has taken up the initial Clubhead inertia (Lag) and begun the Power Package Acceleration, it is time for the Hitter's Right Triceps to assume command and begin his Simultaneous -- not Sequenced -- Release.

Dave,
Not to be argumentative. The quote is not incorrect. 7-19, last sentence: "So, if there is a twinge in the elbow, you are Swinging with your right arm."

The hitters striaght line piston motion negates injury (to the degree injury can be negated...in otherwards, I would think it is safer). I have never known a boxer with elbow ligament issues, but tons of pitchers - especially side arm, that do.

In my opinion, Els and Goosen are positively, absolutely, without a doubt Not right arm swinging at all. The center of there stroke is the left shoulder for both of them - start to finish. I would see them as manipulated swingers.

Ok...back to the rock I crawled out from under.

Manipulated Swinger=Right Arm Swinger

...who would use just their left arm when they have a right arm that will accelerate the club faster then the left.....daaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Just go read Ernie's book...then watch the Tomasello video.....it's the same swinging action...

I'm sorry Patrick, I accelerate the club with my right arm but the swing arc is still my left shoulder with an automatic Snap release.....if I sweep release the arc changes to my right elbow.....study 10-20-B about early and late releases....

WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID OF YOUR NATURALLY STRONG ARM.....

ABC's commmentor Baker-Finch made the comment about Goosen being ALL RIGHT ARM in a slow motion analysis of Retief's swing....I'm sure Retief told Finch that he uses his right arm to start the downswing....just like Els and.....Penick....just checkout the "Magic Move" in the little red book....


DG

Isn't a manipulated hands swinger just a swinger who is using something other than horizontal hinging? I don't think that necessarily means they have to be a right arm swinger. Can't a right arm swinger still use horizontal hinging?

Manipulated swinging has no bearing on hinge action. A manipulated swinger is manipulating his left hand to get into an impact fix location (or e whatever location he/she chooses) at impact versus a true swinger, whom lets centrifugal force line the left hand at impact - which makes ball location so critical for true swinging. The key is a manipulated swinger is not solely using centrifugal force to line up the hands - there is some manipulation involved to get to their intended hand position, whereas the true swinger relies on centrifugal force only.

Yes, a right arm swinger can use horizontal, vertical or angled hinging.

Hope this makes sense.

Patrick

They are entirely different animals. Manipulated refers to the hand location and how that location is arrived at - via centrifugal force only or by manipulating the hands to get to a location. 'Manipulation' is not a negative connotation in this regards. Right arm swinging refers to replacing the left shoulder as the swing center with the right elbow. A right arm swinger could be a manipulated or true swinger.

10-20 is trigger types for beginning the release of the power package and as far as I know, that is the only implication of that section - to define when the power package begins to release, or is triggered into releasing. I cannot see how this would have any bearing on the center of the stroke.

Dave, we just disagree. Again, I only wanted to give another point of view.

See you guys in 6 months.

Patrick

Philly,

You really need to checkout Ernie Els book...


Where are you coming up with this stuff about manipulating swinging....


I'll take back my comment about manipulating swinging = Right Arm swinging.....based on your comments about manipulated swinging....we're talking about two different things...


Philly wrote:
.

Patrick,

We don't disgree....yes, manipulated swinging would be with a non-automatic release....that's what I have been saying....I have been saying that for months now.....


DG

DG?

When Does The Swinger's Hand Manipulation Occur?
 

The 'manipulation' of the Hands Manipulated Swinging Stroke -- the Left Wrist Flat, Level and Vertical at Impact (with the Clubface aligned slightly Open) versus the Club's normal Straightaway Flight point -- occurs when the Grip is taken at Impact Fix and not during the Stroke.

In other words, after the Grip is taken, Centrifugal Force rules.

Matt,

I watched and listened to Ian Baker-Finch's analysis of Retief's swing last weekend on ABC....Retief is using an arm swing......Ian's comment was "IT's ALL RIGHT ARM"....

My shot pattern with the right arm swing is straight or a slight draw....

TOMORROW NIGHT....GO TO A BORDERS OR BARNES AND NOBLE BOOK STORE AND CHECKOUT ERNIE ELS BOOK " HOW to Build a Classic Golf Swing"....read pages 41 and 126....

DG

Re: When Does The Swinger's Hand Manipulation Occur?
 

Hogan transitions from a cupped Left Wrist to Arched from Release to Impact. This results in a dynamic manipulation of the Hinge Action, which overrides that which would happen with CF alone.

Re: When Does The Swinger's Hand Manipulation Occur?
 

Lynn,

Maybe you could shed some more light.

Here is how I learned it in a crude way (crude meaning how I express it):
Manipulation refers to driving the hands to their impact hand location. In your example, if once the impact alignments are established and there was no thought or attempt to drive them to a certain location and centrifugal force ruled, why would there even be a need to align them at impact fix? Centrifugal force will automatically align the clubface for horizontal hinging, and ball placement rather then hand placement, would be the key factor for directional control.

Conversely, by not allowing centrifugal force to rule, and by driving the hands to a specific location we get an intended result. Of course, this is all preprogrammed as well before the start down.

Like to hear some more of your thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Patrick