On-line/ cross-line / 2-J-3 / etc
 

I have read all the old stuff and the recent stuff on these topics and still can't say i really understand how i can use these in my game.... so i am going to beat down this door once and for all. I apologise if this appears "workmanlike" but I need to get this right...and I can not believe that every other guy here has got it all understood! :eyes: - thanks for any assistance along the way.

The bits that confuse me are the descriptions of the straight/angled line delivery paths as being "cross line" procedures and.. the circle delivery path as "on-line"

I have always thought that :-

-online procedure means swing (arc of apporach) and

- cross line procedure mean hit (angle of approach)

So i get a few questions in my head

- Does that mean that a swinger needs/requires a circle delivery path??

I do not think so ...

- does that mean that if a swinger uses a straight line delivery path then it is a cross line procedure and they can use the angle of approach?

not sure...

- Now if i am aiming for a later release/more snap than sweep....I think i have to use a straight line delivery path ( not circle...circle path can not do snap release...right?).....

so what options does my right forearm have for covering or tracing?

I think that it can always trace the geometric plane line...but as I am now using a cross line procedure ...does that mean "out to right field" ( ie. more 10-5-E rather than 10-5-A...but that sounds too much like hitting!!!)

You can feel my confusion by now...i assume that some of my original assumptions are incorrect ...hence my confusion! Just not sure which bit of the puzzle is incorrect

- Is there a swinger's visual equivalent for the right forearm in a straight line delivery snap release??

A few worked examples may help my fog problem

Thanks very much for helping...PS. somewhere in the back of my mind is Hogan's picture of a "10-5-E style" downswing plane...is that a "cross -line feel" that he felt whilst actually being incorrect mechanics??:eyes:



There needs to be a more confused smile than that...

Now add in the slide of the hips parallel to whatever and does that mean that a swinger slides his hips differently in a crcle delivery path as opposed to a straight line delivery path???

I have ignored this issue for nearly 2 years...grasping the words rather than the real meaning... time has come to lance this boil!

I too am interested in these answers. Anybody willing to help clear the fog.....BUMP!

I too would love an answer to this, PLEASE!!!! Somebody help us!!!:confused1

I'll start to help, but understand that I'm not an authorized source.
However, the following is right out of the book.

Firstly, you must understand that paths are for hands and lines are for clubhead and forearm. So that makes your first few stated assumptions incorrect. That should answer some of your questions in the following.

A straight line delivery path holds the hands on a line from the top of the line
position directly at and through the aiming point. No plane shift.

An angled path is for a plane shift; a nearly vertical path of the hands down to the elbow plane followed by a straight line at and through the aiming point. Hands we're talking here, not clubhead.

The above has nothing to do with cross-line or on-line, which refers to delivery of clubhead and forearm. More on this later.

Then you have two paths for when your hands are above top of the line. The first short path is an arc back to the top of the line from which you then take a straight or angled path down, called Top Arc and Straight or Angled.

The Circle path is just a circle extension of the Top Arc (no matter where it is in relation to the top-of-the-line position, as assembly point can be anywhere on that arc) down to the aiming point. Normally used with No Axis Tilt, but not necessarily.

None of this has to do with cross-line or on-line delivery of clubhead or right forearm. So far we've only been talking about hands.

That should answer several of your questions.

To be cont'd.

Well said and nicely done!
 

Well said Loren!:thumleft:

I'm back, POR (pressing on regardless).

You are a swinger. You're probably going to use a single shift or zero shift up to Turned Shoulder Plane and then execute the downswing with a parallel hip slide driving the right shoulder down that plane, incidentally establishing axis tilt. Therefore your hands will take a straight line or top arc and straight line delivery path directly to the inside-aft aiming point for #3 pressure point, not a circle delivery path.

As an alternative, you might be dropping the hands straight down to the elbow plane first. Probably not, but in any case it's still a straight line path and not a circle delivery path.
(The circle path is mandatory for all non-pivot strokes, hitting or swinging. The axis tilt allows a line delivery path but does not require it.)

But what will the right forearm and clubhead do?
The short answer is "follow the hands". But we need to discern a delivery line and adjust it if necessary.

That's where Visual Equivalents come in, 2-J-3.

The true geometric plane line is the Basic Delivery Line.
Tracing the true plane line with the right forefinger is equivalent to directing the #3 pressure point on a mentally constructed straight line from the Top of the line to the ball.

Visual equivalents are seen on the ground by the golfer as either the clubhead following an Arc of Approach through the inside-aft point on the ball, out to Low Point Plane Line and then back in again across the Impact Plane Line, or the clubhead covering a straight line Angle of Approach on the ground and out to right field, never coming back to the original impact plane line.

The latter changes the physics of impact which just arbitrarily requires a 10-5-E closed plane line with a steeper plane angle to agree with the new clubshaft motions. The right forearm traces that delivery line but the clubhead visually covers it.

The angle of the Angle of Approach line can be determined as being parallel to the angle of the right forearm at impact fix.

While these visual equivalents are interchangeable, the Arc is most compatible with the on-line swing and the Line with the cross-line Hit. Hitters can choose either, swingers probably would not choose Line. An Angle of Approach line requires any "bump" to be parallel to the 10-5-E new plane line.

The confusion arises because of calling the hands' delivery path "Line" or "Circle" and also referring to the Angle of Approach as "Line" as opposed to "Arc" in delivery lines. They're not the same "Line" between delivery PATH and delivery LINE.

Hi Loren, thanks for your reply but this quote states that paths (ie. of hands) are related to the concept of being cross-line or on-line...

7-23. POWER PACKAGE DELIVERY PATH
The three possible paths of the Hands down the Inclined Plane (10-23) are the Basic Delivery Procedures and the Delivery Line Equivalents (2-J-3) must comply with them. Per 2-J-3, the LINE Delivery Paths are "Cross Line" procedures and the CIRCLE Delivery Path is "On Line" in their relation to the geometric Plane Line.


This is the bit that i got confused with...

You're right, it is confusing and will take some incubating.
I'm mainly going on Lynn's instruction on the Collin Neeman
series, Chapter 8 Delivery Path.
In that, and other places, Lynn always says that directing
pressure point #3 directly down the mentally-constructed
straight line from Top to inside-aft quadrant is the same
as tracing the line with pressure point #3.

I'm thinking now along the lines of, when drag loading, the
delivery line of the clubhead is the arc of approach even
with a straight line delivery path of the hands.
10-23-C, Top Arc and Straight line references drag loading,
10-19-C.

In 10-19-C it says "...accelerate the Clubshaft lengthwise....
Maintain this motion until the Release switches ends. This is
possible only if,..., Inertia can hold the Clubhead inside the arc
of the hands or hold to a Line Delivery Path (2-L)."

In fact, 2-L says nothing about a line delivery path. Rather
it's talking about only a Form III lever used in a golf stroke
and that no law of force or motion can be annulled. So that
is no help. Perhaps there is a typo in 10-19-C referencing
2-L?

At any rate, one could hardly go wrong tracing the base line,
or directing #3 in a straight line from Top to inside-aft quadrant
when drag loading. You might notice in start-down waggle that
the clubhead is taking an arc of approach path in either method
of monitoring the delivery line.

When Hitting, you also have an option of using Angle of approach,
10-5-E, a very steep plane and a cross-line bump.

I'll continue to incubate. I'm pretty sure that a line path of the
hands is not particular to drive loading, and that in swinging it
doesn't require an angle of approach, or "cross-line bump".

Gentlemen,

Great discussion. Wow...talk about challenging the intellect.

What I thought I had, I realize now, I never owned.

Patrick

Loren,

Your posts here are much appreciated. It is obvious you are into it!

UPP in cold Ohio

Hi Loren - I agree with this bit...

But it does not make the words I found in 7-23 easier to understand!:laughing9

It clearly states that the Line paths are cross line procedures. That section was not present in the thrid edition (it first appeared in 1979 - I think - I do not have the 1st or 2nd editions but it was definitely not in 7-23 in 1975 3rd edition).

Homer must have meant what he said.

Is is a way of expressing the feeling that Hogan had of his downswing going out to right field? ie. a cross line feel of the hands??

OK, enough incubating.
 

The eggs are starting to hatch.

IMO, and not an authorized one I must say, golfbulldog, you're right in a lot of ways.

Per 12-2-0 the standard variation for the swinging basic pattern component 23 Delivery Path is Top Arc and Straight Line, not Circle. Of course that means down the Turned Shoulder Plane, the shoulder needs to go down that plane also, hence a parallel hip slide, or bump. If you don't go to End then there's no Top Arc out to Top before the straight line path.

And per 7-23, Delivery Line visual equivalents must comply with the cross-line procedure of line delivery paths and the on-line procedure of circle path. So you're right there.

However, the reverse may not be true. i.e. the delivery path (hands) may not have to comply with the delivery line (visual equivalent). For instance, per 2-J-3, the visual Arc of Approach applies to both 10-23-D (line) and 10-23-E (circle). The Arc of Approach is an optical illusion to the golfer. Tracing the true plane line is even more precise and does not alter the clubhead arc.

I might add that the reference to 10-23-D should properly say 10-23-C since it's the same as C, which is the preferred Turned Shoulder Plane. Why refer to the inferior plane shift?

Now, in 2-J-3 we have that the arc of approach and the angle of approach are always interchangeable. Hence Lynn Blake's equivalence in the Collin Neeman instruction video chapter 8, a swinging procedure.

The question hanging out, to me, is "Does a swinger bump cross-line when using Angle of Approach visual equivalent?"
I think not because of the difference between CF "throw out" and the hitter's right forearm drive-out. I think the difference is in the right shoulder's active versus passive participation. The hitter, if using the active right shoulder for a 4-barrel hit uses it very briefly, a fraction of a second before switching to a right forearm drive-out with the right shoulder as a moving platform to support it. As such, the right shoulder's motion must change to the new steep 10-5-E plane line which requires a cross-line bump. This allows the hitter to drive it down to China, chewing up a lot of turf.
The swinger using the angle of approach visual equivalent can start getting too steep and hitting it fat. Then according to Lynn on the video, it's time to go back to tracing the true plane line.

Maybe where you should be looking is in the difference between the linear motion of a hitter and the angular motion of a swinger.

Both deliver pp3 in a straight line but the swingers club head follows an arcing path.

This is truely insane. I have now gotten off of zoloft, and am now on cymbalta, xanax and ambien.

May I sleep now?

Seriously......

(ok, I am on them all :) )

I've carved a canal on the top of my head from scratching it too much. Anyone have some clean fill dirt?

Incredibly thought provoking conversation....

I hear you, phillygolf.
 

Heh! I agree. Scratched a lot of head fur off m'self, thanks to bulldog.

So here's the deal, IMUO (in my unauthorized opinion).
Just trace the base line with the #3 pressure point and you're golden.
Or equivalently, direct the #3 pressure point to inside-aft quadrant.
How's that?

Bottom line according to the book, if you're using Circle Path you have to use Arc of Approach, or trace the plane line with #3 PP. Otherwise, any visually equivalent line is an option.

As a swinger, you bump parallel because you're using CF throw-out for alignment.
As a hitter, if you choose the steep alternate plane angle of Line of Approach
(10-5-E) you have to bump cross-line and cover the line on the ground with the clubhead, or trace the alternate plane line with #3 pressure point.

Already said too much.

Me too.

So i get a few questions in my head

Hmmm....no, dont think so. Conversely, circle delivery is a swinging procedure. But, again - no book here - I dont think swingers need/require circle delivery.



I do not think so ...
Ok...isnt delivery path the path of the hands? If so, then no. Cross line is procedure is a reference to thrust - hitting - because the direction is across the planeline. You could have straight line delivery path with swinging (couples) and still have arc of approach.

not sure...

Snap is in reference to accum # 2 believe. You most likely have a straight line del path, but doesnt require it.

Depends what you mean - arc/angle of approach? Need clarification.

Cross line would be 'out to right field', a hitting procedure. Swinging wouldnt be out to right field simply because.....rotational.
Arc of approach.



Not sure. Here's what I do know. Hips move, as directed by the hands, to allow an onplane motion.

Sorry, thats it for now. I am beat.