Detonum's stroke sequence
 

Hello. I've been into TGM since early fall last year. It has done wonders to my game. I have learned alot reading here. But I've hit a brick wall in a couple of parts in my swing..

Here's my sequences.





The problems:
-Arched left wrist. I just can't seem to hit the ball well with a flat left wrist. It seems like my left wrist is so arched at the top, that I have to flip a little bit in the downswing, so that my primary lever radius isn't too short.
-Slight overswivel.

Any help with these problems would be greatly appreciated. Other advice on increasing the precision in my stroke also welcome.
Thanks.

I am not an A.I. so take this on face value.

Looks like you are using a club with a fair amount of loft yet ball position is pretty much under low point. Hence you have pushed your hands forward at address to give you the shaft lean you need. The problem is that sets your hands and wrists into that arched position that you aren't liking. Push the ball and your hands back a bit at address and the left wrist will flatten out at fix and you have more chance of keeping it that way. I am opnly talking back a bit, don't overdo it.

Doing that will probably also help frame 2 in the DTL view where teh club has come inside a bit too quick and you are off plane.


Overall though it is a nice motion, would love a head as steady as yours! What do you play off? Do you feel you are a hitter or swinger?

Some things that I see that to me (I'm not an AI), indicate a mixing of components:

1) You start from impact fix (a hitters "preference"). As Toolish said, you seem to have over-cooked the forward ball position and, combined with a very forward leaning shaft, is forcing you to put that left wrist in an arched position.

1a) Looks under-plane at startup, but it appears you're trying to carry it back with the clubface still "looking at the ball" as a hitter would. (Looks like not enough "fanning" and not enough right forearm pickup).

2) You go to "Top" (as a hitter "should").

3) Looks like you're empoying a pitch elbow (a swingers preference), rather than the more "at-the-side" punch elbow position of a hitter.

4) Your very "complete" finish position looks more like a swinger than a hitter, so your pivot may be a bit "confused". Are you "spinning the flywheel" (swinger) or "taking up the slack" on the start-down in preparation for using your right shoulder as a backstop (hitter)?

Nice on-plane right forearm at setup and impact.

Bottom line.... I see a mixture of hitting and swinging elements. The arched left wrist is probably a compensation tied to it. The clubface looks very "shut" as a result of the arched wrist. I suspect if you were to sequence your release and use horizontal hinging you'd be taking out everything on the left side of the range.

Do you have a preferred pattern (hitting or swinging)?

CG

Thanks for the replies.

Never thought that's why I'd arch my wrist, Toolish..But it does make sense, so I'm gonna move my ball position back.

I actually play off 10,2 (EGA) at the moment. But thats gonna change pretty soon, I've made some big breakthroughs lately in my impact conditions. Last year I could not hit ANY shot pure. Now after winter practice with TGM I'm getting pretty good compression and pure shots on chips, pitches, full shots.. I'm making way more birdies, and I shot my personal best on the front nine of my course last week (par).

cometgolfer, it does seem like I'm mixing hitting and swinging. What I feel in the downswing, is that I actually pull with my right arm to the pitch elbow position, and then push the club through impact. From what I've read about right arm swinging, it makes the right elbow center of the stroke, and that certainly isn't happening with me. But I definately have alot of right arm participation.

I feel like I take the slack very aggressively while almost simultaneously using my right arm. I don't conciously use my pivot till the finish, so I'm just posing the finish :D.

If I'm gonna start changing these components to more of a swinging or hitting pattern, I'll choose the hitters pattern. I love the right arm participation.

So here's my question: can a hitter use the pitch elbow?

D,

I guess you could, but it would seem more difficult and less efficient for delivering the right arm thrust that a hitter uses (take a look at 10-3).

The TGM journey is an interesting one. The more you get into it and the more you understand the component inter-relationships, the more clear the book becomes and you start to understand why it's written the way it is. For instance, the elbow position you employ is going to affect your hinge motion and your rhythm which are different for hitting and swinging.

If you're going with a hitters pattern (and I think that's a good choice for you) I'd start with 12-1-0 and stay as close to it as possible.

CG

Hitting Help
 

From what I see and from what you've said so far, Comet is giving you good advise.

Couple of pointers on Hitting -
For hitting, try a 10-2-D grip. It's a strong grip but perfect for angled hinging because it facilitates the simultaneous uncock/roll very well.

Rather than trace the plane line, you will take a more closed line to the ball and one way to set this up is at address is:

In your address position move your right elbow a little more toward your side rather than in front of your left hip. You are going to use a push basic stroke. Looking down at your right forearm, you will see the path that your hands will take up and back down. Follow that line with your hands for your backstroke and downstroke. You can pre-clear your right hip at address to make room for your hands to move up at startup.

Take a slow startdown and at your release point, straighten your right arm as hard as you want. Use your stationary right shoulder as a backstop when you start pushing. The primary focus for pushing is your #1 pressure point. Use the palm of your right hand to drive the base of your left thumb through impact.

This is the easy stuff, the hard part is keeping your right wrist bent through impact. Don't allow the right wrist to flatten until you are into your follow-through.

There is a lot more in hitting to learn about. The advise on this site in the Hitting section is the best anywhere because Ted and others know how to execute a Hit stroke. I only used it for a year, but got a big whiff of it.

Best wishes on your Hitting journey and enjoy the laser guided rockets you'll be launching.

What do your misses do?

Hey chickenbone, that's a pretty personal question.

What does your Misses do besides follow you around with bleach cleaner?

I was at the range today and decided to try the punch elbow - and much to my surprise I quite liked it and maybe even hit it better than with the pitch elbow. So I'm definately dropping the pitch elbow.

Yeah, the book is alot clearer now than when I started reading. I've had so many a-ha! moments with the book and at the range. But there's still lots and lots for me to learn.

Thanks for the tips Bagger, I'm sure they will come in handy.. I shall start giving the hitters forum more attention!

12 piece bucket, my misses are pushes.

Nice one! Some of your better work . . .

Have you considered standing a little closer to the ball? You seem to be reaching for it to me.


If you look at the frame in your down the line pics where your left arm is way out away from you. Then in the next frame you do some fancy manovering to keep the club inside your hands. I think that's where the arch is coming from . . . you have to do some weird stuff with your hands to get the sweetspot on the ball instead of the hosel. At impact your shaft is close to vertical to the ground. With the shaft that steep any roll you have in your left hand is going to make the face shut fast. So you probably arch it to slow the face down.

With the wrist that arched you are sacrificing a bunch of #2 angle (wrist cock).

Have you ever hooked it bad?

Notice how much more "IN" Hogan's hands are and how his arms work much closer to his body. He's using a flatter plane but he has a much steeper angle of attack.




You stay in your angles well. I'd start by creeping closer to the ball and see what happens.

ideas
 

Get off the mat and on to some grass (preferably the good stuff that Bucket uses- high quality)- that will allow you to really hit down on it better and have better pivot lag.
Stand a little closer
Get the right shoulder a little more back and down i.e. square up the shoulders at address
Both of those will allow you to take it back more inside and flatter (on plane)
What you try to do and what you do are two entirely different things- in addition the feel of where you've been and the feel of the change to get better will require some "exagerated sensations" on the short term- you need "really inside and really flat".
That will put you in a location where the body will be in the way of the "hands to ball line" at the top. When you make an effort to take your hands to the ball - you'll require the body to move out of the way a lot more.

Now for the areas to look at in the down line sequence.
Look at the hand location on frame 1,2,5,6,7,8 On- Plane? Notice the changes from one frame to another.

Notice the hip rotation or lack thereof in frames 5,6,7,8 on the down the line sequence. Also, on the same face on sequences- there is quite the stopping of the pivot and the releasing of the hands and arms. Probably something you'd see in a 5-10 handicap but not in a pro.

Check out the prolonged "head down- eye on the ball" in frame 11.

With that said- Nice swing! Nice improvement! Keep it up! You're getting there. Pick the things that you want to work on and make sense to you- don't listen to everyone (that includes this post) - don't hand the steering wheel over to anyone- make sure you're the one driving the car!!

MO

Are you saying that D's hands are "off plane" and his arms and hands are too far away from his body so he loses the benefit of the power that a continuous body pivot would transmit if the arms and hands travelled closer to his body. I have heard ED Z mention that it is the hands that travel on plane. I assume your suggestions apply to both hitting and swinging.

I am saying his hands are not moving on plane.

I am also saying that your hands don't move where you try to move them- so it's very likely that he's tried to imagine and feel his hands moving on "his ideal" plane- say turned shoulder- but he is well above it at the top.

I am not "tying" 1) the hands closer to address to 2) any issues of pivot power.

I'm actually thinking that it would be harder to take the hands back flatter with the hands stretched out so far at address (couple of ways to look at that - so I might not have that correct - however as I mentioned - the hands closer to the body at address would allow for a better shoulder alignment and therefore set him up to take it back more on plane i.e. flatter.

All of my comments would apply to swinging or hitting.

However, really a very nice movement- that he's going to continually improve on and get better and better.

Good post hampster weiner . . . . this cat does have a good motion . . . it would be really good if you just pushed his hands in about 1 foot to a foot and a half. Actually he swings on plane pretty good . . . just a really steep one . . . the hands match up pretty good with the left arm parallel to the ground at start down and the right arm parallel to the ground on the thru side.

You still eatin' booger omlets for breakfast? Where you been . . . groupie at 4-H rallies?

The man wants to use his right arm.

He has two choices; A right arm swing like this cat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWIyAhDGrLs or Hit.

He sets up like a hitter, has a takeaway like a hitter and just needs a few tweaks to do what he wants to do with his right arm.

Let him release that Tiger.

Ok, so are you guys saying that a) my hands are off-plane, and in result the club is also off plane (over the turned shoulder plane) or b) that just my hands are off plane?

My hand path has always been out-in during the downswing compared to the plane line, but does that always mean the club is off-plane? I'm not swinging to the left. I think the arched left wrist has a role here: it keeps the club inside while I push my hands outside.

Practice at the range has been so-so. Damn that arched wrist is a bugger. Alot more work to do on that.

Lehman and Trevino did alright with one.

No I think your hands are ON PLANE . . . BUT the wrong plane. It's too steep. Notice how your hands pretty much match up when your arms are parallel to the ground. You just need to flatten the plane out. I think that will probably "un-arch" you some. I think you probably have that arch deal going so much a) to get the sweetspot on the ball with such a steep shaft b) to slow the rotation of the face down.

Look at the Hogan sequence. See how much more "in" his arms are? Notice how much lower the grip end is compared to yours. His arms and hands are moving WITH his body. Not just out away from him in space.

Try swinging and imagine somebody is directly behind you a holding a stick parallel to the ground and laying right on top of your head. Now swing the club UNDER that stick. And stand closer to the ball and don't get the shaft leaning forward so much at address. That encourages your hands to go UP.

That would be my opinion . . . others I'm sure will be like "yo Bucket is a retard."

Your left hip gets beyond your left knee and foot fairly early on in the downswing (left hip nearer target than left foot - weight transfers too much too left side and not enough rotation of left hip...means tendancy to swing clubhead along line).

Compare with Hogan in the sequence Bucket posted....just after impact his hip is further away from target than his left foot....he has lots of left hip rotation....allows him to swing on plane ( or "swing left" if you want).

My feeling (personal and unproven) is that the pronounced hip slide towards the target that you have ( and me - or I hope used to have) is associated with a reactive early release of acc. 2 (left wrist uncock) so that you have a fairly early release.... I think that this may be due to a reactive balance issue...if you slide your weight to target too early in downswing you automatically throw something in the other direction to retain some sense of balance.

If I feel that I pivot "down" and not towards the target then I get a later release and a greater sense of then pivoting "up" during impact.

If you have Percy Boomer's book then read it again and again...

That is what I think...may be wrong... but seems to make sense to me.... so many early release people have a big hip slide...and vica versa...

When I pivot "down" I slide less, I delay my release more...and I feel the planet earth pushing back up through my feet ...and that feels great!:golf:

Good post . .. But keep in mind if he didn't have a bunch of hip slide his hands would fly way out over the plane. The steeper the plane you have to slide more. Flatter planes require less slide and more rotation.

Getting the hands more "in" and the plane flatter will make the pivot more rotary by necessity. If he spins his hips on his current steep plane he's WAY OVER THE PLANE. Right now he's on plane just a steep plane.

I know what you say about planes etc...I sort of get it...need time to think...

I agree with Bagger... he has many hitting components... but that can depend alot on where you get your first exposure to TGM.... if you learn a "twistaway" type move early on....then you can get a swing that looks like this... I did... works well until one ( OK ...i mean I) ignorantly start to work on incorporating swingers components into the hitting pattern that one has subconsiously started to develop.

Would a conscious move to the angle of approach help if Detonum wants to hit ? Maybe his hip slide looks better if one considers it from the 10-5-E downswing plane option that Hitters can use?

The arch starts in frame 2 of the DTL views....hands stay stationary whilst the clubhead moves up back and in....if the hands moved up back and in at the same pace and the impact address was less pronounced....there would be no arch... essentially what Mike was saying...

Looks like to me he's already arched at Address with his hands that far forward.

Am I the only person that can't see the pics?

Hallelujah! Had a small breakthrough at the range.I was concentrating on hand path.. I was thinking that with an arched wrist, my hand path is quite out-in to keep the club on plane...So I tried to feel my left wrist abit bent, and swing my hands more in to out...and there it was, compression with a flat left wrist! I checked it on video, flat left wrist all the way baby! Flatter plane too, because of that hand path swing though. Then I realized something: I felt like I was tracing a straight plane line for the first time with my right forearm. Now that's something.

curtisj76, I see them, but you can see the sequences as videos on youtube.. http://www.youtube.com/user/detonum
The two latest videos are the same as the sequences I posted here.

No, Bucket can't see them either but that's due to a self inflicted blindness that he's had since his teenage years. My guess is that you probably can't see them due to a software issue on your computer.

Bucket- from post #21 on this thread"
"The steeper the plane you have to slide more. Flatter planes require less slide and more rotation."
What are you drinking? I mean thinking? :confused1

So it doesn't get too confusing- let's keep "rotation" out of the picture and just deal with steepness of the plane and required hip slide.

The steeper the plane the less slide is required. The flatter the plane the more slide is required. Why? Because the flatter the plane the more the hands move "behind" you "deeper"- that requires a larger slide of the hips on the downswing for clearance of the hands to make their way to the ball without the right elbow hitting the hip.

The above would hold true to a completely "hand controlled" pivot"- or for a simplified theory with just a couple of factors in play. However, in the real world you can find golfers with steep planes that have more hip slide than golfers with flatter planes. It just depends on what kinds of movements the golfer has memorized and incorporated into his particular swing based on compensations or psychological preferences.

For an example of the simplied theory- if you were Al Geiberger with a fairly upright swing and minimal hip slide- you wouldn't want to look at a Ben Hogan with a flat plane and a tremendous hip slide and say "Gee, I'll maintain my upright swing and I think I'll try to get that big hip slide that I see Hogan had".

Holla back Homey when the medication wears off!

Come on Mikey . . .

The hip action is (hopefully) a blend of turning and sliding in order to keep the club on plane.

What makes the club come out? What makes the club stay in? Which plane has more OUT?

Hogan did slide but he got his hips OPEN too. Much more rotary than a Nicklaus or Watson . . .

How can you "for arguement's sake" take rotation out of the picture? That ain't gonna work. Sliding keeps the hands IN rotation gets the OUT. It's like taking the straight edge puzzle peices out . . . can't do that and have a puzzle.

Dookeyball





If you have a steep plane and high hands you have to slide to keep them from flying out over the plane.

Sorry doofus . . . it's you that's needing a bottle or two of pills. Wipe the boogers out of your eyes.

Here's one of the flattest swings in golf . . . where's the slide Mikey?

Hollerin' back . . . . More steep slidy swings . . . . You find me a steep rotary swing . . . and get back with me . .

Power Play
 

Take your right hand off the club.

Use your left arm and club only and imitate photos #10 and #14.

This is The Flail.

It is "the Swinger's primary concern" (2-K-0).

With just your left arm and club -- and with a bit of additional pressure in the last three fingers of the left hand -- Swing back and through and back and through and back and through. Again, imitate the photos exactly.

Let your Pivot help you. This is important. The left arm has little power other than that which the pivot gives it. Contrast Sergio's belt line in Photo #10 with Photo #14. The Body Rotor turns a full quarter-of-the-way around from Release to Finish Swivel.

Point the butt-end of the Shaft at the Line (first in the Backstroke and then into the Finish). Stick a tee in the butt-end of the grip as a reminder.

Do it.

Learn Plane.

Then, with Body Power supplying the initial Thrust (in the Start Down and Downstroke), let the Club rip past the Left Arm (and your Rolling Flat Left Wrist) through Impact into the Follow-Through and Finish.

Learn Power.

Put up one more sequence and I'll consider that you've proved your point!:)

Chicken . . . . . . . .

Threadjacker.......

Once the release has occured...is the pivot motion mainly concerned with maintaining on plane relationships/alignments? As opposed to powering the post release clubhead motion...

Please dinglesquirter . . . you started the pissin' match . . . I'll take your deflecting as waiving the white flag . . . you still need a ride to Dorkfest?

Dear Boogercatcher- Maybe we could just start our own thread - Mike O and Bucket insult thread- that way when I need to release some stress I could just go there!! I still plan to achieve my goal and win the trophy that says "Lifetime Bucket Banned Award - This award goes to Mike O. for his committment and dedication to the complete and lifetime banishment of 12 Piece Bucket from the LBG forum- signed by all 5,454 members minus one.:eyes: :salut:

I'll hit you with a real "rotation" post coming up and make your eyes spin out of your head :eyes:

Bagger and BamBam - Please print and put these posts in the Bucket file for review by the board- as the evidence clearly mounts- for his
dis-memberment!!!

Man that makes me want to get Daryl fired up again . . .

Bagger this is great stuff. Should this be a thread on it own for further discussion?

Nice try Booger Breath- recruiting some help? but 24 hours later :sleepy: - Daryl's a no show!!! HA! He's probably out of bounds still trying to find his ball!!!!

Let's get back to your slide, rotation, flat, upright- soup!

You said swinging flatter has more rotation and less slide- (even if you didn't say it let's just put the words in your mouth!) I said flatter had more slide and didn't want to talk about the rotation factor as it just confused the issue(then you said I couldn't leave rotation out of the picture- BUT I DID!:eyes: ).

If I bring rotation into the picture on the backswing then flatter does have more rotation. Now on the downswing you would have more slide than if you used a steeper plane on the backswing - as the hip has to clear more for the "deeper" hand position- assuming a straight line effort to take the hands back to where they need to be at impact (or using an aiming point). I think your initial post implied that more rotation meant less slide - as if they were tied together by some opposite relationship.

You know what a right triangle looks like right? Remember when you had that Ronald Regan haircut and you looked like Gumby just got beat with a flour sack?

Well if the plane angle is the hypotenusthingie and the vertical part is the distance from the hands to the ground at the top and the lil' part that connects the vertical part to the ball is the OUT in the plane. There's obviously more OUT in the flatter planes than the steep planes NO?

Soooooo . . . . if you swing on a steep plane then you HAVE TO SLIDE MORE AND EARLY IN ORDER TO KEEP THE HANDS ON THE PLANE . . . PERIOD. That's how it has to work. Try it . . . .take you hands up high like Hoch or Nicklaus . . . if you start down without sliding your hands fly out over the plane.

If you hands are IN, LOWER and DEEP on the flatter planes you have to rotate more or the club gets stuck behind you.

Please look at the pic of Sergio and explain where all this sliding that you speak of???

Here's Chad Campbell . . . where's the big slide?

http://www.golfswinghome.com/chad-campbell