Post impact alignments...
 

I love this photo...

and this swing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GON-jHQJlhE

so much good stuff....impact hand location, awesome footwork...brilliant!!
Even "shoot, hold, rest" look to the finish...

Tiger has played incredible golf the last 5 days... but there are no photos/footage of him that look this good...yet!!

Golfbuldog

I love Hogan's swing and his post-impact alignments.

However, I also love Tiger Woods' swing and I have seen many photos of him looking equally as good post-impact. Here is one.



Jeff.

good youtube link that led me on to some great ones of McClean on Hogan.

Hmmm i guess Hogan played that bunker shot with his left hip and left arm/hand !!!

Tiger is not there yet...although his iron swing with his irons is much closer than some of the swipes he makes with his driver...although he drove well in the closing few holes I saw on Monday.

I think that to keep the right wrist bent this far past impact suggests some rignt triceps...my biomechanics knowledge (pretty limited:laughing9 )but that is the way I see it...

The sand, I suspect, is helping to exaggerate the appearance on this pic...but even then I do not think that many modern players would look like this even out of sand.

Short sand shots often some throwaway (very well timed) is used...this is what Mark Roe has been teaching Lee Westwood if I understood a recent article... and fairway bunker shots...Well, Rocco - for all his great play, did not look like this on the play-off hole.

Rocco had a sidehill lie with the ball sitting down in the bunker. He hit down on it but got over the top and pulled it left. Certainly a bad shot since he had plenty of green to work with if he had kept it right of the green.

You guys have to remember that Ben Hogan's average driving distance was taken at 253 yards. With the technology these days 300+ yards are far more routine. It even means I could hit 3 wood past one of the greats :laughing1. It doesn't take a mathematician to work out that the accuracy required for the increase on drive length is far far higher. Woods would hit the fairway alot more if he was only hitting 250 yards too.

Tiger's Grip
 

I noticed that Tiger's right hand is a little more rolled on the grip to where # 3 is not aft. Am I seeing things? What does he have to do to get the pp behind the shaft? Is that why he practices that (what looks like to me) severe start-up swivel? Els also looks to have the same grip. Does this explain the high right forearm at address? The higher the right forearm at address the more severe the startup swivel? Seems simpler to start with it closer to the plane (sweetspot plane that is)

Over good buddies

PS That was one of the best majors I have ever watched. It comes close to the first I have ever watched, the '86 Masters!

Tale of Two Tigers
 

I agree (and I am no Leibnitz!) BUT...if Hogan had the same technology he would be considerably longer and I dare say still quite accurate. I have watched Tiger on the range as well as on the course. On the range he is a freaking machine, his rhythm (TGM definition of course) is mesmerizing. He overaccelarates on the course especially with the driver...what a great pair of hands he has! I think this knee injury may convince him to keep his rpm a little more constant. When Tiger is in the fairway who can beat him? Range Tiger makes the best move I have ever seen (although I once watched Tom Purtzer hit is like a minor deity for two hours!) Course Tiger is less mechanic and more intuitive genius! I honestly believe that as Tiger "matures" his game will acquire more precision. He already has it mechanically, but he cannot resist slashing one out there 340!

Unfortunately, you are wrong, Matthew. Math is necessary to verify your statement as follows:

- let's assume that an average fairway is 30 yard wide;

- let's assume that post-accident Hogan's FIR was 80% on the average and his average drive was 253 yard long;

- let's assume that Woods's FIR is 50% on the average and his average drive is 305 yard long;

- in order to be on the average fairway after the driver tee shot:
a. Hogan's misses should not exceed 15 yards left or right that makes nearly 6% of allowed deviation margin (15:253=0.059);
b. Woods's misses should also not exceed 15 yards left or right that makes nearly 5% of allowed deviation margin (15:305=0.049);
c. the difference is only 1% that is much much too small a value to justify Tiger's inferior ball striking quality comparing to Hogan's.

- if Woods is the same quality of ballstriker as Hogan was, his average FIR should oscillate between 70 and 75% which is an unreachable goal for him until now;

- Hogan was reported to start almost all par 4's and 5's with his woodenheaded driver, while Woods is often using his #3 wood or a long iron that surely "unfairly" improves his FIR statistics in this context;

- in defense of Woods, we may conclude that today's quasi-roughs on PGA Tour (except US Opens, of course) encourages PGA players to concentrate more on driving distance than driving accuracy. Having said that, IMHO, this fact would not bring Woods much closer to Hogan anyhow.

Please correct me if I am wrong in some of the above points and calculations.

Cheers

great post Darius

Unfortunately Darruis, YOU ARE WRONG.

Ok lets just go along with these assumptions just for now even though they are heavily weighted towards your arguement.

You don't just divide the driving distance (yards) by the fairway with the half of the fairways width(yards) and expect to find anything useful. All you have found is the difference between a fifteenth of their driving distance - you could of just subtracted their driving distances together and divided by 15 and you would of come up with the same answer....an answer which isn't much use for anyone. It doesn't say much about your maths skills or those of GPStyles who seems to think your akin to Albert Einstein.

The correct differences are these.... I've omitted the sums because you won't understand them anyhow...

Woods hitting 300 yards onto a 30 yard fairway has 5.73197 degrees margin for error.

Hogan hitting 250 yards onto a 30 yard fairway has 6.87963 degrees margin for error.

So hogan at 80% FIR having to be 83.4% less accurate than Woods would only hit the fairway 66% of the time at 300 yards.

So where you plucked this number from I do not know - perhaps you clicked your heels together three times.

The pure maths is pointless to the debate and anyhow the maths becomes more in Tigers favour when you increase the fairway from the super tight hypothetical width you set. I could think of plenty of arguements that when added up make the maths arguement sound silly. It would be like a game of Jenga but its your arguement falling after each one of these blocks (variables you have not accounted for) and you couldn't even set the game properly up to begin with because you suck at Maths.

My feeling is that Wood's golf stroke is better than Hogans... You just wanted to try and own me - You tried and you failed... Try harder next time.

I don't know . . . . I think we are severly discounting the amount the old ball spins in this analysis.

AND . . . I think Eldrick was AWESOME this week no question . . . gutz galore . . . But Hogan won his major's on two busted wheels. Tiger's pops said he was more mentally tough than any player period. I'd put Hogan up against him in a minute. Saw his pops kill himself, war, shoulda died in a wreck, and won majors when he couldn't hardly walk. Hard Case From Texas.

Tiger Woods without any doubt the best player to ever lace 'em up. And he's gotta be the best putter period. Think about the the puts he's made just this year. Obviously this week was incredible. But don't forget what he did to JB Holmes and Badds at the match play. Then we swished that eagle putt to win in Doooby or whatever that place is. He's made more feet worth of putts than it takes for Mike O to drive and find sheep he hasn't dated in California.

Uea
 

Dubai...bucket!

Gone off topic...

Nowhere in the first post did I say that Hogan was better striker/driver/golfer than Tiger...

i suggested that the alignments in the photo post impact were better than Tiger.

I complemented Tiger on his incredible play this week...not trying to diss him...

The thread was about alignments...:golf:

1/4 turn
 

The apearance of this pp3 on the top of the shaft is because of the 1/4 turn the right hand specifically pp3 makes to help suppor the loading at the top, it is not manditory to rotate it back to the aft side of the shaft, it is the equivilant of a weak single action grip i bealive comming through

Unfortunately, the #1 thread jacker of all-time - hands down- has entered this thread (12 piece bucket for you rookie forum members) and you have become another victim. Unite with me bulldog on banning this disease from the forum!

In the meantime I'm off to North Carolina and give this thread jacker a lesson!
:turkey:

Better Duck
 

Make sure you pass well North of Texas on your trip Eastward.

Bucket had better Duck out...or Chicken out...or discontinue his fowl habits.
The madman in the Turkey suit has broken out of the San Diego asylum again.

Should I wait for you to edit your post two or three times more or can I comment it now ? :)

Listen, mate - I just done a very simple math to show you that the 50 yds distance that differs Hogan from Woods cannot in any case justify the difference in hitting fairways ability between the two. It was done "on the knee" without trying to going deeper because I did not want to jack the thread more. If you regard my math as useless and my math ability as pathetic - I am fine with it and I can even gladly agree with it since I am not a mathematician and, if you noticed, was kindly asking for a correction from your part in case I was wrong.

But, when somebody as yourself write a sentence like this: I've omitted the sums because you won't understand them anyhow... or you couldn't even set the game properly up to begin with because you suck at Maths it shows only what small caliber and arrogant person you are. Keep your math for yourself then, I am not interested to see it any more (and I honestly was interested until now, since I always like to learn). Save it as well as your pathetic ad hominemremarks to your friends, if you have any.

While I don't agree with Matthew's approach all the time, I must agree with the basis of his argument. The farther you hit the ball, the easier it is to hit it offline. Think about it this way; if you draw a 35 degree liine from a point on the tee out into the fairway, then the farther you go along that line, the farther offline you'll be. If Hogan were to hit it on a particular line and land on the right edge of the fairway, and Tiger hit the exact same line, but fifty yards further, he would be a decent distance into the rough, correct? My point is that the farther the ball travels, the more online it needs to be in order to stay in the fairway.

Hogan vs. Tiger
 

Matthew,

I don't dispute your math. Longer shots on the same angle off line miss the target by more distance. Simple right? Watch the Hogan vs. Snead Shell match at Houston CC. Balls are not just catching the fairway. Hogan is curving the ball so it stays in the center of the fairway as the hole doglegs. "Fit to fairway like hand to glove." This where math gets lost. If the ball is not deflected from the target line, the distance does not factor.

Mikey . .. Just WHAT are you doing to that chicken????

Actually the edit was accidental - I thought I was quoting myself in reference to something but was actually editing the post.

Your maths is not your strong point and is flawed.

Basically you did this sum 300yards-250yards=50yards/15

You tell me what a 15th of the difference between their driving distance is meant to show. I can tell you for certain as someone who is semi-reasonable at maths that it doesn't show anything relating to the mathematical problem at hand.

Really? - Then let me ask you, why did you take the time to write a post that was obviously just going to get lambasted and cause the thread to get jacked further.

Your complete analysis was hideous yes but it was the confidence within your ignorance that I took note with. A tip from experience - if you don't know that something is right - don't post it, unless you wish to ask about it.

Thats not arrogance - Most 15 year olds have these problems all the time at school and is elementary stuff. It is finding the angle of an arc created from the chord (fairway) of a circle in relation to the radius (driving distance) - its hardly like we're trying to solve Fermat's last theorem here....

Wow, isn't this a funny contradiction, not only have you actually done an Ad Hominem you also have created another logical fallacy strawman by saying that I have done an Ad Hominem.

You see (educating you again) - this would be an ad hominem

Darius - states arguement A
Mathew says - your a idiot so therefore you say is just stupid and just naturally be completely incorrect...

What I did was not an ad hominem because an ad hominem is attacking the other persons character to destroy their arguement without having any refutation. I posted the correct mathematical answers and ultimately I stated an arguement .. the fact I put a few remarks that you found insolent doesn't make it an ad Hominem. An insult and an ad Hominem are two different things.

In the process you created a strawman arguement that I was doing an ad hominem.

However you haven't stated an arguement and wish to destroy the validity of my arguement by ad hominems.

Its like a nightmare isn't it..... but its all of your own doing as your initial intention with your post was far more sinister than my out and out refutation of your post. I don't stab people in the back - if I have a problem with a post then I say and I don't hold no punches.... thats just me. I might get critised for it and I could be more PC at times - something I try to work on.

I wrote an innocent enough statement saying that I believe Tiger is better than Hogan and that if he was only hitting the ball 250 yards he would be as accurate... anyone with sence can see there is so many factors but no no no, you came marching on telling me I was wrong and how I was incorrect and the maths does matter. Your intention was to make me sound stupid - which is always a bad thing to try to do with anyone. Unfortunately you just happened to pick on someone that can defend themselves and actually can do the maths properly. Your the bully, so stop trying to paint yourself as the victim.

This is getting wearisome. :(

How can you possibly say that.

Lets look at this in chronological order :

I make an innocent enough comment on my beliefs that Tiger Woods is as good a ballstriker as Hogan if not better.

He starts this whole line and writes in a style that is designed to get a rise out of someone. The manner in which attacks my statement in an obvious attempt to belittle me. You did not edit it which is fine because it doesn't cross the line into personal insults.

I then tell him that maths is not his strong point. Ok I admit I am guilty of being goaded into responding however not one of the comments attacks him as a personal insult. I attack his mathematical abilities and how silly I found his arguement. Not one single personal insult towards him as a person.

He attacks me personally in a totally transparent manner. Now the line should of been crossed. A post that has no purpose other than to try and annoy me and stir - one you should of deleted the moment you saw it... you did nothing about it.

I respond again in a very strongly defensive but collected manner pointing out his hypocrasy, his strawman arguement, his ad Hominems, his personal insults and what his intentions really are. He really is the bully that is acting the victim here... Not one of my responces attacks him personally at least in a direct non-figurative manner.

I emplore you to find one insult which attacks him as a person directly. Sure I attacked his maths skills, sure I said his arguements are absurd, sure I was a lil harsh but you show me one personal insult - just one.

I am more restrained than the other person and if your not going to delete his personal attacks your leaving me no option.

Ive been trying to respond without crossing that line which he broke.

Let me ask you - why are you defending him ?

Actually I want you to delete the two last posts but while his personal attacks remain - so will my refutation because im not prepared to be talked to like that by anyone.

Nice try! Trying to get me banned from the forum for answering that one! :naughty:

childrens games....
 

A simple game of hangman....

T__R_AD JACK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

already tried B, C, D, F, G, I, J, K, L, M, N, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z.....

"you do the math!!!!"

BACK ON TOPIC....

Post pictures of better post impact alignments or set up a seperate thread for your debates about driver accuracy across 2 generations using completely different equipment....an no this last statement is not an invitation for people to answer on this thread...see it merely as a start for your own thread!

Man...i can't find a better picture in my data base. :crybaby: But what do you think if he was not in the bunker? Do you think that the clubhead will catch up the left hand a bit?

I'm not defending anyone, but here's what is bothering me.
This forum exists to promote Lynn and his teaching business, so as a Sr. Member and someone who knows Lynn personally, I hold you to a slightly higher standard of behavior than our newest members.

Your contributions, insights, and dialog with members over the years have been excellent, but something has made a turn for the worse this year and I'm patiently waiting and hoping for it to turn back around.

Because of your contenteous behavior, you are turning off and even running new members off of this site, which is in opposition to our purpose here.

So when I say I'm getting weary and sad, this is why. I want the best from you and for you.

Hmm....maybe check your Avatar!:laughing9 Looking pretty good!!

I think that the bunker has exaggerated the look a little but the way the right arm moves through impact looks more "natural" than Tiger's practice swing when he does a right arm move beyond impact which seems to mimic Hogan?

Needs more work Mathew so please stick to the job at hand: because in your more humble moments you have so very much to offer - for which I, for one, am grateful.

Keep up the good work and just dump the condescension, eh.:salut:

Back On Thread
 

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...1&d=1213972676

Only just past impact but great footwork...great alignments...and straighter hitter than most can dream of!

'unfairly' seems like a odd way to put it and be objective. How many was 'almost' or 'often"?

A 300 yd + driver of the ball increases his chances of being off the green more so than a 250 yd driver hitting the ball in the same direction. Not every shot in golf is a full shot either. Tiger has been ripping up the tour with his chip shots and putting. Hogan hated putters and putting.

Hmm...:redface:..that was just a pitch shot taken for my avatar.

I will try to do a slow motion of the BT clip, as that is a pretty good ahead of front view angle.