Rotators And Thrusters
 

A reader recently wrote and said he followed Brian Gay at the PGA Championship. His observation was that Brian had "no lower body action" and wanted to know if he was missing something. My short answer . . .

"Yes."

Now for more.

Researchers at the Titleist Performance Institute have had thousands of players go through their testing. They have observed two decidely different types of lower body action through the ball and have come to identify the respective players as Rotators and Thrusters.

Brian is a Thruster. His legs straighten through Impact as he launches a Right Arm Muscular Drive off his Right Shoulder. He and I spent considerable time experimenting with the more familiar body rotation and the consequent Left Wrist Centrifugal Throw. Hundreds of practice balls later, we concluded that it's just not his cup of tea.

Regarding any perception of "no lower body action" . . .

:shock:

This is a PGA TOUR player.

Join me on the tee and stand immediately opposite and ahead of him when he hits a shot. Then, in his downswing and through the ball, be thankful you are not caught in the vortex.

:)

Information Sharing At Titleist Performance Institute
 

O.B.,

The descriptive designations of Rotator and Thruster came directly from TPI's Dr. Greg Rose and his interaction with a handpicked team of TGM instructors in a day-long meeting last year. He told us TPI had made the distinction based solely on personal observation of the respective motions.

When we explained the TGM concept of Hitter versus Swinger, there was a collective "Aha!" from their assembled group. Their research had picked up on the two decidedly different Shaft stresses in the Downstroke -- radial versus longitudinal, i.e., back of the Shaft versus top of the Shaft -- but they had no idea what was causing the phenomenon.

I don't have access to any definitive information as to their stats on this subject. It was all new to them, and they had not yet done anything with it. We were told they would do additional work reconciling their ideas with ours and get back to us, but so far . . . nothing. And we've not pushed it.

:)

delete this

Thanks Yoda

Very interesting stuff. Homer would probably have a little smile on his face if he was still with us.

A shaft stress measuring device coupled with a grip pressure point sensor would make for an interesting diagnostic tool ......... in the right instructors hands.

Ive been thinking about radial acceleration in my swinging pattern. I think I used to overload my pp3 radially going back which sent me under plane. I tended to adopt a punch elbow going back and now think it was a subconscious blocking action. Now when I just load my pp3 (in the first knuckle!) at top and arrow from quiver my start down Im good. No hooks, pitch elbow is back, more lag etc. Eureka.

Nowhere else did I find these concepts but right here at LBG. Hope Im getting em right. Even if Im not Im still further ahead.

Homer was a true genius.

O.B.

An appropriate "stress measuring device" already exists. How the clubshaft manufacturers use it -- or even if they use it -- I do not know.

I do know that Homer Kelley used it to build airplanes and to measure the stresses his finished product would have to endure in 'real time'. Did he know what he was doing? Toward the end of his career, only one signature (of tens of thousands of employees) could release a Boeing aircraft as technically fit for sale. That signature was his.

And just what is that device?

The strain gauge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_gauge

Two For the Load
 

Trust me, Jerry . . . all TOUR players have Pivot Lag, i.e., they unwind their bodies powerfully and in sequence from the ground up -- Feet; then Knees; then Hips; then Shoulders. Otherwise, they could not hit the Ball the prodigious distances they do.

This action Loads the Power Package and Transports it (the Power of the unexpended Bent Right Elbow and Cocked Left Wrist / Turned Left Hand) to Release. Then, in an Action that started at the Top with the Lag Loading (7-19) -- Drive-Loaded Right Elbow (Hitters) versus Drag-Loaded Left Wrist (Swingers) -- physics continues to differentiate the Delivery of Hitters from Swingers (Wheel Track Motion versus Wheel Rim Motion / 7-23).

Regarding Kenny Perry, you are making my point: As is Brian Gay, Kenny is a Thruster (Wheel Track), not a Rotator (Wheel Rim).

:)

Long live the Thrusters. Thrusting is the only way I can hit a ball with my back condition. If I went to a rotator for instruction I would be finished with golf forever. This is an important breakthrough with TPI. Before that they were always talking rotators. Lynn pushed the issue so there will be more Thrusters!

More For the Load
 

I've edited my Post #6 above to include more information and references. For Labor Day's 'early responders', it's worth a re-read.

BTW, I fully understand that such detail is of interest only to amateur afficienados and professional Instructors. The former use it to their own edification and advantage. The latter, likewise, but even more, to that of their students. The 'rest of us' should take what we want and what's left over, in the words of my NY friends, Fuggeddabouddet! An alternative is to dump it in your Incubator and come back later.

For Instructors: Should you teach the TGM material 'chapter and verse'?

My opinion -- unless you are in an academic setting -- is a resounding "NO!".

:shock:

Instead . . .

Teach Motion (12-5-0).

Motion aligned Geometrically (2-0); learned Mechanically (3-0); and performed Subconciously (14-0).

As only a few in the world know how to do.

:salut:

Yoda....I work for Boeing...are you sure you're correct about that comment..."Only one signature could release a Boeing aircraft as technically fit for sale"....what aircraft??? A commerical aircraft??? a military aircraft???

What area did Homer work in for Boeing???

DG

A Different Kind Of Man
 

I know only what Homer Kelley told me in recorded conversation. And he stated that fact humbly -- no braggadocio -- in the context of a story involving functional testing and his assigned duties.

The aircraft was the B-47.

Moreover, Homer didn't work in an 'area'. His bosses had tried that years before, and from the shop foremen to the engineers, it didn't work. What was most important to him was to be proven right, and, early on, that mindset did not win many friends in the ranks. But he had the unusual talent of being able to solve "rather intricate problems", and ultimately -- under the time and production stresses of war -- people 'got it' and left him alone to pursue his work. He went where he was needed.

In his last years, he had no title.

Nor did he want one.

He was a maverick.

In more modern times, talents such as his have been institutionalized as 'skunkworks' by large companies drowning in bureauracy but still desperately seeking innovation. As an example, see Lockheed in the Viet Nam days when the C-130 was the big dog. Things couldn't get done fast enough within the corporate flowchart, so major changes had to happen apart from it.

Bottom line: Homer Kelley was outside the norm . . .

And treated as such.

He was motivated by Achievement and Love.

Power (with its money) meant nothing.

:salut:

What TPI does not want known is that the Thruster does not produce the same results or data on their 3-D machine as the rotator. Their buzz word of today is the kinetic chain and how to snap it better for more club head speed. The truth is a thruster on that 3-D machine would not produce the results they want to market their program so MUMS the word on thrusters.

I have done many tests with a k-vest and I know it is not their $100,000 3-D machine but it will show measurements that are consistent when measuring the kinetic chain. I also have a friend who has a 3-D CAD machine and I developed a working device that measures the down swing thrust and torque of a thruster on the handle of the club so I know of the mega power produced in thrusting.

Understood, Bagger . . .
 

All ahead full.

:salut:

teaching
 

How has this denomination of rotators vs thrusters changed the way you teach?

Has this changed the way we look at zone 1 for hitters- I know the book denotes the pivot for hitters as a slide and a turn for the swingers, but is there any drills we can do to sense the small differences between the swing and the hit pivot(rotating vs thrusting)?

Are there any differences in the start down between the two?

vertical drop
 

Yoda,great topic right here,when I use the swingers pattern (Im a hitter) I feel much more at home employing a vertical drop,this in itself probably means little to a lot,but to me being a hitter means so much because I get a definite feel of lag and it doesnt alienate me completly from a hitters feeling of thrust.Also,it assists me with my lever alighnments,is this the feeling I should be persuing,when I pull with my left arm ,it all goes pearshaped..Thanks B

Pure Hitter,
The K-vest have never been tested for accuracy the kinetic chain the K-vest provides isn't accurate.
The reason I say this is hips speed, shoulders speeds are measured at the joint centers of the hips and the shoulders.The sensors for k-vest is in the centre of the hip and the upper body is centre of the spine, how can this possibly give accurate hip and shoulder speeds, the sensors are at least 3inches from the each joint centre on the hip and shoulders. So this doesn't give true speeds of the hips or upper body.
We have compared K-vest and a 6dof system on the same person, your would bee horrified how inaccurate K-vest is.
Also the guy I undertsudy under, helped to start inter grading K-vest and he pulled the pin due to it never being tested and was inaccurate.
K-vest in the end was done by computer designers not biomechanists.

Also for T.P.I they use a Pholhemus system and the accuracy is very questionable, they can't accurately measure joint centres, they place sensor inches away from joint centers of the hips and shoulders, they also use a kinematic sequence which is ignore the law of motion.
T.P.I or K-vest T.P.I wouldn't fit homers work cause homer lives with in newtons laws, the same as other 3D analysis's companies who use the kinetic link which also use newton laws.
I would stick yo guys who work off kinetic link this meshes in with homers work.

What does this mean?

It means he doesn't have spell check.

Not so simple as spell checker.
 

Ease up a little on Bio guys, please.

He has a medical history that would frighten most guys shitless and has fought his way through it in a manner that not many could have.

Bio knows his subject even though he has a bit of a struggle with the written word. So, a little patience and a touch of respect would not go amiss.

Information Appreciated
 

Thank you for the heads up on that Burner!

Kevin

Thanks burner,
Sorry boys missed a few words.
To be honest I'm sick of people like T.P.I misleading the public.
Homers work rocks and his work stays within the newtons laws (physics).
The kinetic link is newton's law which is conservation of momentum and a few other body motion laws.
Kinematic means to ignore the laws of motion.
If you want to research listen to guys who work with Kinetic link if your a homer deciple, they mesh together.

OK . . . . whew . . . . I thought you were one of the dudes we needed to set straight. Thanks for clarifying.

Regards,

B