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Bending the Plane
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These are not illustrations of the Left Arm and Clubshaft at Impact. The Top two Illustrations assume that the Delivery and Plane lines are the same. ![]() The Above picture intends to illustrate what happens when Swinging on the Elbow Plane with a Flat Left Wrist, Uncocks on the Plane of the Left Arm Wedge, but then needs to Roll to another Delivery Line for Impact. |
WOW, it's too early in the morning, the incubator needs some coffee...
I have a feeling when I wake up this post is going to be VERY enlightening! Thanks Daryl. Kevin |
This is very big for me- thank you for posting the drawings!
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I'm waking up, finally, just in time to leave for work. :-(
Daryl, why do you say these alignments are NOT at impact? How and why would they change? You are on a roll this morning, lovin your plane posts. I'll look forward to studying this stuff more tonight. Thanks again, Kevin |
Daryl,
Looking at the pics again, where you say bent and flat left wrist, should it read cocked and level instead? Kevin |
This better explains what I'm trying to say. The Left Wrist is Level and Flat at Impact for Both Procedures.
TGM's Turned Shoulder Plane requires a Release Swivel for the Left Wrist to return to vertical for Impact if the Sweetspot was swiveled to Plane at Start-up. We have ultimate control of the Clubshaft on a Turned Shoulder Plane with the Flat Left Wrist and full use of the #2 and 3 Accumulators. The Right Hand controls the Clubhead on every swing plane but it won't do it at the expense of the Left Arm Wedge when on the Turned Shoulder Plane. The Elbow Plane needs the "Hogan Swivel" to change from a Bent Left Wrist to a Flat Left Wrist for Impact. I don't consider it a True Sequenced Release because all it does is spin the shaft around it's axis. It's like a Ball and Socket Swivel and can accommodate any plane angle with a lost Left Arm Wedge. The Hogan Swivel needs to be Stopped to prevent over swiveling at or before Impact otherwise timing needs to be perfect. I think that this can be done in two ways. First, slam the wrist into an arched position after Uncocking so that the Left Wrist can be held vertical for Impact. Second, use pivot force to overcome the swivel as the left wrist becomes vertical. Arching doesn't need such a driving pivot and my experiments show that it doesn't have the timing issues either. Also, the driving pivot method, which is being talked about (force will create alignments), doesn't lend much confidence when face with a delicate 30 yard pitch shot. If you Bend (Cup) the Left Wrist even only slightly, it is Bent and will require the Hogan Type swivel to prevent bending the Delivery Line. Hogan Swivel ![]() |
Great stuff Daryl! Why would we ever want to go back to the elbow plane? The TSP appears so much simpler a procedure!
Kevin |
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With your Right Elbow on the Shaft Plane (the RFFW), an Elbow Plane in Homer speak, you must get back there to prevent toe down or toe up impact. |
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That would be the mistake many folks make, fitting the lie of the clubs to the address alignments rather than impact alignments. Kevin |
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Plane Shifts do happen, for longer swings anyways, but the straight line Base Line stays put. So keep tracing my friends. 1-L-18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NeizRf3JZY The plane angle you release along is a function of what plane angle shifts you are employing and at what point you release. Its a flat plane yes, like a sheet of glass, that shifts its angle up and down with the base line staying in place. Now if you point the entire flat plane, sheet of glass, left or right of the original target and trace the new straight base line associated with this new plane of motion , then you are said to have "bent the plane" or its base line to the left or the right. This new Delivery Path of the clubhead when combined with variations in clubface angles will produce curved shots for instance. You bend the plane to the right to hit a draw say. Meaning your sheet of glass is pointing right and your clubface is pointed left of that to some degree. The geometry stays the same, you still trace the base line, the plane angle changes etc. |
Man, I keep thinking I know some stuff, but every day I learn something new from an entirely different perspective. Thanks guys for keeping this fun!
Kevin |
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Seriously, people are going to believe you if you don't get back here and tell them you're only pranking them. Quote:
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You worked hard on that, but when I imagined Kev trying to get to impact with a zeroed out #3 angle on a TSP angle, I had to, delicately, suggest another view of things. I didnt enjoy doing it.
I dont want to sound like Batman talking to Mr Freeze but if only your debauched genius were put to some common good. |
OK after doing some research, I must retract my bent plane line procedure of post 10. That procedure being more correctly described as a straight base line, geometrically correct deal per 10-5-E Closed closed.
A bent plane line is an off plane, unscientific method without proper straight base line tracing. Quote:
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My post has been incubating for years. The illustrations took a few minutes. But they aren't Impact Illustrations. At Impact, even on the Turned Shoulder Plane, ideally the Left Wrist is Level. Therefore, there will be an angle between the left arm and clubshaft. It's reduced because of the necessity to reduce the #3 Accumulator Angle to use the Turned shoulder Plane, but it nonetheless exists. But this post is about release motions and bending the Plane line. Both halves of the release motion should occur on the same plane line (delivery line) else the clubhead orbit becomes 3 dimensional. Can the Flat Left Wrist be used with a Double Plane shift? I said no, that the wrist should be bent. But, you can have a Flat left wrist if you keep the clubshaft on the elbow plane during the downstroke AKA Sergio Garcia. The Hogan Swivel is not the TGM swivel. I had always thought it was but I don't anymore. I do think that the Hogan swivel helped Hogan prevent Bending the Plane-Line. But it's not the only way. Questions remain. What is the relationship between bending the left wrist and clubshaft plane? |
I think that Bending the Plane line is a universal problem and lots of Golf Methods deal with solving the problem without truly understanding it.
"Tripping the Shaft" is a term used to name the Hogan Swivel. "Forcing Alignments" through an explosive Pivot is still another way of dealing with the problem of bending the Plane Line and Dante's Magic Move was another. Others, like Byron Nelson, solved the problem by dropping his entire right side downward to drop the Turned shoulder plane onto the elbow plane in order to use a Flat Left Wrist. It's odd that none of them discovered the Turned Shoulder Plane and Flat Left Wrist relationship. But every one of those solutions has worked and they've been proven reliable in competition. It's great that TGM helps you understand that. |
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In the above quote you seem to be saying that a TSP angle at Impact is steep. What Im saying is that the TSP angle steep though it is, is not an angle for Impact but more of a Startdown plane angle prior to a shift to a lower plane. The impact plane angle must be the clubs lie angle in terms of degrees vs vertical. So if you were to make contact on a TSP angle it would have to be an extension of the clubs lie angle that bisected the turned right shoulder at top. Cant do that with all the clubs in your bag very easily. Maybe if you bent the lie angles on every club to conform to where your right shoulder turns to or something. |
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Keep in mind that by sacrificing the Left Arm Wedge and Flat Left Wrist until Impact, makes sensing drag at startdown more difficult. Everyone has felt how much more heavy or resistant the club feels at start down when everything is aligned on one plane. Quote:
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Then, please see the photo of a golfer on the turned shoulder plane at impact in post #18. We aren't taking about Impact and the Flat and Level Left Wrist. The thread topic is "Bending the Plane". :boxing: Did Hogan have a Flat Left Wrist throughout his Downstroke and Release, and Shift planes and Uncock and roll on the same delivery line? No, he didn't have a Flat Left Wrist during the Downstroke. All that I've said about Hogan was that he found a way to uncock and roll on the same delivery line by using his "Swivel" as illustrated in "5 Lessons" and presented in post #6 above. :occasion: ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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D thanks for the info on the radiused soles. I hadnt seen that, it makes good sense. TSP lives I guess for some.
But this fella you show here. That is a very steep plane he is on. You dont show him at impact exactly or at Top to see where his right shoulder is. To my eye he looks more like: Quote:
I prefer a lower plane angle for impact myself. Homer said we generally use the Elbow Plane almost totally subconsciously which to me implies that it is very "natural", if you will. Im assuming the Right Elbow to be on the clubs shaft plane, lie angle, which isnt necessarily the case. http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=125841663 5 http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=125841663 5 |
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How is this a bent plane line???
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Well, I agree that the TSP isn't for everyone. I also agree that the Elbow Plane is more natural although I think that Homer's use of the word unconscious meant "without consideration".
But release motions need to occur on the same delivery line or else the clubhead orbit becomes 3 dimensional. So, those with Hand paths not matching the Clubshaft plane or vice-a-versa, will need some mechanism to arrive at impact without bending the delivery line. Ben Doyle has suggested that the Plane might be concave. I haven't found much to support that but I find lots of ways golfers get-around the problem. That's a problem that anyone with a downstroke plane shift must resolve (Hand paths not matching the Clubshaft plane). "Plane Shifts are Hazardous". But anyone with Hand paths matching the Clubshaft plane can use a Flat Left Wrist Throughout the Stroke and a TSP offers that and more. Most of my video of Hogan's swing shows that he mastered getting the Clubshaft On plane at the end of startdown, yet he still used the Hogan Swivel where a Flat Left Wrist would work perfectly well. With Shorter clubs he didn't do as well so maybe he figured keeping it for all strokes was better than forgetting to use it on shorter length clubs. |
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[quote=12 piece bucket;69036]Doo Doo Ball . . . how is this NOT a flat left wrist???
It may very well be a Flat Left Wrist. I wish I had video or pictures of Hogan executing chip and pitch shots because I betcha he used a Flat Left Wrist procedure with those strokes. But, you must admit, along with the golfing world, that typically, Hogan used a Bent Left Wrist during his downstroke. It's getting cold outside, almost winter. Have you brought the Hogan Shrine indoors yet? Winter is a harsh environment to be on your knees an hour each and every day. |
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While he recommends using a bench or rail for demonstrative purposes he doesnt preclude a plane shift during Release. Quote:
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The geometry is confusing but for a flat plane ,that shifts angles, the straight line base line stays the same, the club rides the plane with one end or the other pointing at the base line BUT ASSUMING A SHIFT THE HAND PATH, DELIVERY PATH IS NOT A STRAIGHT LINE. See 10-23-B, C and D. Each photo of Dianne in 10-23-B #1, 2, 3 has her club pointed at the straight line base line. Her Hand Path running down plane, her club following and doing likewise. Quote:
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Shift'n isnt a bad thing. Not at all. |
Where does Homer mention that the Hand Path (Delivery Path) must match the Clubshaft Plane? Assuming one is using the TSP the Hands and the clubshaft travel this plane for instance no? If you are tracing.
You may know the concept by its Given Name. “Left Arm Flying Wedge” While he recommends using a bench or rail for demonstrative purposes he doesnt preclude a plane shift during Release. It isn’t the Plane shifting but the risk of the 3 dimensional Clubhead orbit resulting from a shift not properly compensated. OK I think I get you, now. The geometry is tuff. I have it on good authority that you can with great effort seek to understand it or you can merely trace a straight line Base Line and you'll be ok. A concave plane is not a plane, not a flat plane and therefore wouldnt have a straight line base line. So in fact youd be tracing a new base line or lines and by definition you'd have a bent plane line. Wow. Great thinking. That got by me. The geometry is confusing but for a flat plane ,that shifts angles, the straight line base line stays the same, the club rides the plane with one end or the other pointing at the base line BUT ASSUMING A SHIFT THE HAND PATH, DELIVERY PATH IS NOT A STRAIGHT LINE. See 10-23-B, C and D. Each photo of Dian in 10-23-B #1, 2, 3 has her club pointed at the straight line base line. Her Hand Path running down plane, her club following and doing likewise. For a Swinger to uncock on the left arm wedge when its delivery line is not the plane line where the ball sits, will require taking the Clubhead out of orbit to reach the ball. Additionally, not executing the “Roll” at the Hinge, will take the Clubhead out of Orbit. Shifting your weight is hazardous. Going to End instead of Top is hazardous. Homer used that Hazardous sentence in connection with choosing a Plane Angle higher than the TSP, it requiring a shift back to the TSP before Startdown. That is hazardous, but still good enough to win many a major championship. And Country Club Championships as well. IMHO, “Hazarous” is code for “find a compensation”. You're going to have send a diagram on what this relationship means to you. Where is this in the book? What do you mean by clubshaft plane here? Look at Dianne in those photos, her hands and her clubshaft are traveling the same plane angles as she shifts. I see the misunderstanding. Homer is providing photographic aid to help people understand Plane Shifts. Plane Shifts don’t cause Bent Delivery Lines, uncocking off plane or rolling off plane does. So, if you’re uncocking on the Plane of the Left Arm Wedge, but the Left Arm Wedge is not on the Impact Shaft Plane, then you’ll be uncocking off plane. If a Swinger with a sequenced release doesn’t “Roll” at the Hinge, then he’ll “Roll” off plane. If your Left Arm is pointing to the ground 12” inside the Plane line, and you uncock on the Plane of the Left Arm Wedge (left arm wedge has a flat left wrist), how is the Clubhead going to reach the Plane Line? This boils down to the Left Arm Wedge. The Wedge has a Flat Left Wrist. At release, if the Left Arm Wedge is On Plane and when you Uncock the Left Wrist, the Clubhead path is On Plane headed toward the delivery line, then...... But what if you Lower your left hand to the Elbow Plane (about 6"). Can the clubshaft uncock toward the delivery line and left arm wedge plane with a flat left wrist at the same time? Quote:
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The Left Arm is not on the Inclined Plane (see photo 10-13-D #2) , unless #3 angle is zeroed either by gripping the club along the life line as in putting or when the left wrist is fully uncocked, post impact. The Left Arm is on the Plane of the Left Arm Flying wedge however. The vertical plane, the plane of the left wrist cock and uncock. The Left Wrist is geometrically flat only, not literally flat. But Cocking and Uncocking of the Left Wrist seems to me to be done on the Inclined Plane. I realize the inconsistency here. Its still in the incubator for me. I can only say that the cocking and uncocking is along the Inclined Plane and at whatever Plane Angle that may be, given shifting. Meaning shifts dont make plain line compliance, tracing or on line release difficult to my mind. I realize that given this riddle you have chosen the other way round. The uncocking is along the plane of the LFFW. Meaning the left hand is not on the inclined plane and neither is the clubshaft, nor any release motions. My head hurts again. But Im a Hitter, or a Swinger with thoughts primarily of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge and its frozen right hand staying on the plane the right wrist bend at all times and the pp#3 tracing. Its easier on my brain. |
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This is about Release Motions and concerns the Left Arm Wedge Location and Angle where Release is Concerned. Quote:
In the above paragraph, you said that "Cocking and Uncocking is along the Inclined Plane". That's exactly as it should be except replace "Plane" with "Delivery Line". So, for swingers that have swiveled to plane on the backstroke, you would also agree that if your Left Arm pointed inside the Plane Line (Left Arm Wedge) then you need to Bend your Left Wrist so that your Clubshaft will be on plane when you Cock and Uncock? Hitters using a Single wrist action downstroke don't have this problem. .......... But a Single Wrist Action On Plane Release is a mind numbing experience to visualize and execute without a Plane Board for training. AND, you can't "Swing" a Single Wrist Action On Plane Release (not without other problems). It requires Right Arm Thrust down the Angle of Approach. ..........Hmm? Maybe that's the simplest procedure of all. ...... Imagine the complexity of holding the left wrist vertical and yet keeping the shaft on plane during release. Quote:
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More trade-offs. Hit or Swing. |
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I admit there is some fog around the geometry of the plane of the left wrist cock and the on plane release motions for me. I do. You cant cock the left wrist vertically along the plane of the left arm flying wedge and be on plane when the left arm isnt on plane, I dont think. But I know from my own experience that you dont need to manipulate the left wrist to do so (which is per Homer a clubface manipulation as opposed to a shaft plane manipulation as you suggest). Nor do you need to zero out #3 and swing on a super steep, what you call a TSP but which looks more like a Left Shoulder Plane to have release motions on plane and straight line base line compliant. This I know from experience although I do get the geometric reason for your assertion. Is anyone listening to this or is it just you and me? What were we talking about again? After we knock this doozer off I have a few questions about the Angle Of Approach. |
Obviously, we failed to change each others mind. Perhaps if I were more knowledgeable or used video I could have explained my thoughts more clearly. :)
I'm convinced that Uncocking and Rolling on the same delivery Line is a problem for most Golfers. I thought that Uncocking off-plane was an easy point to illustrate. Once one learns to Uncock on plane, he needs to understand how to roll on the same delivery line. That's more difficult to illustrate and explain even though it seems completely clear to me. I think that Hitters and Swingers have different Problems and maybe this is one that Hitters don't have. |
I studied Video's today of Hogans swivel. I clearly see a Bent Left Wrist during the downstroke and into release. It seems his swivel is a mechanism that Transforms an on plane left wrist into a Vertical Left Wrist for release and impact. Uncocking is on a Vertical Plane of motion and he uses a simultaneous release.
I observed the swivel in short and long shots. When we see his left wrist arch, it is the arching that creates the vertical left wrist. So, the swivel transformed his standard wrist action downstroke to single wrist action for release and impact so that bending the delivery line wasn't an issue. Anyone can use Hogans swivel and experiment themselves and arrive at this same conclusion. |
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Am curious to see where this goes. Plane bending must imply some form of steering. Not in the usual golf sense perhaps. But still. Linear forces that partly drive the club away from the ball. Then linear that partly works in another direction than the object they are applied on. Forces to correct the offset created earlier in the stroke. Some work will be done that is counterproctive in a strict geometrical sense in the early part of the downstroke. And some of the linear forces will be "wasted" on bending the plane, which isn't really work in a Newtonian sense and which will not energize the clubhead either. But maybe there is some good physiological justification for it still. |
Some Pics to Ponder
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Daryl,
Hogan's left wrist looks flat to me prior to release... I tried the bent left wrist at release and I could not get arched fast enough...got flat...but had some over-roll issues... w/ a flat left wrist the clubhead came around the corner nicely on the elbow plane. Lake |
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I see what you see. The left wrist looks flat. But do you see that the shaft in the first picture isn't on the elbow plane as it is in the last frame? That's not typical Hogan either. Look at the pictures in post #20. All videos that I reviewed are on You tube. I'm not surprised, given the time period, that so few videos exist. But in "Five Lessons" every illustration shows a bent left wrist during the Downstroke. Look at his Waggle in "Five Lessons". His waggle is unusual because at the end of his backward waggle his left wrist is vertical. Nobody I've seen waggles that way except BH. See page 99 and notice his Vertical Left Wrist in illustration #1. First Paragraph, page 101, is his great description of a Simultaneous Release assisted by Arching the Left Wrist. Look at the famous swivel sequence on page 102. The First Illustration having a Bent Left Wrist, the second, a Flat Left Wrist and the fourth illustration is clearly a Vertical Left Wrist. Page 106 illustrates his Downstroke sequence and #2 shows his Bent Left Wrist Downswing. It appears to me that his swivel transformed an On Plane Left Wrist with Standard Wrist Action to "Single Wrist Action". The illustration below is not "Time Sequenced". Viewing his video in slow motion reveals that the distance between hand position 1&2 is about 2 inches but between 2&3 as much as 6 inches. So his Left Wrist became Vertical long before Impact. ![]() The following quote is taken from "The Secret" by Martin Davis. It's on the "Ben Hogan" golfclub website. (http://www.benhogan.com/legacy/book/chap2.html) 8th paragraph. Quote:
I didn't claim that BH Cupped his left wrist .....Ben Hogan did. My claim is that while on an Elbow Plane, his cupped Left Wrist, weak grip, and his swivel, combine to transform a Standard Wrist Action to Single Wrist Action and prevented Hogan from "Bending the Delivery Line" because it allowed him a Simultaneous Release. A Simultaneous release won't bend the Delivery Line. His early release allowed him the space needed to complete the swivel and create a vertical left wrist well prior to impact. Although the Left Wrist for Swingers and Hitters is considered Vertical for Impact, they don't become vertical in the same location before impact. Quote:
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If one end of the club is pointing at the plane line you're good.
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