Angles and arcs
 

Is it correct to assume that longer arcs are shallower than short ones?

Not Necessarily.

Daryl are these views from the sky down or from face on? If the latter, I think this proves my assumption. I have trouble wrapping my mind around a shallow and short arc. If a club comes in steep, the arc would be short, and still short if it exits steep.

They're face on. But you make a good point. Angle of Attack. Divot depth is related to ball position vs. Low Point.

Theoretically, if you played a wedge and the ball was located at Low Point, then you wouldn't have a divot. Conversely, play a two iron with the ball 6" back and you'll have a divot.

I think if any club was chosen and contact was prior to low point did we would see a divot.

That being said, and disregrding ball position and contact, is there an instance where creating a longer arc produce a steeper angle of attack

Well. If you want to get into pulley size and all of that, then I'm sure someone can exaggerate a swing and have a steeper angle of attack with a Driver than when using a wedge especially if using an outside-in swing.

But if we limit the parameters to club length and an On Plane swing, then the longer the club, the shallower the angle of attack. But divot depth is strictly related to shoulder to ground distance and ball location to low point.

I'm with you the shoulder distance and divot depth.

I don't fully understand what you mean with pulley size

Pulley size refers to the Endless Belt Analogy. A small pulley being a late release of #2 Angle, left hand wrist cock with an associated increase in the Angle Of Attack.

Not sure I understand what you are referring to when you say "create a longer arc", since it could be done in several manners. Using Homers geometry and speak, the Radius of the swing is the distance from the Left Shoulder to the Low Point and is therefor a function of the length of the club used. For any particular club length or swing radius, the more Sweepish the Release the more the clubhead path approaches the maximum Radius, circumference, width associated with a zeroed out #2 angle, no left wrist cocking, constant full lever extension and minimal Angle of Attack.

So assuming a steady center, left shoulder (you cant draw perfect circles without a fixed center point) the Angle of Attack is a function of the length of the club shaft and the pulley size. Take a look at Hogan's backswing vs downswing here. Different angles, clubhead paths due to differences in his (Primary) lever extension going back (lagging takeaway) vs down (snap release).




http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=126012341 0

Very clear. Thanks.

Luke had me goofing with Pulley Size via Float Loading this fall and I noticed a real difference in the Angle of Attack with the later release and ball flight.

The clubhead does actually describe a steeper path so its feels very downish and it is literally, but not in a way that would actually change the depth of low point, the position of the base of the plane or depth or your divot say assuming you get to full lever extension. There is only so far down you can go for any particular Radius/club assuming you dont move the left shoulder down. Lynn has said that most people dont go all the way down to full lever extension and therefor never fully acquire all of the Down and Out available to them. Leaving them somewhat short in the quest for Three Dimensional Impact.

Hogan and Moe didnt recock the club very quickly so their clubhead paths/ circles would be wide post low point. A bending left wrist or a quick recocking would have a steeper angle, narrower path when viewed from straight on. Im not sure why they did that or what the cause and effect of it was. Maybe just a little "hold off" fade move? Two guys who didnt want to go left? I dunno. Do you have any ideas?

Plane angle is a factor too of course when considering the steepness of the Angle of Attack. The flatter the plane angle the shallower the Angle of Attack. Off plane, over the top moves get more Vertical and therefore steeper. Those divots that you see that point way to the left are often pretty deep too, eh Slice? Man those things are uglier than the Leafs game in Boston last night. And that was pretty ugly. The game in Montreal on the other hand was a beauty eh? Hope you have Leafs tv hooked up down in Florida.

OB - I have 2 favorite teams in hockey: the Senators and who ever is playing against the Leafs. I heard the Leafs organization bought 30 CL corporate memberships because they can start playing in mid April when the courses open. :dance:

Great comments btw. when amatuers are working on their swing, they hear alot: hands ahead, forward learning clubshaft, divot in front of the ball - at least from good teachers. The thing with this is that it can be overdone because full extension is that much closer to flipping it. the reason I think that hogan and moe can keep the club on a shallow arc or angle post impact is because they delayed the angle release very well and when they did dump them into impact, their solid pivots continued the motion back up the plane. When we hear about their swing planes and swing patterns, their pivots were tremendous in continuing the movement of the power package.

Sometimes the wide/long circle post impact is a result of a path that is too far out to right field. both moe and hogan kept it on plane after impact, with this wide arc and shallow angle. most of us who try to keep it planed after contact may do so by ripping it left and/or up and disrupting the backside of the circle plane. I think the pivot is a major force behind the wide shallowness of their followthru.

There are implications with regards to plane angle and #3 angle in this discussion. I would contend that on the "flatter" planes . . . the club is MORE "up" vertical from the ground at a given point in the swing . . . almost counter intuitive. But I think there is more descent inherent in the flatter planes . . . could be wrong though.

if we think of the shaft moving just above the 1st parallel in the backswing, the shaft would probably have to get steeper earlier but I would think that after the 2nd shaft parallel (or top of swing), the shaft would start down flatter and comes into the 3rd parallel from a flatter position if working on flatter planes.

Dude I thought you were pulling my leg about liking the Senators. Nobody likes the Senators.. I grew up in Ottawa and even I dont like them......but I did leave town before they existed but that wouldnt have made a difference anyways. The Roughriders though , thats a different story. Landsdown Park, Tom Clements, J.C. Watts.... its all good. But the Senators? There are "transgressions" and there are some serious transgressions. This admission of yours is the latter. I hear that Alfie plays at my parents old golf club though, the Royal Ottawa. Thats about the only thing I like about him. Thanks for the crack about Club Link too. You really know how to hurt a guy. When the Leafs do finally make it back into the playoffs I hope we play you guys first. Lots of great memories there. We'll have to recount them some time.

Totally agree on the Pivot thing. Id add the Left Arm blasting off the chest too. If the left arm stops, the hands stop, the clubhead overtakes the hands and the hands recock either with a flat or bending left wrist. "Swinging from the Hands". I know there are some folks who like to keep the left arm pinned to the chest but........getting to both arms straight, Follow Through, is so, so powerful even when hitting little chips. Anything else disrupts the correct geometry of the clubheads orbit with a resulting loss of compression. I'd been chipping for decades but when Yoda showed me what getting to both arms straight did for compression even on a chip shot, I had a real "what the deuce" moment. Once you feel it you want it in all your shots, although I dont do it when putting as of yet .......though Homer would want me to.

I dont know anything about teaching new golfers, but as for full lever extension approaching flipping, the thing I find helpful is the understanding, perception of the correct manner or direction in which to uncock the left wrist. Take the Swingers Sequenced Release for instance, the Left Hand uncocks On Plane towards the Base Line with the hands turned to the plane. Once you get to the bottom, the #3 Swivel's on its own it seems. #2 then #3 sequentially but with the left hand turned to plane. This might scare the heck out of a guy who fights a slice but for a hooker it'd probably be o.k. I dunno. Most new golfers seem to push on the back of the club in effort to undo their angles completely prior to impact. Leaving them with a flip, throwaway, bent left wrist and zero right arm bend left for the ball (which they need be they swingers or hitters). Pushing on the pp#3 in the first joint with a straightening un frozen right hand, radial acceleration instead of pp#3 in the knuckle, longitudinal acceleration. It can be a perceptual problem, another "seems as if", very logical but totally destructive thing. The misaligned forces they bring to bare actually necessitating a bending left wrist.

With training you can uncock the left wrist quite forcefully, the Left Wrist Throw for instance. 10-20-E. You can absolutely hammer the lever extension but when done in an on plane manner with the hands turned to plane and followed by a swivel, a roll, the left wrist will not bend. Correct Hand Motions , Left hand vertical only, right hand horizontal only with the right hand frozen at its Fix position really helps in this regard.

Sorry for rambling, I guess Im just trying to say that getting all the way down (and therefor all the way out given the inclined plane) and not bending the left wrist is what its all about. It can be done. Guys like you probably never had to learn how to do it or even think about it until you started teaching the less fortunate guys.

You dont have a Senators putter cover or anything do you?

12 P, do you mean a higher set of hands at address for flatter planes? Less #3 angle?

I was thinking about the old ferris wheel (all DOWN no OUT) vs the merry go round (all OUT no DOWN) analogy. The more upright the inclined plane angle gets the more Down and the less Out and vice versa. The flatter the plane angle the shallower the Angle of Attack.

There is the VJ Trolio Hands Only Plane flop shot for instance where you set the hands low low low (you'll have to forget about the on plane right arm for this one) with the wedge laid wide open, like laying on its back open and then swing along or underneath if you can, the hands plane. This takes out most of the Down, the club scalping the turf for a longish way due to the super shallow Angle of Attack, making contact easier and ball placement less critical. Its a weird one but it send the ball straight up in the air.