Pro's and Con's
 

Fellow members,at the moment i'm still on basic motion and can do it in my sleep as now its second nature.having watched alignment dvd cise 1 over and over and over i personally use the hitting motion for basic movement.the contact is more crisper and most importantly-i find it very easy to use this technique.



my question is

what are the pro's and con's of using either swinging or hitting.is consistancy the same or distance or accurancy and so on

also during the dvd vj mentioned that its easier to learn how to use swing rather than hit but in my case im finding it more beneficial using hitting during basic motion-even though i can perform the 2 swings i still find hitting better


any thoughts

regards

Welcome to the forum x-man.

The pro's and con's of hitting vs swinging are a topic of much discussion, although I think it is fair to say that hitting is simpler for shorter shots, swinging for longer shots.

That said, you'll want to focus on just one of those until you reach 'expert' stage with your motion, and odds are your current motion tends towards one or the other.

Personally, I find hitting to be more accurate, and swinging to be more powerful for a given amount of effort, but that said the physics of both tend to even out and overall distance and accuracy is the same, it is a matter of what your natural motion is more than anything.

You are on the right track building up your motion from the short shots to the longer ones, and the information in the dvd's is as good as you will find anywhere. If you haven't already looked through them, there are some outstanding videos in the gallery section that are well worth the time to view.

Yes agreed and welcome X-man. You're building yourself a Machine in the right order. Its the best way to do it, for sure.

If you have the book read up on the Minor Basic Strokes and the Major Basic Strokes. There are options. I mention this because when I went from a Hitting Basic Motion to Total Motion I was at first working under an assumption that was incorrect. While in Basic Motion I was using Push Basic, a pure inline thrust of the right arm as demonstrated by VJ in the discs. A great and simple option but not a thing to employ in a Hitting Major Basic Stroke. There you need a Punch Elbow. Not a pure linear thrusting of the right arm more of a throwing motion with the Right Elbow leading the hands towards Release.

Something to think about as you work your way from Basic to Acquired to Total Motion if your Hitting. Good luck with it, its a great way to learn control and it'll revolutionize your short game when you start to move the ball around and employ different Hinge Actions.

thanks for the replies guys.at this moment of my very early learning i guess i have 2 options on how to swing the club ie-hot/swing.its always good to have an option in whatever you do and we are all different both physically and mentally.

another thing that was mentioned on the dvds was the right arm.i never knew the right arm basically controlled the left and over the last few months i was always trying to take the club back with the left arm to top.lynn even said that the right arm controls the hinge of the left and clearly demo'ed it which cleared up alot for me.

all i can say guys is thank you for everything and the wealth of knowledge here on this site is immense and the help is second to none and thank you all.the dvds are simply great and self explanitory but its always good to ask more

If you do both well it probably won't make too much of a difference. But I believe the two differs in their most typical less-than-perfect ball striking. After reading chapter 2 a few years ago and really understanding the issue of ball compression, and reflekting upon the typical weak spots on my long game I converted to a swinger. Don't know whether I was a swinger or a "switter" before but there certainly was more drive loading, compression leak and a figting with clubhead throwavay involved. It truly was a high-maintainance stroke pattern. Of course since I converted to TGM the stroke is solid at all times. :grin: :grin: :grin:

Swinging is more geared towards pivot driven loading action and automatic release. And horizontal hinging. All of these will support more reliable distance on full shots. With an automatic trigger etc it can be almost like an on/off button and you get very similar distance each time. But the other side of the coin is that it can be more difficult to take off a few yards in a controlled manner. And to control direction.

Hitting to me means less distance reliability on full strokes. But better direction control. Hitting is less automatic and in many ways more manually controllable than swinging in this regard. That makes it just easier to take off a few yards when it is called for. If you master the stroke. Something I don't consistently do on the total motion.

You can have some of the hitting "advantages" in the swinging stroke too - and you should if you aim for swinging. It is related to extensior action and proper application of pp#1 and pp# 3 pressure (right hand pressure) at the right times. Powered by the pivot and fine-tuned by the hands.

Whether hitting or swinging I find that right side participation is very important to achieve any finesse and shot making ability in the game. And absolutely vital for distance and trajectory control in the short game.

X-Man,

Some great replies already. Hitting and swinging is going to be a fairly even split here, I believe.

My issue with swinging is trust. You have to let the CF happen, if you don't trust it, and "flinch" you will lose it in a hurry. I learned from personal experience with a bad case of the driver yips. A conversion to "Hitting" and the Magic of the Right Forearm saved my bacon.

You will read on some forums that there is no such thing as hitting and swinging. BS! It is a very real "FEEL" to most of us who study it.

Here is the best advise from YODA and Homer Kelley:

If you don't like a given Component Variation, recommended or otherwise, then Homer Kelley would be the first to tell you to avoid it and use something else. The reasons for 'not liking' something ranges from physical inability to execute to psychological. There are ten trillion Strokes in TGM, roughly half Hitting and half Swinging. Use the one(s) you like. Again quoting Homer, "Do whatever you like. Have fun! Enjoy the game!" THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT.

and

Alignment Golf simply smothers Position Golf, so translate your “Position Procedures” into “Alignment Procedures” as fast as you are able to do so. Alignments in motion produce feel.

Finally

THE SECRET OF GOLF IS NOT A POSITION IT’S A PRESSURE!

Kevin

Kevin,

i am doing basic motion 10days now.i hit an average 500balls over the day into a net and i must admit the motion becomes second nature once you understand and familiarise yourself with the movement.my background comes from track and field and i spent years in UH texas under the guidace of tom tellez.he had us doing specific movements and i think this is why i'm grasping these movements of TGM so easily but with aot of hard work.

from my short time of practice using TGM personally i find hitting during the basic motion far superior. WHY? because i know and most importantly feel the positions while hitting.i can feel and hear the compression and crispness of the stike and also i can feel the FLW.the hitting motion is very very similiar to a karate move which i have firmly place in my subconsious mind.

last but not least on the AL dvd lynn demonstrated a drill by simply using your right arm to move your left.i think its called "the magic right forearm" and he also showed a fuller version on VJ which both are superb.

for me i'm definitley pointing to hitting because of the feel aspect of the movement

Is this a right armed thrust as if at a guys nose with the right hand bent back? That is something I think about in regard to Push Basic.

This holding of the right wist in its impact fix degree of bend while straightening the right arm (in one manner or another) is "golfs unique move" according to Homer. A movement not commonly found in other sports and of critical importance to a swinger or hitter, something that needs to be trained and ingrained.

I too think that in Basic Motion getting to both arms straight, Follow Through, with the Right Hand still bent in its prescribed Fix degree of bend (which depends on ball placement and shot at hand) leads to fantastic compression. I found it easier to do while Hitting as well but everyone is different.

OB correct.....we are on the same wavelenght here.

i am getting great answers here and alot of help but i have one more question which i feel is also very important

Q-as i am still in basic motion its a short movement but my query is in regards to taking the club to top with the right forearm.......do all TGM students take or are thought to take it back the same way whether you are hitting or swinging during total motion??


the reason i am asking this is because very shortly i think ill be doing acquired motion(maybe after the new year) and its something i want to understand

I'm not sure about all TGM students, but I think they should. I KNOW all Lynn Blake students do! :yoda:

Kevin

I don't think there are any real pros and cons across the board.

I can do everything with the ball swinging that I can do with hitting and vice versa.

I choose hitting because it's something I can do the most consistently and I control the clubface the best using a hitting procedure.

However, for others it's quite the opposite.

Some will say that swinging can hit the ball further, I completely disagree with that. Kenny Perry is a hitter. And from looking at Alvaro Quiros' swing sequence, I think he's a hitter as well.

Some say hitting is more accurate. Moe Norman was the most accurate golfer of all time and was clearly a swinger in my book.

I think whether you hit or swing the best is just something that probably has to do with your brain and how you were brought into learning the game.

In other words, just focus on what works best for you instead of compiling a list of perceived pros and cons and choosing what procedure to use from that. I think Homer would've wanted it that way.




3JACK

Good reply Richie,

I plateaued this year because I was listening to too many different people and fell in love with the idea that hitting would make me more accurate.

a s anatural swinger, once I went back to a pure pivot driven swing my golf has improved immensely.

Certain people will say that a hitter is more consistent because a swinger requires an oiliness gained from spending all day every day at the range whereas a hitter is lower maintenance. My own experience suggests otherwise and anyway, to me, heaven ai all day veryday at the range, its definitely no chore!

X-man, trust in what Tom tells you, walk before you begin running and stick to one guy only until you reach a level beyond his ability or until you have sufficient knlwledge to determine that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

The absolute worst thing you can do in these early days is listen to too many people telling you too many different things.

YKB*


*Yoda knows best

A lot of great advise in that post Mr. GPStyles!

I long for the days when I could trust CF to rifle that little sucker down the middle!

Kevin

I must apologise for my post above. Tesco's (big grocery store in UK) is doing a deal on a very nice red that normally sells at £8 a bottle. Now it is 3 for £10. I have decided this will be my christmas wine and with my dad have been doing quality control tonight. The first two have been fine, we might open one more to be sure (to be sure, to be sure).

Yes, I had to go through this post several times before submitting it!

I'll toast with you BRO.

Here's to Lynn Blake, BamBam, and all our friends at LBG!

Cheers,
Kevin

:thumright :thumleft: :dance:

GP thanks for your reply.meeting tom early next week and can't wait.once the merc hits the M50 west-link it will be cruisecontrol the whole way.ill let you know how i get on


thanks all and good debate with solid info

Yes Id agree with Kev. Swinging or Hitting we take it back with the same RFT, fanning and bending. The left wrist action will be different for some.

But the important thing is that if you are doing Push Basic Hitting as you move to fuller shots you cant use that sort of push basic type takeaway, linear, elbow sawing or whatever. Its ok for short shots if that is what you are doing but not for longer shots. That was news to me a little while back.

I have met a quite a few TGM'ers that fall into this category as well. That's what really appealed to me about Lynn and Ted. I had a GSED as my instructor in college and he pretty much taught everybody to swing. I really didn't know what exactly hitting was at the time, but the idea of using your right arm and right side made sense to me. And having a choice between the right and the left made even more sense to me.

Now having instructors that were more than willing to teach both and go with what worked best for you is what I was looking for.

I soon realized I could hit the ball further with hitting on a consistent basis than I could swinging, despite being told that wasn't the case. I think the big thing that got me was a couple of months ago when I looked at Quiros' swing, a guy that generates about 125-130 mph of driver clubhead speed, saw a shorter backswing, a right forearm on plane at impact, an an angled hinge and that screamed to me that he was a hitter. The longest guy on Tour is a hitter, something I was told couldn't happen by most people not named Yoda or Ted.




3JACK

Wait a minute, Ive been thinking about this some. If you employ Standard Wrist Action your Right Elbow will be in a different place than it would be for Single Wrist Action. Meaning that Swingers and Hitters have a different Right Elbow position going back (as they do going down) despite the similarities in the RFT, fanning and bending motion.

We need Yoda to answer this one maybe.

+1

The rotation (or not) of pp#3 doesn't just happen.

X you are going about it the best way, starting in Basic Motion and you are asking the best questions, truly. The answers are more complicated than they should seem to be but its worthy of study.

If you dont have the book please buy it, you'll need it to fully understand all of this. The Minor Basic Strokes are defined by arm motions. The Major Basic Strokes are defined by Right Elbow Position. So for a Hitter using Push Basic his
Minor and Major Basic Strokes will have different Right Arm Motions. As if you used your karate thing (right arm Push) for short shots (its one way anyways, not the only way for a Hitter) and a sort of side arm throwing motion for the longer shots with the elbow leading. One purely inline, linear thrust the other more radial, approaching a swingers right elbow position.

In Basic Motion the Hitter and Swingers methods may seem like total polar opposites. This distinction lessens as you move towards longer and longer shots. The Punch Elbow of the Hitter can, for some, get darn close to a Pitch Elbow for instance. Push Basic is a fine method for short shots but underpowered for longer shots where we need a more dynamic throwing motion with the right arm.

Check out Lynn here in this video and the one armed demonstration he makes on what the right arms motion is in Total Motion. Around the 40 second mark or so. Now he wasnt expecting us to look at that microscopicly and I bet if you slowed down the film, his actual swing would show his right elbow to be leading a bit more but I sure wish I noticed that elbow position and arm motion when I was mistakenly trying to use a linear right arm Push in Total Motion.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p....-Hitting.html

OB thanks for your replies.i know i'm still in basic motion but its good to learn the whole picture for future reference.at the moment i'm crawling and with time ill be walking then soon ill be running.this is the same process ni matter what you learn and this is fact.

ill def purchase the bible next week but i hear its very technical and takes time to figure out but ill get it for sure

And there was I blaming your sudden excursion into literacy on the Black Stuff.:occasion:

You stick to the flog and leave the technical stuff to us proper wed rine drinkers.:oops: Whoops,there I go again.:confused1

One piece at a time, like the journey you describe above and it will open up for you. You'll love it in the end. A book or riddles, like golf itself. We always knew the truth would be abstract didnt we? Its a damnable game afterall, designed by the devil and played by crazies.

Please explain further.
Thanks.

In a 'true' swing the rotation can just happen, thanks to CF and the throw out motion of the pivot. The motion needs to be on plane, and in rhythm.

Most of the time, all but the truest of swingers need to have an action to start or cause the release, to allow it to happen.

Automatic release types can work nicely as well, although I personally find that an automatic release and a 'true' swing at the least have different feels and/or intentions (automatic release for me is a focus on aiming point, vs giving up control to CF in a true swing).

All of that said, you will be in far better shape if you learn to feel the rotation of #3 by doing it actively at first. For many, quite literally as hard as you can rotate it. Try to hook the crap out of it with the left wrist.

you will

Then you can learn the rhythm. The left wrist staying VERTICLE to the ground - which prevents you from having a swivel as hinge action, and no chance of consistent results.

Per 4-D-0 the release motions refers to the release of Accumulators #2 (the left wrist uncocking) and #3 (the roll where the club closes and eventually catches up with the hands).

In a swinging stroke the release is sequential. Uncocking first and then the roll. The uncocking is a vertical movement (remember that left wrist should be flat and vertical at all times) and right hand pp#3 pressure must therefore be vertical to support the uncocking first. But the roll which appears thereafter is horizontal and therefore pp#3 orientation must change. It will not be horizontal, but down and out at impact. This pp#3 rotation will basically happen by itself as long as the right hand doesn't go outside it's mandate, which is basically providing structural support that enables the pivot to drive the club through.

In a hitting stroke you put your right hand in the driving seat. You can't do a vertical uncocking first and then start the rolling - and get away with it. You want PP #3 to do the same thing throughout the downstroke. A steady on-plane thrust. And that can only happen with a pp#3 that is on-plane at all times.

In other words: No pp#3 rotation for hitters but pp#3 rotation for swingers. The difference is very easy felt at the top as soon as there is a hint of loading action. And disaster waits if you don't get the loading correct.

What I meant by "rotation (or not) of pp#3 doesn't just happen" was that different alignments are required for hitting and swinging. It is described in 7-3. But I don't understand that chapter properly. So if someone would care to explain it would be nice.