Gregg Mchatton no up in the Backswing
 

In the video (Gregg Mchatton no up in the backswing in YOUTUBE), Gregg talks about no up in the backswing, seems to contradict but TGM. Also mention about the #3 pp in the video. Seems contracdict with TGM on the right forearm pick up. Any comments?

Is Gregg swinging on the elbow plane?

Greg's Hands do go Back, In and Up as they must to be plane compliant. The fore mentioned Up of Three Dimensional Startup , Backswing is not the same "up" Mr Mchatton is referring to I dont believe. The "up" he is referring to is the up of heavy lifting , something normally done by those who employ a Shoulder Turn Takeaway or Left Side push away.

When the Left Arm and not the Right is in charge of taking the club Back, In and Up it gets to a point during the backswing at which it is poorly positioned to lift any more , which requires tremendous help from rest of the body. Better to just take it back with the Right Forearm which can get the job done with ease.

Greg employs a Swing Back with a Lagging Takeaway and tosses the club Back , In and Up. The last bit of club travel is momentum alone as opposed to muscular effort or lifting. A nice way to do things, it also goes really well with Float Loading on the way down.

Do an experiment where you try to take the club to Top with just your left arm attached to the club and see how hard it is.....It'll probably take some lifting. Most guys who struggle with the game lift it to Top or End and then start down with the Hands or Arms instead of their Pivot. Normally requiring a lot of Pivot Motion to get all the lifting going. Greg wants you to "grease" the last bit of the backswing and Startdown. You could call this Pivot Lag I believe. By not lifting you're able to calm your PIvot down some too. No more over turning on the backswing.

Gregg may be reflecting Hogan's warning in Lesson 3 where he says "you are heading for disaster if you thrust your arms UP above the plane so that they would shatter the pane of glass"

Having been a student of Greg I know he gets the club deep. When I saw him I was more upright and I just couldn't get it deep enough for him. We used a plane board which was set up on a TSP but it felt so...... flat. He loves to talk about "throw out"
It is big with him. He is big into Hogan. So if you have a flatter back swing and you haven't thought about taking the club up on the downswing you are more likely thinking about throwing out rather than down. I have always seen the golf swing as up and down. The baseball swing is more on a horizontal plane and I struggle with seeing and feeling the golf swing on an inclined plane.

It seems like the left arm (deltoids) can achieve any position at the top until the right arm attaches which weighs (flattens path) it down...then, it seems like you need EA to stretch back up to TSP?? Does EA have a lesser role to a float loader like Gregg? Seems like he is not concerned with TSP and would likely not try to sacrifice momentum with overly active EA on the backswing (which is probably as harmful as braking action on the downswing for a float loader)? Is Greg sacrificing potential energy by not getting to TSP (he doesn't seem as limited to elbow plane as Allen Doyle, but he's more limited than TAIII from what I can tell), or is he just replacing it with additionally obtained "accumulated" energy (i.e. in acc #1 and #2) gained in his "float"?

Hey miji

You might be stronger than me with the left arm. When Im hitting balls with just it attached I have to lift a bit. Great question about EA. Does anyone familiar with Gregs videos or lessons know if he talks about EA?

My apologies for the digression but this is something Ive been wondering about for a while. I really like his motion just wondering about EA and if or when he dials it up.

EA occurs automatically when applying the RFT. GM doesn't use the RFT (GM = LCT) and since he uses the Elbow Plane, then .......

LCT = Lagging Clubhead Takeaway?

D, you saying LCT cant be done with the Right Forearm Takeaway (RFT)? I do it. But I have to go easy on the EA from adjusted in Startup then dial it up. I've got it turned on by the time my hands are about over my right thigh...by then Ive got my Impact Hands back too as a result of the EA. Heavy EA at Adjusted can snap the Hands into their Impact Alignments which if in so doing moves the clubhead backwards would be Hogans chipping method according Homer, I believe. The so called EA takeaway.

But I dont know if GM does EA at all. OMG!

RFT = right forearm takeaway

LCT = ??

left something takeaway, not sure what though, hope its not too obvious :-) thanks

One of the many cool side benefits of LBG.
 

We all need context for definition and by mentioning other instructors like Greg McHatton, I get a new "context" and potentially helpful insights in a different "language," which may be simpler for me to understand.

Happy New Year!

ICT

Well, Greg uses a Lagging Clubhead Take-away LCT. He "Swings" the Club to the Top. "There is no Up in the Backswing" he said. So I assume that he doesn't "push" the Club to the Top as the Right Forearm Takeaway has you do.

Uh - oh. The Right Forearm Take-away (RFT) causes Extensor Action (EA) by engaging the Right Triceps Muscle during the Backstroke. With The Right Forearm Take-away, there is no need for additional EA.

The Right Forearm Take-Away is A Procedure which takes the Club, Hands, Arms and Shoulders, from "Address to the Top of the backstroke". ((It's not just for the the Takeaway interval.)) :doh:

It's the TGM preferred procedure because it engages the "Magic of the Right Forearm" so that the Right Wrist can remain Level while the Left Wrist Cocks. It's the only way to do so. TGM secret #23. Pass it on.

Couple of things:

Doesnt the Right Forearm Takeaway ...pull the club......hence the lagging condition of the clubhead during the lagging takeaway?

Also isnt EA a separate and distinct force applied to the Left Arm and Club, a non accelerating force given thats its along the line of the left arm. A stretching out of the left arm and club in line. Sorta like an artificial CF if you will. As such cant the right forearm stretch the left arm at the #1 or the the left arm and club at the #3 (less common) and accelerate the club during RFT as two distinct actions?

Doesn't the Right Forearm Takeaway ...pull the club......hence the lagging condition of the clubhead during the lagging takeaway?

Section 4/5 – Backstroke ensures that the Right Forearm Takeaway is a Pushing Action. Note also that #18 is Top. Start Up comes before Takeaway.
14. Extensor Action
15. Start Up – Line
16. Start Up – L/R Wrist Conditions
17. Right Forearm Takeaway


Also isn't EA a separate and distinct force applied to the Left Arm and Club, a non accelerating force given that its along the line of the left arm. A stretching out of the left arm and club in line. Sorta like an artificial CF if you will. As such can't the right forearm stretch the left arm at the #1 or the the left arm and club at the #3 (less common) and accelerate the club during RFT as two distinct actions?

Yes. EA is the application of Force using Right Triceps muscle to Stretch the Left Arm. Extensor Force can be applied in different ways. With the Right Forearm Takeaway, the two middle fingers of the Right Hand simultaneously grip the Shaft and squeeze pressure on the Left Thumb.

Stretching the Left Arm through the #3 PP or tightly gripping the shaft with the #3 PP while using Extensor Force are Specialty Procedures.

Extensor Action: a great Homer Kelley Invention. One thing that's very clear, is that once you know, understand and use Extensor Force, you CAN'T Swing a Club any other way again. It would be like closing a bi-fold door without a track.

I'd like the court to recognize that the honourable D, has added some wordage that doesnt exist within my 6th edition of the book.

Please, strike from the record everything after "Backstroke"...... commencing with "ensure that the ..." This is a horrible mis representation of Homers actual text . I can only assume for his own benefit, to make a point. Shame. The court can only wonder where else this sort of thing has happened in the past!

I suggest a total audit of all Daryls previous posts and I elect Mike O. and Bucket as co auditors.

Let it be so.


D, how can the right arm push on the way back when its on the front of the club? Seems like a pull to me.

Is it possible that both answers (push and pull) are reasonable? It seems as if the resultant below plane force of the right arm seeking to remain straight is partially based on the position of r/h attachment. A weaker (right index finger knuckle on top of shaft) right hand attachment seems to create a clear "push" or longitudinal stretching of left arm (through pp#1)and/or entire primary lever (through pp#1+3). A stronger right hand seems to both stretch "push" (longitudinally)and "pull" (laterally). Is this, perhaps, the "extensor action takeaway" (10-19-0) referred to in TGM as it applies to lag loading? TGM suggests that a swinger can lag load with EA takeaway "and/or" the "bending right wrist". Float loading (hit or swing) probably still conforms to these guidelines given that there is a blending of moves which combines assembly and lag loading (and release for that matter)....which really all starts at takeaway. The float loader who intends to HIT will need to blend in some EA for structure....but I would think he would be wary of establishing the "pushing" forces of EA because...its difficult to blend in a "pre assembled" lever. I would tend to think that OB Left is on to something with the "pulling" forces of EA being phased in early as he drags the club with his right hand (if I understood this correctly). But I think they inevitably become pushing EA forces as "we hold the plane up" at the top). I wonder if Gregg's top position dictates a "hitting" action. My gut tells me that a float loader who hits still needs to rely on a significant degree of CF and knows that spinning hips can offset structural deficiencies that remain from his "lazy" move leading up to impact.

You're watchful and tough, however I wasn't "Quoting". I was "explaining".

"D, how can the right arm push on the way back when its on the front of the club? Seems like a pull to me."

When I try to Straighten my Right Arm with Triceps muscle, I call it "Push".

The "L" Word
 

I'll add a third perspective: Lift . . .

As Daryl has stated, when the right triceps is active, it pushes and gives width to the Stroke. As O.B. has stated, this Extensor Action pulls on the left arm, stretching it and likewise providing structure to the Stroke.

But, this pushing/pulling Action (Non-Accelerating Thrust / 6-C-0 #2) does not move the Left Arm. For that to happen, the right arm and its right elbow action (bending and straightening) must lift (and lower) the left (7-3). This is an On Plane Action, of course, but it is nevertheless a lift.

Otherwise, even when structured, the left arm and club (Primary Lever Assembly) will be simply drug around the body (the "disruptive Shoulder Turn Takeaway" / 10-6-B). Thus, it will be hopelessly Under Plane and therefore misaligned in relation to the Baseline of the Plane and the ball that rests upon it.

This mistake can be, indeed must be, corrected by realigning at the Top, as happens in the Compensated Strokes of even fine players. But, why bother with all that when a simple solution is available? Namely, use an On Plane (Zone 3), Right Forearm Pickup (Zone 2) in conjunction with a perfect Pivot (Zone 1).

:golfcart2:

Please extend comment to include;

7-10- ... correct Rhythm in both directions. ....

Thanks

The Bear

My efforts at keeping the left wrist flat and extensor action combined with my intensity always made it difficult to swing without excessive tension. That as a result kept me from experiencing "throw out". I ended up with a corrupted CF swinging procedure with hitting and steering elements. Therefore I had trouble releasing and getting to a full finish. Greg believes the arms just hang and if he lifts your arms up at address and it pulls your thorax and head up he feels you have to much tension. I think that is a good concept. However extensor action is mentioned so often it is essential to a good procedure. For me I have to guard against to much EA and rigidity. Also I feel that although other thoughts and ideas can be helpful it is important to commit to one set of ideas for success. I am guilty of tinkering with my swing to much. So for me I am committed to the "literalists" because I feel that will work best for me. So I am trying to eliminate everything I can. There is a time to get off the forum's, stop looking at the videos, give up on the golf publications close your mind. For this to work you have to have chosen the right procedures. I think I am on the right track

that's cool, i was thinking that - exposure to this excellent forum may finally be getting me somewhere towards TGM thinking :-) can't wait to get back out with the clubs when the weather lets up

Freedom Within Structure
 

It is true that Extensor Action can be exaggerated into an immobilizing fault. However, that does not obviate its purpose; namely, to provide a "structural rigidity" that is a strong deterrent to collapse under the stresses created by a powerful golf stroke, especially at the Top and through Impact.

To achieve maximum Zone 2 Power, the Arms (and with them the Club) must swing freely from the Shoulders (and not be bound to and drug around by them). Also, the Wrists must remain flexible to perform their Release functions (Uncock and Roll). However, that does not mean that the Power Package Structure (which these Components and their Loading collectively comprise) should be "loose" or, worse yet, "flimsy". Or that the Hands should be robbed of the firm Grip necessary to control Clubface alignments.

Just as there are good and bad cholesterols, so are there good and bad tensions in the Golf Stroke. Differentiating the two distills the champion.

:salut:

It has never been made clear to me which tricept muscle('s) are active for EA.

Just as bicept curles can be performed pronate or supinate so and use DIFFERENT bicept muscle, A tricept push down can be done pronate or supinate and use DIFFERENT tricept muscle. One way creates no control but great tension the other creates "structure" and frees the wrists and power package from tension. Which does what and how is EA properly applied. This requires more description than "stretching" . HOW not WHAT.? I believe this is KEY.

The Bear again.

Some Things I Leave to God
 

Uh . . .

How about . . .

Stretch the left arm in the direction it is pointing?

That's what should be done, and it is what I do.

Is there a specific right triceps muscle that does this? If so, please spare me . . .

I don't want to know!

:laughing9

Lynn, how, if at all, does the amount of EA vary with club?
 

I would guess longer clubs need more EA, which could mean I am completely wrong.

Hey Bear. If we could take your mind for detail and share it with my "big-picture" perspectives, we could be insightful and entertaining most of the time. :)

ICT

You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Loves You
 

The Power Package (with its Extensor Action) is indifferent to the Club inserted into its Clamps.

:golfcart2:

I just saw this answer.

Pardon me, I did not think there were any stupid questions. I was wrong. I will print this answer and paste it into the front cover of my book. This was an honest question. I will not say more.

hb

Forum Fun
 

Bear,

I answered your question to the best of my ability and, yes, with a bit of humor. No 'smack' intended; just fun.

:laughing9

If you want to parse the triceps muscles, fly at it, and we'll let the thread go as it may.

No big deal.

:salut:

Oh my this strikes right to the heart of what I have learned from Lynn and Ted. I nominate this for immediate inclusion in the best of Lynn Blake.

Wow. I had my tensions backwards (don't wanna get into it) I could shoot in the sixties like that...... But now I am forever changed. I no longer play unless it's warmer than 70 degrees. But seriously now folks. ........ For those who have ears ....... Let them listen

I copied Lynn's text into my WORD doc.
 

It is on page 123. :) When I run out of things to copy, I'll start asking short questions!
:hello:

ICT

The hands are educated clamps.
 

The Power package has the same amount of EA for every club. Now, for a friendly question that I can imagine not being answered here or in print, anywhere.

My impression is that the amount of EA employed by Mr. Doyle, and McHatton etc., is less in theory than that employed by Mr. Blake. I mean to say that there is a theoretical, bio-mechanical reason why the two groups see EA in a different amount, if they do indeed see the amount of EA differently.

I'm also willing to suggest that both (or all 27) views of EA can prove their case and would simply say that the amount of EA is an individual's decision.

And I'm willing to be ignored on this completely. :)

ICT

Im listening as always....City......great question in regard to Mr Doyle and McHatton. Does pure CF, True Swinging forfeit EA? I'd say no , but I dont know what those TGM greats teach. I admire them both profoundly whatever the answer.

Again , great question. For a flyers fan.

The McHatton Doyle west coast part of the TGM tree certainly believes in extensor action. Yoda's post #21 stating that the arms "must swing freely from the shoulders" would please Greg a lot. Greg asks his students to let the arms hang freely at address. Then he grabs your hands and lifts them up. If your head and thorax come up he points out that your arms were not hanging freely. If you argue he will ask "weren't you looking at the ground at address, then where are you looking now"?. With relaxed arms the instructor lifting them should not cause you to come up. Sometimes students don't "get it". As much as Lynn stresses MacDonald's exercises their importance it took me awhile to "get it". It is very difficult to express golf instruction in english words that correctly transmit meaning. That is why we have all of these discussion day after day, year after year with each of us looking for an "a ha" moment. Then we hope to take these words, carry them to the range and have another "a ha" moment. Then more importantly find that same feeling out on the course. Perhaps relaxed arm,s ie power package feels "heavy", "hanging".

I think it is easier for me to isolate the tricep, apply EA to stretch the left arm, and maintain the arms "swinging freely" with the right hand more on top of the shaft. I would also agree that in this position, once isolated, the tricep muscle motion feels similar to a pure tricep extension excercise which makes sense since the hands are normally positioned on top of the load and pushing down at an angle to accomplish this excercise. However, as the r/h rotates to the stronger position on the side of the shaft and I try to stretch the left arm, the tricep does not feel as if it is isolated any longer (while excercising we normally keep our "elbows in" in order to isolate the tricep muscle). In fact, as I rotate to a stronger r/h position I can't help but engage the chest and shoulders (makes sense to me as applying force from BOTH the top and side to PP#1 would seem to closely resemble a "decline" bench press-which is not intended to isolate the tricep). Does this really matter? Probably for some golfers it does and others it does not since there might still be room for the arms to swing freely even with the three slightly contracted muscle groups. If McHatton is hitting, he must eventually dial in some EA. I'd be interested to know if he has ever associated any particular grip style with achieving his arms hanging freely.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.

1. CF has nothing to do with EA.
2. Shoulder Turn Takeaway does not mix with EA.
3. EA functions to create and Maintain the Flying Wedge Alignments from Start-up to Full Extension (Including Magic of the Right Forearm).

Ok Daryl, that's very helpful.
 

So, it's a mistake on my part to suggest that the TGM West Coast office would lessen EA to get there syrupy smooth backswing. Now, you'll recognize, I hope, my lack of worry over asking dumb questions.

We all understand EA is crucial and that EA does not vary with the club. :)

So let me see if I can follow with a worthwhile observation/question or two in this neighborhood.

RFT and Tracing the Base-line of the Plane are important. Don't they necessitate the extension of both Flying Wedges? (Sort of rhetorical, here)

If both Flying Wedges are firmly extended, doesn't that allow the wrists to be "soft?" And doesn't that mean that the EA is already "baked-in" to the Flying Wedges? (Isn't that where Mr. Hogan most likely got that "both arms banded" feeling, which we don't really do?)

My goal is to be on Plane and swing with maximum LAG in a repeatable fashion. I think EA is crucial as is LAG. I'm just wondering how they all fit together.

Peace and Love until the next Flyers game! I'm really stuck on Michael Vick, too. Is he now a redemptive figure or just a careful and cynical PR job? :scratch:

I love my dogs.

ICT

Thanks OB. I take it from your question that pure CF is the West Coast goal? They are on the Swinging side of the universe like the Greek Orthodox Church was into the Holy Spirit proceeding from BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON as opposed to the Roman Catholic view which was more from the FATHER AND LESS FROM THE SON?

I have too much time on my hands during break. Sorry.

ICT

EAsy there Einstein, easy.......

I said I thought you could True Swing with EA. Im merely asking if Mr Doyle and Mr McHatton employ it, teach it? I dont know.

From my personal experimentation .........in the O.B. Lab and think tank center at the local golf dome ....I personally have to dial EA down when going full monty on the CF swing with Float Loading. Not off but down. Now that might just be me given my limitations and lack of training with that type of swing. I do think I could learn how to employ EA and let the Right Elbow cock the left wrist on the way down......gonna do some more work on that one........Id put your helmets on if you're within shankable reach of my experiments but I wanna learn that move. Maybe Ill get Yoda to show me that one when next we meet.


D, when you say "CF has nothing to do with EA"? Isnt EA artificial CF? Or when you say CF do you mean "clubhead force"? You know like in 2-C.

Regards
The Riddler

City as an aside , and I do recognize how averse you are to segues so I apologize in advance.....

Given you studies into "swinging the hands" vs "swinging the clubhead" would you say that Mr McHatton and maybe even Mr Hogan (check out the oh so beautiful little pitch shots he's hitting in the Hogan in Mexico the Magical Swing of Ben Hogan video) are Swinging the Clubhead during their languid Lagging Takeaway motions?

I have been goofing with "swinging the clubhead" on the backswing and "swinging the Hands" on the way down......... something to be said for it Ill tell ya.

I swing the clubhead Back and Down for a lot of pitch shots , high soft shots , it goes nicely with cut shots , bumping the flange under the ball etc kind of an up near low point spanking of the ground under the ball with the bounce exposed. But I do go back and forth while hitting wedge shots between swinging the head and the hands on the way down......two different ball flights, compressions.

Id never swing the clubhead on the way down with a driver say but on the way back? Maybe... Whats the difference between a Lagging TAkeaway and Swinging the clubhead anyways? Its purely experimental right now but this seems like an appropriate venue to discuss this given Mr McHattons silky smooth flowing motion. I dunno what he does, not saying he does swing the head.

I meant to say that "CF has nothing to do with EA". :)

Your difficulty using EA with Float Loading because of its subsequent disruption of CF is not a CF problem. Its because EA freezes the Right Wrist while Float Loading cocks both Wrists (Left and Right) during the Downstroke when the Right Elbow is Cocked at or before "Top". So, your frozen right wrist was the culprit.

So, we can see that there are two procedures for Lag Loading during the Downstroke. One is when both Wrists are Cocked (McHatton) and the other is when the Right Elbow and Left Wrist are Cocked while the Right Wrist remains Level. But neither one uses EA.

I probably don't belong in this discussion, but I have some experience with a lagging takeway from adjusted address - it's just like dragging the dry pitbull /wet mop the wrong way - if that's a comment worth mentioning?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejgoFG_iIyA