Hello 0.B. Thanks for you insight. On the putting side
I seem to remember V.J. talking about the same thing.
For long shots, my concern has been the hinge (using a
hinge device, as suggested by Yoda) rotating around with
the left shoulder instead of around the hinge pin. If I
try to maintain the hinge on the left shoulder, this appears
to be what is happening. When Yoda demonstrates, his wooden
hinge device, he does not move the whole device around, outward, on the back swing. The device stays in the same spot and the club portion rotates around the hinge pin. I have been trying to use
the hinge so that I can get exact tracing and a single action
wrist action on the back stroke. I would certainly appreciate
your thoughts. Donn
Hey Donn. I know you know all this stuff but for the benefit of those who havent had a lesson with lynn....
The machine of 1-L is a model . A stripped down , simplified for illustrative purposes model that reveals all of the 1-Ls, the basic geometry if you will and the Hinge Actions. Its brilliant but it is simplified when compared to the human body. The machine does not have shoulders , the hinge pin at the end of the primary lever, the centre of the radius, is fixed at the post (spine). The human body is obviously more complex . It has multiple levers , multiple centres, some of which are , often , in motion. That is to say the left shoulder, unless its zeroed moves.
Now that said you could employ a procedure which is similar to the machines. A procedure where (normally for short but exacting shots) you zeroed out the pivot (the left shoulder) and moved the primary lever about a fixed centre . A Pull Minor Basic Stroke say. Great procedure. Simple geometrically , mechanically. But for longer , power shots the left shoulder must move . Aka pivot strokes.
A lot of guys get Hands to Pivot wrong . Its very easy to do. Hands to pivot does not mean that the hands move before the pivot does for instance. Nor does it mean that the pivot is zeroed in Startup. Ideally the body and the arms move in a co-ordinated but independent manner. The legs and arms move in a different direction than the body turns! This is why Lynn doesnt like the hanky under the arm pit drill. It ties the arms to the pivot and restricts independent motion. Lynn teaches a ground/up startup followed by a ground / up start down. Something he told me Hogan described in Power Golf if not in 5 lessons. One reason our host has a preference for Power Golf I believe.
Lynn teaches a feet , knees, hips, shoulders , arms , hands , club startup. Sort of like dancing or walking to be more precise. He teaches lag and drag in startup (both from adjusted and from impact fix interestingly, who knew?) He loves the photos of Sneads cleared right hip, Nelson's lagging clubhead takeaway. Hogan of course oozes ground / up , lag and drag.... in both directions . Back and then through.
To pull this off the pivot must not be killed in startup. The hips are not held still despite how common an intention this may be , currently. The pivot turns and the arms go ...up on the backstroke. See Divergent vectors 2-N-1.. the clubheads orbit is the product of two divergent forces . One outward , one downward (on the downswing but imagine your swinging the club up when thinking about the backswing) The forces balance each other out. The forces of the independent body and arm motion balance out with the clubheads path , orbit resulting. The body's and the arm's motion is therefore said to be "independent but co-ordinated."
So hard to describe in words but you should experience its feel when introduced into your swing! See also McDonald exercises # 5, 10 and 11. This IMO is one reason why Lynn loves those exercises. One exercise is worth a thousand words.
The pivot can (if you so choose ) move the club for its first few inches or so in Startup . I do this. From adjusted . For me it feels like my right hip initiates the whole sequence. As if the right hip powers the clubs first few inches and powers my "startup swivel" . The body (zone 1) provides the initial MOMENTUM which gets picked up and added to in a chain reaction that ripples through all the zones. Its a swing away with a gradually building momentum as the arms and hands (zones 2 and 3) sense and then add to this initial motion. But with different directions or vectors to motion (of zones 1 and 2) . There used to be a video here where John Riegger illustrated his preferred startup from fix , how his pivot turns from a Fix position in Startup and his club goes back a few feet with it. I cant seem to find it any more but it was really interesting. Very McDonald drill #5 to my eye anyways.
Ive got a home made video where Lynn discusses this startup. Let me see if he'll let me put it up on this board. Its not material that is very well known or understood. It takes a lot of words to explain and even then its easily dismissed or over looked. It is however the single most important thing that Lynn has given to my game. What is it? Its ground up , lag and drag in both directions with independent body and arm/leg motion. With an early swing away momentum powering the "startup swivel". Its "motion! " . Simple , natural motion . Alignments (Homer) in motion ( as taught by Blake, McDonald , Melhourne and Homer 12-5 for instance). Homers love affair with Lag and Drag takes on new meaning when, if you are able to introduce it very early in the swing , in Startup. Well IMO anyways.
The startup is not an arm thing alone or a body thing alone. Its a co-ordinated bit of both , each doing its own thing, going its own way. While the #3 pp traces. The pivot moves about its centre , a point between the shoulders the Primary Lever (the left arm and club) moves about its centre the Left Shoulder.
P.S. Exercise #10 and 11 are drills , backswing drills which show the pivots (Zone 1's) contribution to the clubheads orbit on the backswing . It is not suggesting that the clubheads orbit on the backswing is solely a product of a turning pivot. All the zones get involved early ..... Lynn , my video seems to suggest , personally has zone 1 and 2 doing their own things immediately in startup. I have the body going before the arms ... To each his own.
Last edited by O.B.Left : 02-19-2013 at 12:32 PM.
Reason: clarity , stupidity and then an attempt at clarity again.
Excellent post O.B. Sure helps my understanding of the
Drills. Sure hope that you can get your video on the Website.
Yoda understands something special about the movements.
I suspect that the reason is, the more centered pivot, but
not sure. With the drills, I see the right hip going more
back than around, kind of like the right hip set out of the
way. With this, I can still see a delayed hip turn, rather
than Standard hip turn. Right forearm take away in a sense.
Like you, most likely, I am used to Golf Machine terms and
will need to adjust to added language. Maybe as time progresses
more Drill instruction will relate to Golfing Machine terms,
but then, I guess that terms will be a problem for the
general golfer. The drills sure work for me,and others that I see,
but I am not quite sure why. In time the fog will lift.
Thanks, Donn
Excellent post O.B. Sure helps my understanding of the
Drills. Sure hope that you can get your video on the Website.
Yoda understands something special about the movements.
I suspect that the reason is, the more centered pivot, but
not sure. With the drills, I see the right hip going more
back than around, kind of like the right hip set out of the
way. With this, I can still see a delayed hip turn, rather
than Standard hip turn. Right forearm take away in a sense.
Like you, most likely, I am used to Golf Machine terms and
will need to adjust to added language. Maybe as time progresses
more Drill instruction will relate to Golfing Machine terms,
but then, I guess that terms will be a problem for the
general golfer. The drills sure work for me,and others that I see,
but I am not quite sure why. In time the fog will lift.
Thanks, Donn
The exercises are all about motion. Lynn teaches Homers Alignments of course , but in motion. Alignments and motion work together. The motion can produce nice dynamic alignments , for instance! You cant look like Hogan by merely copping his positions. You get there , to the extent possible , by emulating his motion IMO. The component variations with their alignments are made into a whole by motion. "A one piece total motion" . As opposed to a cobbled together collection of pieces, manipulations or positions.
The early guys (McDonald , Melhourne etc ) seemed to do a better job of teaching motion. With Lynn I found it , motion, to be very free flowing , unbridled and powerful. He'd whisper "give up control to gain control " (George Knudson) as I swung. Took me hours to get it right , to let go. Its adoption was accompanied by a better "swoosh" sound down near the ball. Did you ever notice how Phil has a nice "swoosh"? Not too many compliment him on his mechanics etc but he's got a great motion. You can hear it. You dont get that sound by hanging on to anything. Angles or positions.
You still have component options , Hip Action as you mention. I remember Lynn talking about how McDonald just got a lot of things right. Right forearm takeaway for instance, if memory serves. I personally think Lynn would say that McDonald's and Homer's books dove tail quite nicely. Better than most!
O.B. Another excellent Post. At the Range, I felt it today.
Started from the feet, I felt the lag/drag on back stroke.
Before I had issues with back stroke, UP, Back, and In and
felt that a drag was more down (on the ground)was an oxymoron with the UP. Now I sense the UP with the lag/drag. A more tracing
motion than before (not with the clubhead on the ground). Please let me know if you feel that the new take away is correct.
Donn
O.B. Another excellent Post. At the Range, I felt it today.
Started from the feet, I felt the lag/drag on back stroke.
Before I had issues with back stroke, UP, Back, and In and
felt that a drag was more down (on the ground)was an oxymoron with the UP. Now I sense the UP with the lag/drag. A more tracing
motion than before (not with the clubhead on the ground). Please let me know if you feel that the new take away is correct.
Donn
Sounds right to me.
You no doubt have done the continuous swinging drill with Lynn. The Wild Bill Mehlhourn drill where you brush the ground in BOTH directions and walk forward ..... first in tall grass then on turf then while stroking a line of golf balls.
The momentum provided to your backstroke when you reverse your direction from what would normally be finish is delightful, magical even. It settles into being Pivot motivated. As it would when scything grass. In contrast to the muscles and methods we normally use in startup which can be counter productive (dead pivot , arms outracing the body , off plane etc) The lagging takeaway Lynn teaches, from my experience , provides early swinging momentum from startup that approaches the same feel as the Mehlhourn drills free ride, if you will. So to answer your question , I'd say do McDonald Exercise #5 and then take to the rough for some Mehlhourne drills .... once acclimated compare that floating back feeling it enhances , highlights to your Lagging Takeaway procedure. The more the latter is like the former the better you're getting at it, IMO. You cant get all the way there ... but you can try. Lag and drag in both directions .... hence the brush in both directions. Lynn put an impact bag behind my club in Startup so Id whack it with a lagging clubhead ..... address hands, bent right/flat left . But I start from Adjusted , mid body hands for longer shots.
One thing about the Mehlhourn drill ... if you do one for a few minutes without a ball, the continuous motion seems to remove unwanted , extraneous motion . Your focus turns to the clubhead path. It seems to remove the non essential motion we cook up with our logic. You wont tend to over spin your pivot for instance . You wont tend to hang onto angles. You will tend to let your arms pass your body , you will tend to Finish Swivel. You're swinging , lagging and dragging in both directions with the PIvot anticipating , preparing and initiating the change in direction..... naturally. Like we do when chopping wood to use a Bob McDonald image.
When Lynn first showed me the McDonald exercises I didnt like them very much or get what they were all about. I couldnt wait for the marching to stop frankly. I would have preferred to have been hitting balls and looking at film of my swing... I couldnt have more astounded when I finally got the message.
Lynn knew that words alone couldnt fix what I had ingrained over decades of golf . I needed motion retraining. It took hours as I recall to gain some ground that first day. Even then I was far from finished, the lessons continued for several years actually and it wasnt until a month or so after the last lesson that they clicked in full strength. Looking back on it he broke me like you would a wild horse. The biggest gains were made at the end of the day , after he'd exhausted me. My "head" got in the way of the retraining. He got me outa my head , like an acting coach would an "over thinking it" actor.
The darn swing just isnt what we tend to think it is. I was over turning , over lifting etc. All this extra stuff. Weirdest thing is my swing now looks way better than it used to . Without any thought to what I looked like during the motion training , I ended up with the look I wanted. Weird aint it?
Hybrid Mode
