Bob,
I'm not saying this is necessarily the "proper" way to swing.
But
A) it touches on the issues of how these particular joint motions create patterns through the other joints.
B) secondly, the control and flow should be from the contact point back through the body- that ties in with the "intention", anotherwords if kicking a soccer ball then it would be the motion of the foot / lower leg that would create the other joint motions.
C)So I wanted to have you make that "exagerated" movement to see the principles at work. So in that context, at halfway back you need to twist your forearms to the opposite extreme by the time you get to the top. From there as you think of taking the hands down plane- they have only one way to move- untwist- until halfway down the again move the other way to impact- from the top- if you just make the motion or sense the force- I think it should pretty much happen- certainly on the downswing your letting that happen- not trying to make it happen- you've already set it up.
Again, with your hands out in front of you- palms facing- wrists vertical to the ground. Your saying that you turn the left one palm down and the right palm up- and that's your motion to the top of the forearms. Then on the downswing- they move back to vertical from release to impact. Essentially, your starting at vertical, turning, then returning to vertical. Notice the difference in potential power when you do what I'm suggesting you try to see the patterns of joint motions.
Start at vertical, turn (1/2 way back- left forearm pronated, and right forearm supinated), then from halfway back- to the top your completely rotating your left forearm to supination and the right forearm to pronation, much different than you're currently doing. Now, here's the big potential difference, in this "exagerated" movement besides created the proper body movements as a result of the left forearm pronating and the right forearm supinating on the first half of the downswing, you've got this whole extra power source added to the handspeed- that left forearm pronation and right forearm supination is adding tremendous speed to the clubhead in addition to your handspeed.
We are in the LAB- so in this context I'm just throwing some ideas out. So, back to your question what are you missing? Yes, step two and three. But remember I'm saying at this stage and this context play around with the concept - And see if you can that this extreme forearm rotations A) create some of the corresponding body movements that I described above and B) did you acquire more distance as a result of the added clubhead speed. Then report back (anyone) and see what kind of feedback you have.
I hit balls on the range today using the procedure set out by Mike O. in his posts #29 and #31. I did this with my pitching wedge after first hitting about 20 balls with my regular Swinging procedure. I made about 15 - 20 rehearsal swings to get the sequence down. There is no mirror on the range for me to "see" what was happening, so all I concerned myself with was getting the correct sequence of pronation - supination - pronation - supination (note: I quickly found that concentrating only on what my left hand was doing worked best for me).
This created a feeling unlike anything I had previously experienced -- sort of a "Jim Furyk Gone Wild" feeling.
When I hit the first ball with this method, my hands felt very "oily" and "quick" through Release and Impact. The ball went 10 yards farther than my previous best. I hit 10 balls, all of which went farther than the first 20 with my "old" method. I then went back and forth, doing an A - B comparison. "New" beat "Old" on all but one shot.
On the range, I couldn't tell what my body (pivot) was doing because I was concentrating too much on just hitting my hand positions. But the whole motion felt very coordinated and I finished nicely on balance. I also noticed I didn't pull any shots -- one of my tendencies with the short irons.
I was surprised after I got home and was able to watch this swing in the mirror. It didn't look all that much different than my normal swing -- and it certainly didn't look like Jim Furyk on acid.
It is clear to me that I was creating more clubhead speed by adding in an "extra" supination - pronation sequence. I also didn't have to think much about the body (Zone 1).
This is a fascinating discussion. Thank you for these posts.
I assume you are describing a Swinging procedure with the exercise. To put a "label" on these motions, I would say that #1 describes the "start up swivel" and #4 describes the "release swivel".
I'm probably doing something wrong because I don't do step #2. Once I reach the step #1 position, I maintain it to the top and back down to club once again parallel to the ground.
What am I missing?
Mike,
To piggy back on RCW's question . . . where would the club be pointing in step #2 based on the pronation of the right forearm? "across the line" or "laid off"?
Also, when you define "hands" are we talking humerous bone, forearms, wrists, hands and fingers?
I agree with RCW you are "on to something."
__________________
Aloha Mr. Hand
Behold my hands; reach hither thy hand
Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 01-30-2006 at 11:03 PM.
I just wanted to put up some of 5-0 for everyone to see the platform from which Mike has launched this starship.
The Hands are the “Command Post” for all Feel processing. As the Stroke proceeds, they dictate to the Feet as certainly as the dictate to the Club. No Negative (Off Course) Feedback can get to – or from – the Clubhead except through the Hands. Regardless of the amount of technical know-how and practice, uneducated hands can nullify it all and never even be suspected. Monitor all three elements of the Club (1-L) by way of the Hands – never directly. The Hands are much easier to Monitor than the Clubhead because their travel is so much more even and slower (2-K-6). The first step in this Educational Process “Look, Look, Look” per 3-B. If you feel your game isn’t reflecting your understanding of Alignments- STOP MONITORING THE CLUBFACE INSTEAD OF YOUR HANDS. And, unless otherwise specified, at all times – but especially during Start Down- maintain the Clubhead Lag relationship to the Plane Line – not the body. That – failure to clear Right Hip (Roundhouse) can initiate almost every alignment disruption, including SHANKING (2-F, 3-F-7-E, 6-C-2). Constantly upgrade their information storage and retrieval as with any other computer.
“Monitoring” is awareness – through “Feel”, “Feedback”, sensation – of the location, condition, direction etc. of any element for any purpose. When you watch as you reach for your cup, you are unaware fo your hands. But with your eyes closed you are acutely dependent on them. Then notice how quickly they can adapt when “monitored.” Golfers have the same problem. Because your eyes must be on the Ball, they cannot watch the Club. So swing the Club with your eyes closed until you realize how consciousness of the Club, per se, is so disruptive as compared with consciousness of the Hands. Learn to SWING THE HANDS, MONITOR THE HANDS. Some players use the Club only to develop its TOTAL equivalent in Lag Pressure Point Feel. That is – until the Hands no longer consciously Monitor the Clubhead or the Body – only themselves, and automatically dictate total Component compliance with Delivery Path (6-E) and Delivery Line (2-J-3) requirements (7-23). Both are Monitored by the Hands but the Delivery Lines, in addition, must be “Traced” by the Right Forearm. For the ARC of Approach Delivery Line that relationship is with true geometric Plane Line, itself. The Plane Line – being the Basic – can substitute any of its “Visual Equivalents” at any time. In either or both directions. Because the Right Forearm and Clubshaft are on the same Plane during Release and Impact (7-3), players actually Monitor the Clubhead Delivery Line by “Tracing” along it with the Right Forearm with the #3 Pressure Point as the lens causing its beam to move along the Reference Line. Study 2-N and 4-D.
Mike you are a credit to all Machinists! Thanks! B
To piggy back on RCW's question . . . where would the club be pointing in step #2 based on the pronation of the right forearm? "across the line" or "laid off"? It could be right on plane- but at this level I'm not integrating the plane - just isolating the concept of patterns of joint motions and noting the added movement/and power in that kind of backswing.
Also, when you define "hands" are we talking humerous bone, forearms, wrists, hands and fingers? You'd have to define the context of the question, but as a general answer I would say not the fingers, and the hands are the hands. However, what you try to do with your hands can create different movements in your upper arm (humerus), your forearms, and your wrists.
I hit balls on the range today using the procedure set out by Mike O. in his posts #29 and #31. I did this with my pitching wedge after first hitting about 20 balls with my regular Swinging procedure. I made about 15 - 20 rehearsal swings to get the sequence down. There is no mirror on the range for me to "see" what was happening, so all I concerned myself with was getting the correct sequence of pronation - supination - pronation - supination (note: I quickly found that concentrating only on what my left hand was doing worked best for me).
This created a feeling unlike anything I had previously experienced -- sort of a "Jim Furyk Gone Wild" feeling.
When I hit the first ball with this method, my hands felt very "oily" and "quick" through Release and Impact. The ball went 10 yards farther than my previous best. I hit 10 balls, all of which went farther than the first 20 with my "old" method. I then went back and forth, doing an A - B comparison. "New" beat "Old" on all but one shot.
On the range, I couldn't tell what my body (pivot) was doing because I was concentrating too much on just hitting my hand positions. But the whole motion felt very coordinated and I finished nicely on balance. I also noticed I didn't pull any shots -- one of my tendencies with the short irons.
I was surprised after I got home and was able to watch this swing in the mirror. It didn't look all that much different than my normal swing -- and it certainly didn't look like Jim Furyk on acid.
It is clear to me that I was creating more clubhead speed by adding in an "extra" supination - pronation sequence. I also didn't have to think much about the body (Zone 1).
Mike O. -- you're on to something.
Bob,
Thanks for being a guinea pig! It was fun to see that you understood what I was describing- and why some would or would not see results with it (it's not a miracle cure- just a part of the puzzle that some have and some don't), it was also nice to here your results- which was what I was describing also.
Your quote:
"It is clear to me that I was creating more clubhead speed by adding in an "extra" supination - pronation sequence."
Your description of above is correct- that supination starting the downswing of the right forearm (that happens automatically- if you got up there with the right forearm pronated), combined with the related right arm motions of right humerus adduction and external rotation, and that flow through the other joints, really add power to the clubhead motion. You've effectively lengthened the downswing- by creating those additional movements. It's no different than throwing a football- at the top of the backswing the front of the ball is facing behind you i.e. you've flipped it around with the pronation of the right forearm. Notice how much less power you would have if you hadn't done that. That's how you were hitting the ball before.
Your Quote:
"I also didn't have to think much about the body (Zone 1)."
That's correct- you created a pattern, starting with how/where in space you moved your hands- that changed the forearm motion, that changed the upper arm motion, that changed the shoulder motion, that changed the hip motion, that changed the lower body motion- getting you closer to a hand- controlled pivot. The irony is that you got the pivot more involved- automatically. Versus before - to clear that right hip or to make prevent from coming over the top- you had to have a pivot controlled procedure- antherwords you had to think about moving the pivot because of improper hand/arm motions- such as trig was mentioning earlier in this thread. And so you didn't need to think about the pivot to make it move- and yet it was moving alot more - or functioning more on auto-pilot.
Mike O's Diabolical Hand Controlled Pivot Experiment
Cool! Wasn't able to hit balls but took some "dry" swings in the mirror like this. I looked like a goof-ball (well more of a goofball) with the supinated left hand (palm facing the sky). But man when the sequenced is reversed everything quickly falls into place. It just happens. The pivot looks better, better axis tilt, better storage . . . all without having to "think" about it.
Cool! Wasn't able to hit balls but took some "dry" swings in the mirror like this. I looked like a goof-ball (well more of a goofball) with the supinated left hand (palm facing the sky). But man when the sequenced is reversed everything quickly falls into place. It just happens. The pivot looks better, better axis tilt, better storage . . . all without having to "think" about it.
Pretty cool Mike O!
DIABOLICAL?
Colonel,
I thought it was obvious but you're the only one that's called me out- yes, I'm am Darthvader- and my goal is to undermine all TGM swings- so that I can win all bets! By the end of next week- RWH- should be shooting around 110 and I'll be flying to Oklahoma to line up my match with him! After I'm done with him not even YODA will be able to revive him! And by the sounds of it- I've already lined up a direct flight from Oklahoma to North Carolina- where I will be frying chicken! As long as I can stay away from EC while I'm there I'll be fine- one of those come in quick and get out quick operations. Colonel- don't....
Evil never wins . . . well it probably would beat me like I stole something.
Originally Posted by Mike O
DIABOLICAL?
Colonel,
I thought it was obvious but you're the only one that's called me out- yes, I'm am Darthvader- and my goal is to undermine all TGM swings- so that I can win all bets! By the end of next week- RWH- should be shooting around 110 and I'll be flying to Oklahoma to line up my match with him! After I'm done with him not even YODA will be able to revive him! And by the sounds of it- I've already lined up a direct flight from Oklahoma to North Carolina- where I will be frying chicken! As long as I can stay away from EC while I'm there I'll be fine- one of those come in quick and get out quick operations. Colonel- don't....
Mike,
I'm quite sure that if you came to NC, Bucket would be left violated crying like a little girl in the fetal position. I am no match for the Diabolical Force of Darkness. You should definitely stay away from EC . . . DON'T STEP ON A HORNET'S NEST IF AIN'T GOT TO.
As far as the "come in quick and get out quick operation" . . . I won't. I mean you're the one with the name Mike . . . "O".
). 
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