As for my tone on arrival here, have a look at what you
were saying in this thread prior to my contribution especially
the "centrifugally powered golf swing" snideness and the
person who decided to visit ISG to "tell us off", followed
after my post by the mockery about the "force with no name".
The primary lever assembly is powered into impact by a pressure against it... Centrifugal force does not 'power' the golf stroke... its effect is utilised. No where in the book does Homer ever reference the 'centrifugally powered swing'....
The problem is, I just don't know how seriously I can take someone who has yet to figure out that they do not need to press enter to go to a new line...lol
The words centripetal and centrifugal in physics have their dictionary meanings. centripetal=toward the centre, centrifugal=away from the centre. They are equal and opposite, action and reaction.
Most people get it wrong because they do not understand that the centripetal force acts on the stone, and the centrifugal force acts on the string (or the boy). We then get incorrect statements about the centrifugal force throwing the rock out and keeping the string taut and that sort of thing.
What keeps the string taut? The boy pulling on it.
What balances the centripetal force on the stone? Nothing, that's why it moves in a circle.
As a general rule, the more words used to describe the phenomenon,
the more errors will be introduced.
Regardless of terminology, I have seen Golfers swing a clubhead attached to a 48" rope. They swing this rope club and hit the ball. The ball goes far. Longer than I am with a graphite shaft. Whatever name you use to identify the forces involved, we know that very great forces were involved, more than muscle power can generate. And it makes your list of power sources look a little inapplicable.
Originally Posted by golf_sceptic
Sources of power in the golf swing (focussed on the club)
1. early in the downswing -- leverage through "locked" wrists
2. mid-downswing to impact -- the slingshot (or flail) effect
together with leverage applied through the hands.
The words centripetal and centrifugal in physics have their dictionary meanings. centripetal=toward the centre, centrifugal=away from the centre. They are equal and opposite, action and reaction.
Most people get it wrong because they do not understand that the centripetal force acts on the stone, and the centrifugal force acts on the string (or the boy). We then get incorrect statements about the centrifugal force throwing the rock out and keeping the string taut and that sort of thing.
What keeps the string taut? The boy pulling on it.
What balances the centripetal force on the stone? Nothing, that's why it moves in a circle.
As a general rule, the more words used to describe the phenomenon,
the more errors will be introduced.
Centrifugal force is a convenient term describing an effective force present on objects in a rotating reference frame (an object undergoing centripetal acceleration). It is what our bodies, arms, and hands "feel" as the pulling away from the center of rotation during a swing. This concept and feel can be used as an aid to creating angular velocity. That is all that is claimed within TGM to my knowledge. Angular velocity and acceleration is what ultimately matters.
__________________ _________________________________
Steph
Distance is Magic; Precision is Practice.
Don't know why but this extract keeps springing to mind.
`And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'
`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected. `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' `The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything.
The primary lever assembly is powered into impact by a pressure against it... Centrifugal force does not 'power' the golf stroke... its effect is utilised.
What do you believe centrifugal force is acting on?
Quote:
No where in the book does Homer ever reference the 'centrifugally powered swing'....
"This throw out action is termed herein as 'Centrifugal Acceleration' to indicate that Centrifugal Force (Centrifugal Reaction), not muscle, is propelling the Secondary Lever Assembly (the golf club) into Impact. So swingers are totally dependant on their skill at manipulating Centrifugal Force while Hitters are not."
I don't think my throwaway comment in the middle of a 16 page discussion constitutes any sort of a major misrepresentation. Certainly not to the extent that is it vulnerable to being shot down as if its the heart and sole of my proposition that Homer either misunderstood centrifugal force or deliberately mis-stated its application.
I ask again, what was the centrifugal force acting on?
Quote:
The problem is, I just don't know how seriously I can take someone who has yet to figure out that they do not need to press enter to go to a new line...lol
...and people have a dig at me about what I write?!
If you are uncomfortable with what I write, ask questions.
Last edited by golf_sceptic : 06-27-2006 at 01:26 AM.
Regardless of terminology, I have seen Golfers swing a clubhead attached to a 48" rope. They swing this rope club and hit the ball. The ball goes far. Longer than I am with a graphite shaft. Whatever name you use to identify the forces involved, we know that very great forces were involved, more than muscle power can generate.
Yes. I remember Wedgy Winchester (US pro who toured Australia in the 70s
and gave trick shot demos) and his rubber hose shafted club well. There
was centrifugal force at work there as well, but not on the clubhead!
Quote:
And it makes your list of power sources look a little inapplicable.
Nope. The power comes from the second of the sources -- the flail or slingshot effect. This is what Homer incorrectly labelled as centrifugal.
Let's not get distracted though. It's not my theories that are under the spotlight. It's simply the misunderstanding of centrifugal force in Homer's writings (and most explanations) that is at stake. That's all. No more. No less. I'm more than happy to explain the physics correctly and let others ponder on the implications for TGM. In my book it doesn't change the teaching principles one little bit.
Last edited by golf_sceptic : 06-27-2006 at 12:43 AM.
Centrifugal force is a convenient term describing an effective force present on objects in a rotating reference frame (an object undergoing centripetal acceleration).
Yes, but everything gets a whole lot harder once you start using non-inertial frames of reference. Bear in mind also that in a non-inertial frame of reference such as that viewed using a camera attached to the clubhead, the centrifugal force neatly balances the centripetal force and the clubhead remains still in the camera's eye as does the centre of the motion. Only the objects not attached to the clubhead appear to be flung outward. Again, the clubhead is not accelerated outward by centrifugal force in that or any other useful frame of reference because centrifugal force does not act on the clubhead.
The "throw out" effect is real. It is not, however, created by centrifugal force.
Quote:
It is what our bodies, arms, and hands "feel" as the pulling away from the center of rotation during a swing.
Yes. 100% correct. The reaction to our pulling inward (centripetal force) is the outward (or centrifugal) force that we feel and it acts on our bodies (not on the clubhead).
Quote:
This concept and feel can be used as an aid to creating angular velocity.
Nope. As you so clearly pointed out, the centrifugal force acts on us not the clubhead.
Quote:
That is all that is claimed within TGM to my knowledge. Angular velocity and acceleration is what ultimately matters.
Correct. The TGM concept of centrifugal force is wrong. Angular velocity and acceleration are paramount, but that is a topic for another day!
Last edited by golf_sceptic : 06-27-2006 at 01:12 AM.
What do you believe centrifugal force is acting on?
"This throw out action is termed herein as 'Centrifugal Acceleration' to indicate that Centrifugal Force (Centrifugal Reaction), not muscle, is propelling the Secondary Lever Assembly (the golf club) into Impact. So swingers are totally dependant on their skill at manipulating Centrifugal Force while Hitters are not."
Are you saying that the word "propelling" does not have any association with force or power?
I ask again, what was the centrifugal force acting on?
...and people have a dig at me about what I write?!
If you are uncomfortable with what I write, ask questions.
The right forearm in a swingers stroke is driven into impact by the right shoulder going downplane to throw the entire right flying wedge into impact. You turn an axis to spin a flywheel.... the right arm continually being pulled towards a straight line at 90 degrees to the turning axis (think chinese drum), but the checkrein of the left arm maintains the bend in the right arm whilst the aiming point of pp3 controls the precision of the clubheads motion around two centers.
The centrifugal force is the secondary lever assembly and the right flying wedge getting thrown into impact via the right shoulder motion...just like a chinese drum.
"Drum technique. Understand?" - Mr Miyagi
"Is there a counterpunch in the technique?" - Daniel-san
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