Thanks Yoda for the welcome note after my first post. I've been reading your posts here since inception and before that your writings on Brian's and Chuck's sites. Time to jump in and join the fun.
I wanted to share with the TGM crowd some of Mac O'Grady's swing principles. I spent 3 full days with Mac in Orlando in January with my local AI Ted Britschgi (also a great teacher). He said his whole swing philosophy changed when he discovered Homer's book. To him, Homer was THE MAN.
My own background is that I've been playing 40 years, currently to a 3 hcp. I became a follower of Todd Graves and Natural Golf for a few years and though it helped my game significantly I was drawn to the science of TGM about a year ago and have since become a convert.
I would welcome comments and comparisons of Mac's ideas with TGM. He feels that the ideal swing is about 75% Snead and 25% Hogan. Because Mac's work is so detailed, I can only give a glimpse in this post, but here goes with some selected points:
1. Set up: : Buttend of club points at the navel. Very little backward spine tilt (i.e., away from the target). Mac emphasizes maintaining a Center of Gravity (COG). Both feet slightly flared outwards. Since I'm 54, he also pulled my right foot back on ALL shots. He also discourages the chin up position -- says the eyes must look directly at the ball (his teachings stress the importance of the eyes). Grip: ideally LH is turned 45 degrees.
2. Backswing: The hands go back, in and up, right along the plane line. For me, it became a feeling of the hands going inside, but the clubhead went much less inside. When the lead arm is parallel to the ground it would point about 45 degrees to the right of the target (for a right hander). At the top of the BS, the left wrist should be flat with a definite feeling of the extensor action on PP#1 (I tend to double-cock, which I've learned destroys the flying wedge). One real big point: you must maintain the COG at the time -- no effort to get everything behind the ball. For me the feeling is that the left hip does not move away from the target on the BS, but DOES move laterally on the DS. He pointed to both Hogan and Snead and factitously laughed about how they would "reverse pivot" (they are Mac's heros).
3. Downswing: At the beginning of the DS, EVERYTHING moves towards the target, even the head. I expect this may distinguish his move from TGM. However, the head backs up slightly just before impact, so it doesn't get ahead of the ball. He advocates a straight line delivery path. The left shoulder stays down rather than going up on the downswing because Mac believes if it goes up you'll get jammed and also dump off the lag. We spent lots of time working on developing lag but his key points for lag: The deltoids bring the club down the first part of the DS and the triceps don't fire until just before the release point. The trail elbow must keep moving forward ("seeking the navel") while the right wrist remains bent. And the clincher is exactly what I think (if I understood correctly) Yoda said was Hogan's key -- you sustain the lag by the momentum transfer forward; for some, a push off the trail foot. The minute you slow down that transfer the clubhead will overtake the hands. On the follow-through, Mac had me getting my trail shoulder to a point forward and behind position of the left shoulder at address. He definitely stresses rotational forces.
I hope I've been faithful to Mac's teachings in my descriptions, incomplete as they must be, and I hope he wouldn't mind my posting about what he teaches. He is an extremely intense, enthusiatic teacher. Quite a story-teller too, but a very private individual. No doubt, I've got a lot to learn about TGM, but I'm trying -- every day, thanks to Yoda and the many knowledgeable posters here.
Incidentally, Mac said that last year he was striking the ball better than ever and planned to attempt to get back on the regular PGA Tour again at 53, but unfortunately seriously injured his elbow in a fall a few months ago and had to have surgery on it. At the school in January he couldn't straighten his right arm and was relegated to hitting no more than 50 yard pitches. Hopefully, he'll regain his form, either right handed or left handed . He plays from both sides, in fact once shot a 68 left-handed in a US Open qualifier. He's very interested in biomechanics and believes that learning how to swing left-handed taught him a lot about training the body for various key moves.
says the eyes must look directly at the ball (his teachings stress the importance of the eyes).
Can you elaborate on this? Why the eyes are so important...
Quote:
Grip: ideally LH is turned 45 degrees...
...At the top of the BS, the left wrist should be flat with a definite feeling of the extensor action on PP#1 (I tend to double-cock, which I've learned destroys the flying wedge).
Wouldn't this produce a shut clubface? The strong grip with the flat left wrist.
I believe I've heard before that he prefers a closed (or "strong) face angle so he can "hold it off" through the ball and not hit the ball left...
I think Mac said something to the effect that the eyes are the portal to the brain and also affect our balance. He's researched the bioscience behind EVERY facet of the swing. He wants the eyes to be as parallel to the plane as possible into the follow-through and finish. He would hold a clubshaft parallel to the plane line on the follow-through and tell you to keep your head and eyes parallel to it.
I don't know the answer to the grip question. I can say, however, that on the backswing once the hands get to hip high (P2 position as Mac calls it -- there are 8 positions to the swing) the right wrist begins to cock so that the clubshaft doesn't get under the plane. I'm sure many will dispute this, as I know from Yoda's teachings that the right wrist should never cock, only bend, although I think Homer merely said it was "ideal". I have struggled with this issue, but if I don't feel like there is some cocking of the right wrist I seem to get the clubhead too far inside and off plane. Perhaps I can get some help with that issue on this forum.
One other point I forgot to mention. At the top of the BS, Mac advocates a straight trail leg (not locked though), much like Sam Snead.
Bew69,
Thanks for your ideas and contributions....I too have spent time with Mac O'Grady....A lot of time...(For most it's a one or two time deal and you're OUT.... so surviving the first couple visits is truly a rare, event, let alone being "cooped" up in the same suite!!!) ... And for those who ever get close too a fire ....eventually they will get BURNT....
Mac has several models( These models are based upon how to "adjust the Golfing Machine" and the" Human Machine to the intended ball flight" ...Trajectory, Curvature, Distance and Direction)...
And what you've desribed in your post is only a small ....very, very small sample....1/1,000,000 of his "extensive research with MORAD"....This fraction is NO EXAGGERATION!!!!
Yes, Mac had an extensive training in the "Golfing Machine" from Mr. Kelley himself and others, as well as a continued phone dialogue with Mr. Kelley as well. He expressed to me on more than one occasion that he still has a "love and reverence" toward Mr.Kelley and his years of work with the Machine. A love perhaps that was missing from his own childhood upbringing....WE'LL NEVER KNOW....
The book itself has and is always credited by Mac as his starting point with his own continued research on the "Human Machine and it's marriage to the Golfing Machine" It is unfortunate for all of Golfdom and Mr.O'Grady that it's relationships with most are only temporary at Best....
He truly is a "Golfing Genius"....He like so few others can actually articulate and demonstrate the applications of the Yellow Book!!!!
.....However, what bothers Mac is not the Machine....but some of those who are unwilling to see it's "Latitude in Instruction" in using the Machine and it's Principles.... So.... it would be fair to say that Mac doesn't bash the Book. He still studies the "Yellow Book" to this day and a whole bunch of other Books!!!!....He just doesn't care too much for those who have a very narrow perspective when it comes to the Book.
The eyes which are located in the Head are what need to be stable or centrally foviated on the object to maintain the balance centers located in the eyes, ears, and muscular system ....( The could be viewed by some as the ideal definition of a stable or stationary head)....You see ....one must be able to rotate the head and neck whille maintaining central focus on the ball this is called the "Sacadiian Reflex" of the eyes.
This web site created by Lynn Blake is for discussion on the Golfing Machine...
Although I owe Mac O'Grady a lot .... As well as, Lynn Blake..I mean BOTH.... A lot of credit for my education, not just in the Golfing Machine....But for the Game itself and some valuable life lessons...
I feel it would be in the best interest for all, if this particular thread be CLOSED to only Golfing Machine information and discussion...
Knowing both parties personally....Lynn Blake and Mac O'Grady ....I feel it would be best to keep the seperate identities of information....SEPERATED.... This is my personal opinion!!!!
Pride,Self Centeredness, and Ego destroys Relationships !!!!
It is the root of all Evil!!!
I will try at best to no longer post on this particular thread....Mac O'Grady and TGM due to personal interests in BOTH wonderful sources of Information.
Sorry. Of course, I'll respect the wishes of our moderator if this thread should be closed. I was only looking for some TGM insight into Mac's teachings from those more knowledgeable than I, especially since Mac does claim that much of his swing theory is based on TGM.
I am far more interested in the similarity or dissimilarity of the teaching methods than I am about Mac as a person. There are plenty of Mac bashers out there. I'm not one of them.
No apologies necessary....You're interest in the TGM and it's relevance to Mac O'Grady should be discussed....Discussions in this forum are not "Policed" by me.... but others who are affiliated with Lynn's best interest in mind ....If you want to "PM" me on this subject..... I'll be happy to "SHARE" with you anything that I can....I appreciate your interest!!!!
No Apologies Necessary....Just another interested learner of the History of the Golfing Machine!!!!
An open window is great for airing out a room. As long as personalities are respected, I have no objection to discussing TGM in relation to other instructional systems or methods.
I have felt that it is imperative to have a Golfing Machine background in order to truly understand the MORAD research....
In regards to the grip question ....A Pre-Turned grip of 45 degrees to the right is compatible with Angled Hinging....A Half roll.... so the Pre-Turned Grip is "Halfway" to eliminate some turn and roll during the backstroke, release, and follow-through intervals. It also is more compatible with a "Cut Shot" Procedure and the Paddlewheel Concept of Angled Hinging. If you look very closely ....very closely... the reason it looks so "STRONG" is because "Pre-Turned Grips" have a different degree of Bend by adjusting the Address Inclination of the Clubshaft!!!!
For Example, Mac's set-up is with a very sharp #3 Accumulator on the Hands Only Plane...Then shifts to Elbow and then Turned Shoulder during the backstroke and comes down in a wide variety of ways depending on the shot at hand!!!! This is his individual preference and has VERY VALID reasons for that Variation at Address.
However, if he were to swing more "cross-line" toward right field ...I believe he would adjust his "Machine" and raise the shaft up to a more orthodox looking address that most are trained to see and they would not have a problem with it. His approach has tremendous....Latitude in Instruction....
For Example ...If you have a pre-turned grip and you lower the Shaft which increases the "acuteness" of the #3 Accumulator...this lowering will increase the amount of address Bend in the Left Wrist ....Thus "affecting" the Plane of the Clubface(More Closed wichich is compatible for Angled Hinging)....Conversely by raising the shaft and decreasing the #3 Accumulator it will decrease the Address Bend of the Left Wrist . Try it for yourself !!!!
By the way as a reminder 7-2-#3
-The back of the Flat Left Wrist and the Lag Pressure Point (6-C-2-0) BOTH facing down the Angle of Approach(2-J-3) Otherwise, per 7-3, both must face down the right forearm Impact Fix Alignment....This means the hands are not facing each other down the Target Line, but looking down the angle of approach of the right forearm angle of approach at impact Fix....Look closely at Mr. O'Grady's Grip very, very close to what is described in 7-2 with the Left Hand perhaps pre-turned a little mote to accomodate for his preference toward Angled Hinging....
See Sam Snead's Grip Type....Then if you want it a little stronger yet....check out Lee"Buck" Trevino's. Then a little more...Paul Azinger!!!!
Many have wondered, why the MORAD Stuff is so HUSH-HUSH....
Try this ....If you you were testing and trying out something and you were thinking of publishing or inventing something for a business venture and you showed some friends some of your findings wouldn't you ask perhaps for some confidentiality...Especially if it were in a constant state of change or evolution....Sure you would want a little respect for your effort!!!
Just like Mr. Kelley's Beautiful work with the Yellow Book was in q constant state of evolution....Why do think there are Six edtions and perhaps the Seventh in the Future!!! Mr. O'Grady doesn't claim to have "INVENTED" anything....He has just classified ....and re-classified infromation and is constantly "testing" things out!
Will He ever publish?....My Guess ...Probably NO!!!...He writes beautifully...Not just about golf either....He's very creative and does believe it or not ....He has a great imagination and sense of humor!!!!
I have absolutely no reason to defend Mr. O'Grady, however, I greatly appreciate and respect his work to this day.
Just as I have the same "Respect" for Master Yoda and his great contributions and "Return" with this spectacular forum!!!!!
Mr. O'Grady sets up very low with the hands and bends over quite a bit(first axis tilt). I have noticed that he does not maintain the first Axis tilt through the ball... i.e. the spine angle straightens(more toward vertical) some. Is this what he wants? If so, what is the reason?
Hybrid Mode
