Plane of left wrist cock and left arm

[Mathew]

Mike O

When I use the term upcocking, I am only referring to the process of radial deviation of the wrist. It has nothing to do with the "backswing" per se. I should just stick to HK's use of the term "cocking" and stop using the generic term "upcocking".

I cannot really understand the "issue" that Golfbulldog is exploring. He seems to be exploring the relationship of the left wrist cock action relative to a single linear plane (like a glass pane which is only generally representative of the clubshaft plane in the downswing). I believe that the left wrist cock action can only be perfectly in plane with that glass pane (in a linear sense) at a single moment in time - when the curved path of the left wrist cocking action (left arm flying wedge action) is exactly on that glass pane and parallel to that glass pane "somewhere" in mid-downswing. That "somewhere" point primarily depends on the rate of rotation of the left arm flying wedge during the downswing relative to the degree of dropping of the hands down to the ground in each individual golfer.

The point that I was making about the curved left wrist cocking plane and its relationship to the clubshaft only has relevance to the intrinsic relationships within the left arm flying wedge unit - when the clubshaft is at right angles to the left arm unit, and the left wrist is always flat, then the clubshaft must always travel in the same curved plane as the left arm. This "curved-on plane" inter-relationship between the left arm and clubshaft must change dramatically during a swivel action when forearm action causes the flat left wrist/hand unit to supinate (close) relative to the overall left arm/hand movement arc.

Here is an example.



This series of images represents the release swivel action. The clubshaft is swinging down the inclined plane, but the left wrist uncocking planar action is totally unrelated to that inclined plane - because the entire flat left wrist-hand unit is swiveling counterclockwise during this time period.

The general point that I am attempting to make is that relating the i) plane of left wrist uncocking action to ii) a single inclined clubshaft plane (generally represented by a glass pane placed on the ball-target line baseline and inclined at a certain angle) is meaningless, because it depends on iii) the degree of rotation of the left arm and iv) the degree of dropping of the hands per unit time during the downswing, which is individual-golfer dependent.

Jeff.

Homer Kelley referenced the wrist conditions in chapter 4 and is basically describing three 90 degree circles of rotation around the left wrist center. In 3D terminology these are labeled the x,y and z axis. Homer Kelley on the other hand labeled these horizontal(bent/arched), perpendicular (cocked/uncocked), and rotational (turned/rolled) and appear precisely in the same order as x,y and z. Homer Kelley's intentions could not be any more clear on this.

As an analogy, think of a globe and imagine the equator and 2 circles drawn from the north and south pole whereby all intersections of these circles are at 90 degrees from each other.

Both the horizontal and perpendicular circles of rotation will influence the club on a flat plane. These circles will also influence the movement of each other but not the rotational or z axis is the fixed constant around the rotation of the left wrist.

To think of the 'perpendicular' (cocking and uncocking) displacement as taking place on a curved plane is incorrect unless your 'reinventing' what has been one of the most basic cornerstones of engineering and mathematical knowledge as has been practiced for the last few centuries.

The displacing effect with the z-axis is somewhat more tricky to explain but not so difficult to understand once you can visualise it. When the club is directly opposed to the rotational plane it has no displacing effect other than turning it in a conical shape around the longitudinal center of gravity. When it is on the rotational plane, then it will move on a flat plane. When the club is between these alignments the club will now get displaced in a conical movement. However, the displacement of the club is still always still taking place with regards to its 2D axis.

Mechanically without anatomical restraint any two of these axis can move the club anywhere around the left wrist center whereby Homer Kelley outlined the possible wrist conditions in the standard flail of 2-K...

Now I cannot be bothered typing what I said before so let me just copy and paste here.
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If the left wristcock takes place without a bent or arched condition, it moves on a plane that is aligned with the left arm. Since the left arm is not onplane and it is above plane therefore the left wristcock plane CANNOT EVER be aligned to the inclined plane.
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However if you wish to use the sequenced release you must align the perpendicular axis to the inclined plane inorder to make it independant of the rotational axis, the horizontal axis must be employed.

However simultaneous release is possible without any movement on the horizontal axis. Homer Kelley may have known this as he referenced that he believed that both swingers and hitters should use hitting alignments, and that his entire premise of clubface control was based around using two axis or rotation. I could make many arguements against this premise however mechanical advantage, and what constitutes swinging is not at the heart of this thread.

As a critique of Homer Kelley, this produces many contradictions in the book where some parts are actually misleading. On the other hand, I can understand Homer Kelleys intentions for simplicity inorder to get through to those with occult idealogies as the hitting alignments Homer Kelley suggests is indeed simplier than the swinging pattern I would suggest to intellectually grasp and explain. It is a system but a system based on an adaptable 'hitting' pattern and in that respect the book is perfect. However preforming a sequenced release with a 'flat' left wrist is hogwash that needs to be throughly disposed of.

[Jeff]

Mathew - thanks for responding and offering a detailed explanation.

Unfortunately, I don't have the intellectual firepower to understand your explanation. I would need an even more simplified explanation, preferably with diagrams, to understand your viewpoint.

I especially don't understand your statement "to think of the 'perpendicular' (cocking and uncocking) displacement as taking place on a curved plane is incorrect unless your 'reinventing' what has been one of the most basic cornerstones of engineering and mathematical knowledge as has been practiced for the last few centuries."

When I state that the left wrist cocking/uncocking is occurring on a curved plane, I am referring to the sequential movement of the "left hand uncocking unit" in space over time. The left wrist has to uncock in a perpendicular plane (relative to the left arm), but if one traces the path of left wrist uncocking motions during the early/mid downswing, then the path is curved. To make my own position more understandable, I have produced this series of images.



I got these capture images from a Stuart Appleby swing video

I used a spline tool to trace the butt end of the club at the left hand to trace the movement of the flat left wrist unit during the downswing. One can see that the sequential movement of the "left wrist uncocking unit" forms a curved path. One can also see that the curved left hand path intersects the inclined plane in image 5, at which time the back of the left hand is also parallel to the inclined plane and the clubshaft is on that plane - and that supports my previous post where I stated that the left wrist uncocking phenomenon occurs on a curved plane that only intersects the single inclined plane "somewhere" in the mid-downswing.

You stated-: "If the left wristcock takes place without a bent or arched condition, it moves on a plane that is aligned with the left arm. Since the left arm is not onplane and it is above plane therefore the left wristcock plane CANNOT EVER be aligned to the inclined plane."

I believe that image 5 disproves your theory. I believe that there is a single moment in time when the flat left wrist uncocking plane is aligned to the inclined plane, and that occurs at that exact moment in time (depicted in image 5).

Jeff.

[O.B.Left]

To my mind some of the confusion around this topic relates to the perception of what the "THE" plane really is. Some see it as a single non shifting plane, the shaft plane that the club travels only below the waist. Others see it as a shifting plane of glass.

See Mathews animation 1-L-18 which shows the club traveling along the plane as it shifts up and down all the while maintaining a straight base line.

Jeff your diagrams of Appleby might seem to suggest a curving path of the hands and a shaft non aligned to the plane at times. Leadbetter came to a similar conclusion I think. But what if App's plane line was drawn to show his shifts? The hands in 3-D space might still travel in a curve but the club might be seen to remain on the plane at all times with the butt pointing at the baseline. If he is on plane, that is.

I believe the club may cock along this (shifting) plane as well if you cock it correctly and at the right time. Golfers with an early right hand wrist cock for instance might be cocking off plane. I saw Tiger practicing this on Saturday at the Masters. Golfers employing extensor action and a shortening side of the triangle to cock the left wrist with the bending right elbow after swiveling onto the turned shoulder plane, will to my mind, be cocking on the shifting plane.

The relationship of the left wrist to the shifting plane is of interest to me. If the palm of the left wrist lays on the plane at top and the left arm is above plane the left wrist must be bent. Grip type may influence the degree of bend. Impact or follow through often sees a flat or arched left wrist.

All of which leads me wonder about this threads original topic, "the plane of the left wrist cock". If it isnt in line with the left arm but on plane, I wonder about the implications to the left wrist bend. With an apparent contradiction to my, no doubt limited, understanding of the Left Arm Flying Wedge and Rhythm.

Yoda? Are we correct in thinking a swinger should bend and flatten or even arch his left wrist? A use of horizontal wrist motion to align the club on plane? Or are we misunderstanding something?

It may be that words fail to properly describe the topic at hand. Mathew, have you had any success trying to render this? It would be an achievement of monumental proportion if you were successful. If you have tried Im sure you have insights of interest to the forum. Any super roughs, thumbnails?

O.B.

[Jeff]

OB Left

You wrote-: "Jeff your diagrams of Appleby might seem to suggest a curving path of the hands and a shaft non aligned to the plane at times. Leadbetter came to a similar conclusion I think. But what if App's plane line was drawn to show his shifts? The hands in 3-D space might still travel in a curve but the club might be seen to remain on the plane at all times with the butt pointing at the baseline. If he is on plane, that is."

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I think that Appleby's clubshaft is always "on plane" if the peripheral end of the club always points at the baseline. However, his clubshaft is not on a single plane. It is on an near-infinite number of planes (depending on how thin you slice the planes) between the turned shoulder plane and the elbow plane during the early/mid downswing, and it is therefore continuously shifting planes. During the early downswing, the "imaginary" clubshaft plane will be steeper, and it will be less steep as the hands progressively reach waist level.

A rough idea of the degree of plane shift of the clubshaft during the downswing can be obtained by tracing the clubhead path using a spline tool.

The following composite photo of Aaron Baddeley's swing shows the splined path of the clubhead (roughly reflecting the angular-shifting of the clubshaft planes during the early/mid downswing) and the splined path of the flat left hand arc. The hand arc plane is steeper and I think that it can only conceived to be on the "same" plane as the clubshaft plane at a "somewhere" point in the mid-downswing.



Jeff.

[Mike O]

OB Left

You wrote-: "Jeff your diagrams of Appleby might seem to suggest a curving path of the hands and a shaft non aligned to the plane at times. Leadbetter came to a similar conclusion I think. But what if App's plane line was drawn to show his shifts? The hands in 3-D space might still travel in a curve but the club might be seen to remain on the plane at all times with the butt pointing at the baseline. If he is on plane, that is."

-------------------

I think that Appleby's clubshaft is always "on plane" if the peripheral end of the club always points at the baseline. However, his clubshaft is not on a single plane. It is on an near-infinite number of planes (depending on how thin you slice the planes) between the turned shoulder plane and the elbow plane during the early/mid downswing, and it is therefore continuously shifting planes. During the early downswing, the "imaginary" clubshaft plane will be steeper, and it will be less steep as the hands progressively reach waist level.


Jeff.

Jeff,
Absolutely with you on this. OB's comment is in principle the same issue that Matthew is having regarding the left wrist cocking - it's a matter of context i.e. what view or perspective you are looking at it from.

For OB the understanding needs to be that you can have a curved motion of the hands and at the same time the clubshaft can maintain a straight line relationship to a straight line. In fact if you are making plange angle shifts on the downswing as viewed from down target- not sure how the hands could move anyway but curved.

For Matthew the understanding needs to be that the left wrist can cock "in the plane of the left arm" and the shaft can still maintain a straight line relationship to a straight line- move on the inclined plane.

Regarding single plane or shifting plane- depends on what issues you are looking at- where even if one is shifting planes as happens in any full golf stroke- anaylzing issues using the single plane concept is still a valid tool for learning the relationships of some of these items. So while you may analyze an issue using a single plane - that doesn't mean that there is a single plane- it just initially limits the variables involved.

[O.B.Left]

I think that Appleby's clubshaft is always "on plane" if the peripheral end of the club always points at the baseline. However, his clubshaft is not on a single plane. It is on an near-infinite number of planes (depending on how thin you slice the planes) between the turned shoulder plane and the elbow plane during the early/mid downswing, and it is therefore continuously shifting planes. During the early downswing, the "imaginary" clubshaft plane will be steeper, and it will be less steep as the hands progressively reach waist level.
Jeff.

Jeff

Thanks. I agree with everything above accept for the word "imaginary".

To my mind a golfer 's clubshaft can and should be lying flat on a plane (turned shoulder or other) in start down. A very real and ideal thing to my mind. I also believe he should be uncocking along that plane or shifting plane. If his butt end is also pointing at the plane line, I think this to be an ideal "on plane start down". Of all the above alignments the latter, plane line, might be the most important. The hands when mapped traveling through 3D space will describe a curve when viewed from down the line, agreed. Alignment golf needs straight line relationships, hence the base line , planes etc. Compliance with curves, though real they may be, is harder to do.

But I could be totally wrong on all this. If I am it wont be the first time.

O.B.

[Jeff]

OB Left

I think that we are in general agreement on this issue.

You wrote-: "To my mind a golfer 's clubshaft can and should be lying flat on a plane (turned shoulder or other) in start down. A very real and ideal thing to my mind. I also believe he should be uncocking along that plane or shifting plane."

I agree that it is useful to think of having the clubshaft lying on a plane during start down and also during the early/mid downswing. However, the reality is that there is no single plane that it can constantly lie on if there is a shift from the turned shoulder plane (at the end-backswing) to the elbow plane (at impact). The true reality is that the clubshaft is changing planes constantly, albeit fractionally, during its downswing passage, and that's why I used the word "imaginary". "Imaginary" doesn't imply that a plane doesn't truly exist - it implies that we are guesstimating (imagining) where the plane is at every fractional moment-of-time during the downswing.

I personally don't have a problem "imagining" the clubshaft plane to be curved - and it doesn't adversely affect my conceptual ability to imagine "being "on plane". I am also aware that my hand arc movement-in-time is slightly curved as the hands move from the top of the swing to the delivery position. From my perspective, it is easier for me to think in "curves" than straight lines, because I think that the true reality is that the body, hands and clubhead always move along a curved path. However, I can also understand the concept of a straight line thrust as utilised by a hitter who applies his thrust to the club along a radial direction (like pushing on the spokes of a wagon wheel, which is stuck in the mud, in a straight line thrust diirection, to get it to start moving).

Jeff.

[12 piece bucket]

I'd say much of this discussion depends on the plane angle and the amount of #3 angle that is inherent in that particular plane. Release motions are a blend of #2 and #3 . . . Turned Shoulder Plane has more #2 bias and Elbow Plane has more #3 bias . . . I'm not sure that you can go to fully uncocked on the elbow plane WITHOUT A PLANE ANGLE SHIFT . . . which Homer said was "hazardous." I would say more hazardous the closer you get to the ball. So full lever extension on the elbow plane may not necessarily be fully uncocked.

Somebody said that Jackie Burke said that the only time you shouldn't switch planes on a direct flight from Baltimore to Miami.

[O.B.Left]

Jeff

Agreed. We say much the same thing. Therefor, given my track record, it occurs to me that we could both be wrong.

It maybe doesnt matter how we perceive this issue about the plane as long as the butt ends of our clubs point at the base line. One mans "curved plane" is another mans shifting single plane, perhaps.

I really enjoyed the 1-L-18 animation. I see a single plane with an angle that changes and a constant straight line, base line. Planes and lines to help us with our alignments. No small trick of Homers to find the correct straight lines to swing along in an otherwise circular golf swing. Many have found the wrong straight line or lines. Steering for instance.

You could take a clock, with its hands unwaveringly traveling along its fixed plane face and tilt the clock from vertical to horizontal or any which way. I see the plane of the clocks face as undisturbed. No curves. I see the hands of the clock and the plane or face they travel as unchanged in terms of their relationship to each other.

Mapped in 3-D space the clock hands would reflect their journey and show curves, flips, twists or whatever. This could be of great use in some manner but I think Homers planes and lines to be better for alignment purposes. At least they are for me, so far.

O.B.

[O.B.Left]

Somebody said that Jackie Burke said that the only time you shouldn't switch planes on a direct flight from Baltimore to Miami.

Bucket, that was good one.

Hope Furyk reads this he could get a laugh with it.