Yoda

The 18" wide clubhead was obviously not intended to be a realistic design goal. It was only created as an "idea" to get across certain concepts - that if Anthony Kim (or any other golfer) swings perfectly on-plane (per Homer's definition of an on-plane swing) and gets to the elbow plane by the 3rd parallel, then he is going to be staying on the elbow plane between the 3rd and 4th parallels. I also think that he is going to have the "feeling" that the sweetspot rotates to the clubshaft plane post-impact (X rotates to B) and there will never be a "feeling" of the hosel leaving the elbow plane post-impact and rotating around the sweetspot.

I am not at all convinced that a golfer who mentally thinks of an orbiting sweetspot, but still swings on-plane to the elbow plane by the 3rd parallel (like Anthony Kim), will generate a different clubshaft/clubhead arc of movement than Anthony Kim.

A question - the baseline of the sweetspot plane must exist outside the baseline of the clubshaft plane. During which part of the swing is the golfer tracing the sweetspot plane (aiming at the sweetspot plane)?

Can a golfer practice tracing a SPL with a dowel stick, which doesn't have a clubhead and a rotating sweetspot that is a finite distance away from the longitudinal axis of the shaft in the impact zone?

Jeff.

Jeff,
In our mental experiments, both of them, we design the experiments to adjust the swing axis and the swing plane of the swing machine so that the sole of the clubhead to lie flat against the ground at impact!

With (1) the clubshaft in the swing plane: would be a more upright swing. (Swing axis more horizontal)
With (2) the COM of the club in the swing plane: would be a flatter swing. (Swing axis more vertical)

Both intend to start with the soled clubhead and with the soled clubhead at impact.

BTW, (2) is similar to swinging with a centered-hosel club with the clubshaft on plane.

Wish I could easily upload images.

Cavalry's Comin'!
 

Not to worry, chbkk . . . help is on the way!

Bambam!

Call to arms!

http://www.15thnewyorkcavalry.org/Media/cal2arms.wav

Assembly!

http://www.15thnewyorkcavalry.org/Media/assembly.wav

Charge!

http://www.15thnewyorkcavalry.org/Media/charge.wav

:salut:

Thanks Yoda
 

Thank you Yoda.

I am certain you are a teacher.

A great one.

I will try hard to make Jeff understand.

Here they are.....

Final Rounds
 

Thank God.

Jeff, you're missing the whole point. Assuming the Elbow Plane through Impact, the Elbow is indeed 'in Plane', but . . . with what? The answer is: the Sweetspot, and not the Clubshaft. The Clubshaft (the visible) is a close enough representation of the Sweetspot's Centrifugal Line of Pull (the invisible), but it is not quite as precise as some demand. Knowing you were coming (but still didn't quite yet get it), Homer Kelley added this sentence to 2-F:

"So, there is a Clubshaft Plane, and a Sweetspot, or Swing Plane. But, herein, unless otherwise noted, Plane Angle and Plane Line always refer to the Center of Gravity [Sweetspot] application."

You would have the good Mr. Kim held hostage to the Shaft's original Angle of Inclination, yet you move the Sweetspot NINE inches outside the original Plane of Motion. That, sir, is not only bad science, it's downright goofy. Apologies in advance if you consider that last sentence an "ad hominem' attack.

Whatever. I make no claim as to what other golfers feel. But, I do know that when David slew Goliath, the sling got in line with the rock, not the other way around.

A question posed by yourself, considered by yourself, and answered by yourself. Yet you remain unconvinced. Why?

All parts. Per 1-L #6, "The [Sweetspot (which replaces the Clubshaft per 2-F)] always the points at the Plane Line except when they are parallel to each other". And what is the golfer's means of tracing the Sweetspot Plane Line? Lag Pressure. Ya gotta ditch this preoccupation with the Clubshaft, Jeff. It's killin' ya.

Of course: Just point the dowel at the Sweetspot Plane Line (normally, the Target Line).

#-o

chbkk

I can see your two images.

However, I have no idea what you are trying to demonstrate.

A golfer doesn't stand with the left arm in-line with the clubshaft or COM at address.

Jeff.

Jeff.

I am trying to illustrate the 2 mental experiments on a swing machine like an Iron Byron.

Image 1 for experiment 1: Swing with the clubshaft on plane.
Image 2 for experiment 2: Swing with the sweetspot on plane.

Experiment 1, we may break the mechanical wrist joint from the stress of the COM of the golf club trying to move on plane.

Experiment 2, will work out fine.

Yoda

You wrote-: "All parts. Per 1-L #6, "The [Sweetspot (which replaces the Clubshaft per 2-F)] always the points at the Plane Line except when they are parallel to each other".

From my perspective, the sweetspot and the clubshaft are on the same plane when the clubshaft is above waist level (above the third parallel). Therefore, during the early-mid downswing, the butt end of the clubshaft points at the ball-target line (as if the club is merely a dowel stick without a clubhead). Therefore, I "feel" as if it is the clubshaft that points at the ball-target in the early-mid downswing.

From the delivery position to impact, a golfer simply performs a release swivel action that squares the clubface. I do not believe that a golfer can change his on-plane condition after the golf club has passed the third parallel position without "steering". I believe that if I am not perfectly on-plane by the time my clubshaft reaches the third parallel position, then it is too late to alter my imperfect off-plane condition.

Also, the absolute difference between the base of the clubshaft hosel plane and the base of the sweetspot plane reaches a maximum value of about 2" at impact and decreases to zero at the 3rd parallel and 4th parallel conditions. That results in only a small angular difference in inclined plane between the clubshaft plane and sweetspot plane in the impact zone (and which only exists to a significant degree within a distance of about 12" behind/in front of the ball) and that very small difference is something my brain automatically computes on a subconscious level.

Jeff.

Image of a Imaginary Club
 

Hope it can be of help.

chbkk

Thanks. I can understand your viewpoint about the different stresses experienced at wrist level.

Jeff.