In my Cuscowilla notes Lynn says ""Homer said number one reasons golfers don't improve is right hip doesn't clear in start up. Stack and tilt - their deal is left shoulder goes down. Start on hands plane and then go to elbow plane. This is very flat. He talked about the shoulder supporting hands on same plane. But is stack and tilt right shoulder does a different way. In TGM the idea is to put the right shoulder on plane. that plane is behind you not up high. In the backstroke the hands have been on the plane all the time, the shoulder is getting there, getting there. Now when the hands are right shoulder high both of then are joined together. Then you can take back further - that is fine. Then trace right down that base line. He showed a picture of Larry Nelson with his centered head at start down. There is a big element in the golf machine that says sit and tilt. Remember you put the shoulder on the plane and leave it there. When the weight goes left that tilts the spine. That allows you to leave it on the plane. It doesn't go back where it started from (address). That is flat shoulder turn 10-13-b. Establish head and hand position at fix then you come back to adjusted address. Now guess what? No bobbing required. He pointed out Larry Nelson picture - "that is all the tilt you need". Any mnore tilt than that will send you under plane. You see it everywhere - sit and tilt. NO! your shoulder was already on plane. Don't want to tilt under it. The proper move permits you to drive it at the ball - Destroy the ball with your right shoulder. So we have the shoulder turned back and that permits it to go at the ball rather than back to its address position. My notes of Lynn Blake October 2008 Cuscowilla

good stuff David....Im not discounting S&T and the steeper turn, it works for Charlie Wi, but Im not Charlie. I need a procedure that is repeatable, for some S&T may be just that, but I love the idea of being able to fire my on plane rt shoulder at the ball w/out having to drop the club back onto the elbow plane. A LOT of great players do/did make that shift, but Im just looking for solid ball striking w/out compensations, and it seems playing off the TSP for ME is the way to go....

That describes my feel.

In a previous sentence you stated "Homer said number one reasons golfers don't improve is right hip doesn't clear in start up".


Did he mean that the Right Hip blocked the Right Elbow and that golfers should move the right hip out of the way of the right elbow or was he saying that Golfers don't know how to get passed the Right Hip when using a Right Forearm Takeaway?

Best thread in a long time. Interesting question. I follow David Sandridge's thoughts explicitly regarding the right hip clearing on the backswing. I have tended to turn the right shoulder too flat. Clearing the right hip on the backswing while moving the left shoulder down puts me in the position I need to be at the top. It is rotated appearing, but only because of my spine angle at setup. The more you bend from the waist, the more rotated you look. I clear the right hip at startup, my hands move in and up on plane and the shoulders do what they do according to my hands. My hands do not control the hip clearing which may be why Homer focuses on the rt hip clearing as a separate movement from the hands. But, the shoulders go where the hands tell them. Set-up, clear right hip, move hands back in and up on plane and the shoulder ends up pretty good. The pics of Toms and Goosen are illustrative because Goosen bends over a little more and his face is angled more to the ground. Interesting to hear Yoda's take, considering his recent talk on hands controlled pivot.

So, failure to clear the Right Hip is a Pivot Controlled Hands problem? This? a cause of Downstroke Shoulder Turn "Spinout" (the Right Shoulder rotating outwards, above the Plane).

A plane angle running from the Base Line through the Right Shoulder when its Turned at Top when viewed from down the line. In other words the Right Shoulder lays on the same Inclined Plane Angle as the butt of the club (or the Hands or the #3 pp specifically). The move from Top for most shots, full shots anyways is a move of the Pivot , ground up, with no independent Arm movement. No hitting from the top like you would for a Full Sweep Release say where there is no Delay of Release. The period of Shoulder Acceleration. See the definition of Start Down.....dont have my book with me but its about the Right Shoulder.


You cant shift and still be zero shift.

I think the problem is that when I say Elbow Plane you instinctively think about a low Elbow Plane angle.........imagine there being a range of planes from low to fairly high that you could get your Right Forearm and shaft on. Imagine a toe down ,heal up in the air, high hands versions of the Elbow Plane. Using this definition of Elbow Plane, one of these " high" Elbow Planes is about the only way you can achieve zero shift while using a TSP angle at top....well you gotta use a "low" TSP to pull it off too actually. HENCE THE FLAT BACK move of the Right Shoulder in Startup.......I believe, might be wrong.

Definitions again. Change them and the meaning changes. Got to make sure people are using the same ones or the conversation goes wacky. Homer changed his definition of Elbow Plane and perhaps his opinion about it too. By some definitions, perhaps the common ones, zero shift along a single TSP and Elbow Plane Angle combo is not possible physically. Now if you bring a higher Elbow Plane into the picture .....it can be done.



The Right Shoulder only takes the Hands to the selected Release Point not all the way down plane and through the ball......which would be no Release , well of #4 angle anyways. Its pretty hard to get the Right Shoulder to go that far down plane and theres no need for it to do so, I dont believe as the Arms can , should accelerate away from the Shoulders. The Hands then continue the journey down plane while the right shoulder moves a little higher commonly.


The procedure would be to take your Hands Back, In and UP to your desired Plane Angle at Top and assuming its a TSP then you could allow your Pivot to pull your Right Shoulder down the Inclined Plane and know that it will also be taking the Hands , the #3 pp the entire sweetspot plane down plane too.....in Startdown ....only. The other procedure is the employment of a Shoulder Turn Throw whereby you actively throw your Right Shoulder at the the Plane Line in Startdown.

Startdown Waggles cover this move nicely. With or without the Shoulder Throw Release Trigger (which by the way can be used in combination with a Right Arm Throw (Hitting) or Left Wrist Throw (Swinging) or most other Throws for that matter.....except the Hands Throw maybe which is incompatible as you cant Delay Release and Full Sweep Release at the same time).

In theory yes but even Hogan double shifted Id say , although his Plane didnt shift that much in terms of degrees. His elbow plane and his TSP were pretty close together. Making his shifts less dangerous if plane shifting is hazardous as Homer suggested. Brian Gay is the same way to my mind, if he shifts its a baby one or ones.

Homer liked zero shift. It goes nicely with non manipulated , Pivot based strokes with CF doing its thing. But before you think he was all about shaft planes only , he did define Clubhead only planes with zero shift and shifts ........And is on record as saying that he would not change an accomplished player from multiple shifts to zero necessarily. I dont think he'd change Furyk shifts , personally. You wouldnt start a new golfer out that way but there's nothing wrong with it mechanically ......it gets the job done nicely, when its working. He wasnt "shaft plane or die" as some have characterized him. The Angle of Approach for instance is non planar in a shaft sense, its a clubhead only plane of motion.

Do you mean off plane or on plane but under Hogans sheet of glass?


Uh maybe I made this post a whole lot more complicated than it needed to be? And we havent even talked Rotated much or how you cant tilt the axis and still be Rotated ......


TSP's , Standard Shoulder Turn..........pure genius. I think, assuming I understand 'em.

Components gotta match up . . .

One thing to keep in mind is that you have LOTS OF FREEDOM OF MOTION in your shoulders THEMSELVES . . . mimic your address position but stick your arms out like a helicopter . . . hold your sternum or solarplexus or whatever that thing is as still as you can . . .don't let it turn. . . now move your arms like a helicopter clockwise like a backstroke . . . you gots lots of motion in them clavical thingies . . . now if you add a lil' bit of hip turn . . . straighten the right leg a lil' bit and bend the left knee a lil' bit . . . boooo yow . . . backswing . . . whuuuuuut. . . . grounded centered . . . in position.

This here is where the components gotta match up . . . you are exactly correct on your analysis here . . . HOGAN'S PANE OF GLASS WAS ABOUT THE ARMS NOT NOT NOT GOING ABOVE THE SHOULDER TURN PLANE . . .

Therefore you are gonna have a different look to the right elbow motion . . .

So the question becomes . . . WHY would Hogan prescribe this?

You know that clinic he did after the match against Snead .......he says something like "most people start with down with their shoulders in stead of the lower body and come over the top and hit the outside of the ball" with such distain. Maybe thats your answer? The proper Downswing Sequence and how it relates to hitting from the inside out.


Or how he illustrated his sheet of glass as pointing out to right field in Five Lessons. Maybe he just liked to come at the ball from the inside , the more the better? Even shifting down to the (true) Elbow Plane gets its more inside, more Out less Down to the clubhead orbit. The guy wore a hole in his trousers from his Right Elbow rubbing against his watch pocket. That face was wide open and the path was inside out prior to low point.....big time inside out. Absolutely no Steering in that swing, no Sir.

Question.......

So with the Hands above the Right Shoulder at top......youve got problems in that the shoulders will pull the hands out and over top of the plane in startdown.

But what if the Hands are under the Right Shoulder........like they are when Hogan or Sergio are mid vertical drop? A down plane move of the Right Shoulder will have a corresponding off/under plane move of the hands wont it? What are the implications to the direction of the Shoulder turn then?