D,

Please look at the picture of sergio at release from down the line . . . those alignments are PERFECT . .. The shaft is right up the plane of the right forearm . .. There's no way that those alignments are straight out of the textbook. He has satisfied the flying wedge alignments perfectly.

Hello all,

Just some thoughts on sequenced vs simultaneous release.

My understanding (was) that release motions are independent of hinge action or grip type.

Sequenced is sequenced because the swinger loads the left wrist mainly via centrifugal force, and also dumps it the same - so, the throwout causes the left wrist to uncock first (accumulator #2), then it is transferred to the rolling left wrist (accumulator #3). Of course, there is some overlap, but the main point is the left wrist uncocks first.

For simultaneous, the accumulators are being (and specifically the right elbow) are being release via right forearm thrust - triceps muscularly, hence, the simultaneous release - no true throwout. The uncock and roll occur at the same time.

Hope that made sense.

Good discussion....just wanted to throwout (no pun intended) my take.

Patrick

Dear Bucket,
The Clubshaft is On Plane. I agree. But it's too far Up Plane because his Right Wrist is Cocked. His impact needs some really critical timing. He has the talent and dedication and is able to make it work.
However, if he Leveled his Right Wrist, he could Horizonal hinge. Would he benefit? I'm not qualified to say. But Yoda did that for me and my accuracy is awesome. I can Draw, Fade or hit the ball Straight at will. Every time. My distances increased only slightly but my yardages are always the same. I no longer hit one drive 235 yards and one drive 245.
I always thought that I had a Sequenced Release. I didn't. But now I do. I hit 90% of the fairways at 265 yards Swinging out of my shoes. If I Cock my Right Wrist, I hit 50% of the fairways. Precision.

Executing the sequenced release
 

Daryl,
I was not being critical. I merely asked the question because I am interested in what Tiger does in his swing.

I don't know boss . . . I'm having a hard time with that right wrist being cocked . . . it's REALLY bent but I don't think cocked . . . that Right Forearm Flying Wedge is PICTURE PERFECT . . . if it was cocked it'd be all outta whack.

Can you post a picture of somebody that HAS a Level Right Wrist in your eyes?

These three cats look pretty similar . . .

Dear Mr. Bucket,

You’re just too much. I honestly look forward to meeting you. We’re going to have a blast playing golf together. We’ll be in the front cart, and have someone driving the Drink Cart close behind.

You’re going to get me in a lot of hot water for those pics. But, what the hell. I’ll bite. We’re among friends.

First of all, of the three golfers pictured, only the White haired guy with the blue shirt is going to Horizontal hinge from a Sequenced Release. The guy in the left picture wearing a white shirt and white cap, is Swinging with an Angle Hinge. The young pup in the picture below, is Swinging with an angled hinge.

The guy in the blue shirt is almost perfect. Obviously he is well schooled and trained in the art. His Right Wrist is only slightly Cocked which is probably only due to the tremendous stress he’s putting on his #3 pressure point forced on him by the pure power of his pivot but also because he's loading the secondary Lever through the Primary Lever. He would be better off just Loading the Secondary Lever, but he looks like he knows what he's doing. His Clubshaft is bent like a banana as he Straight Line Thrusts Downplane. His Right Knee remains bent allowing for more than adequate Hip Action which I’m sure is soon to follow. He must hit the ball a long way and straight.

The Guy in the White cap and shirt has obviously Cocked his Right Wrist. Unfortunately, his Clubshaft and Clubhead are lagging too far back and behind him. That’s too bad because when you Cock both Wrists that much, you’re forced to Simultaneous Release. He looks like he is about to Horizontal Hinge because he has loaded the Secondary Lever. That's interesting. A Simultaneous Release with the Secondary Lever Loaded and Horizontal Hinging. Or, a Sequenced Release with Angled Hinging. Wow. Thats going to take a lot of practice before he wins any money. Timing. His Pivot looks really nice but a little soft and mostly motion because he ran out of right leg and can’t supply a good deal of Hip Action. I think that if he really works hard, he can become a golfing great. But it will take a lot of practice to harness that swing and it depends on how well he can putt.

The Young pup in the lower picture has a similar situation to the guy in the white shirt. Notice that his Flat Left Wrist has his Clubface looking at the ball. An easy sign of Simultaneous Release brought about by Cocking both Wrists. His Clubshaft and Clubhead have lagged too far back and behind and he is also forced to Angle Hinge because you Cannot Uncock to Level and then immediately Roll the Right Wrist. BUT you can Uncock the Left Wrist and Roll a Level Right Wrist in sequence.

PS. Mr. Bucket. When we play Golf together, I would consider you a Southern Gentleman if at the end of our game, you would promptly pay me your losses, and pay with cash.:)

You have every right to be critical. Please be as critical as you can. If you have any doubts, you are being honest. It’s one of the many reasons this Website is so great.

One of Tigers greatest repeated comments about his swing is that he likes to take it back and keep it wide. I’ve heard him say it dozens of time. HK would say that Tiger keeps his Right Wrist Level during the Backswing.

D,

You are alright with me! Someday we shall tee it up together . . .

This one of the few times anybody's ever accused me of being a gentleman!

You are welcome in NC anytime . . . pack your Level Right Wrist and your runnin' shoes just incase of banjo music.

I am.......um........amazed.

Wow.

All three, to me, seem to be using Centrifugal Force....

just a guess....

I got more, its coming, trust me.

Patrick

All three are using CF.

Phillygolf,

I’m sorry. Except for truly looking forward to meeting Bucket and playing golf with him, that last post was just my wry and dry sense of humor. Bucket has a great sense of humor and a great wit and I was just trying to keep up with him. Also I won’t take money from him. But everything else was just Sunday Quarterbacking.

Hogan was a great Ball Striker and maybe in the top ten Golfers in the History of the game. Sergio is a remarkable young talent. He is one of the very few players I really enjoy watching play. Yoda is Masterful. His body will swing the club anyway his mind tells it to AND with all 24 components behaving themselves. Ben Hogan and Yoda would have been great friends.

One Truth:
When I see a picture of a Golfer at Release, and the Clubface is looking down at the Planeline, then I know he is using Simultaneous Release. Then, when I see the same Golfer use a Pitch Stroke (Elbow position at Release) then I know he is not Hitting. It’s simple.

One More Truth:
Most Pros cock both Wrists and use the muscles in their Forearms to HELP whack the ball. How much HELP depends on the Pro. Some more, some less. They know where impact is which means that they know where their hands, arms, body and Clubhead is at all times. Millions of swings and Millions of balls with Tons of Talent and remarkable Hand-eye coordination.

Another Truth:
If you get a Job at a Golf course, and play with the guys every day, and hit balls every day, and if you have a little talent and a little hand-eye coordination, then after two years you’ll be a scratch Golfer. If you have remarkable talent, then you may be able to play on the mini-tours.

One more thing:
There may be thousands of Golfers in the world that are better Ball Strikers and more knowledgeable about Golf Swing Mechanics than the Pros. Some of them participate on this website. I’m not one of them. The difference between them and the pros may be as little as one put per round.

Right Wrist
 

Daryl,

How difficult was it for you to get away from cocking the right wrist and how did you go about it? I've tried at time to focus on maintaining what I think is a "truly" level right wrist (I'm pretty sure I normally cock it a little bit) and it's amazing just how "frozen" the hands feels compared to my normal right hand action. At the same time I was always surprised at how far shots would still go when trying to keep that RW level. I think I've made so many swings in my golf career that I revert back to what "feels" like it will create more power (which I think is why many players cock the RW). The old "feel vs real" thing.

On a related note, can you "overbend" the right wrist?

CG

Yes . . . here in is where the answer lies . . . I believe

Daryl,

Question for you:

I totally agree that Sergio Garcia has unbelievable eye hand coordination . . . BUT I don't think it is necessarily manifested in his long game.

Do you really think with the kind of angles forces and speed he creates that he can control the all of that with his hands? Are his hands that good? Or could it be a combination of things?

Talk to me . . .

Yoda showed me in 10 seconds. Stationary head. I said to him: "My head is as stationary as a rock! and he said: No, but it's a lot like a rock! lol) As soon as he made me keep a stationary head (he yelled: Cover the BAll!) and turn my hands at Startup, my right wrist stopped Cocking as my Right Shoulder went back to the Plane (he also hit me in the head a few times to get it to sink in). Then when my Left Hand Uncocked a split second before impact, I felt my right wrist Roll (Swivel) into Imact for the first time in my life. My Left Wrist even arched because my hands were so far ahead of the ball at impact. It made a very different sound. We both grabbed a drink and went out and shot 2 over par.

Yoda needed the drink to recover from the first ten minutes of my lesson. I needed one to celebrate.

It's not his hands. Really, it's not his hands.
It's not hard for him to control. Simultaneous Release is simpler procedure if you cock both wrists. He has a very late release. He's extreme. CF and the Endless Belt Effect get the clubhead (and Clubshaft) to the ball perfectly every time. His rate of acceleration is awesome. Straight line delivery path.

I agree with you 100%. His hand Eye coordination is best displayed in his short game. No doubt about it. Thats true of every pro. They can do a lot of wrong but when they swing the club more slowly, their hand-eye coordination saves the day.

Yes you can and most TGM Golfers do. The Correct Bend of the Right Wrist is determined at Impact Fix. If you're a Hitter, then get that amount of Bend at Startup and Keep it there. If you're a swinger, then LOOK at the amount of Right Wrist Bend at Impact Fix, then call Ted or Lynn for a lesson.

practice waggle
 

Is it possible by practicing the "waggle" of a standard start-up to get the feel of how the right wrist bends and does not cock as the left hand turns and cocks. I have found this helpful by isolating the movement to develop the feel of maintaning a level right wrist.

I don't know. My Right Wrist only Bends when my Left Wrist Flattens. This only occurs after my Left Wrist Uncocks. Then my Left Wrist Flattens and my Right Wrist Bends.

I use a Stong Single Action Grip. Do This: Put you Palms together in front of you. Make all of the fingers and Thumbs touch eachother (Like you're praying). Then, hold your Right Wrist and Hand Still and only Cock your Left Wrist until the fingers of your Left Hand are at right angles (more like 45 degrees) to the fingers of your right hand. Now: Bend your Right Wrist. Your Right Wrist is Bent and Level. Your Left Wrist is Level and Flat. Impact.

Here is how to apply that to your Golfclub. When you hang from a chin-up bar, the bar is across your hands at the base of your fingers. Both Wrists are Cocked when you do a Chin-up. That's a good grip for a sledge hammer, but not a golfclub. Set the Golfclub Head on the floor. When you grip the club with the left hand the shaft crosses the fingers and palm at a very different angle than when doing a Chin-up. Thats good because your Left Wrist is at Level when the Golfclub Head is on the Ground. Open your left hand and look at that angle. Grip the Club with your Right Hand and use the same angle that your Left Hand uses.

Now when you Bend your Right Wrist your Left Wrist will Flatten. If you bend your right Elbow your Left Wrist can Cock and your Right Wrist can stay level. That is Single Action.

Arch = too much bend
 

On a related note, can you "overbend" the right wrist?

Overbent right wrist = arched left wrist

Do you mean: Is it ok to Arch the Left Wrist? Absolutely. Late Release, it will be Arched. The amount of Bend in the Right Wrist is determined by BAll Position, Amount of Right Elbow Bend and how far ahead of the ball your hands are at impact, given a stationary head. Not everyone who trys a late release will have an arched left wrist. If your rate of accelleration is great, then the clubhead will catch up before your hands get too far ahead. It's possible and desireable for those with a Late Release to have a Flat Left Wrist at Impact. That would always be my goal. If you Arch the Left Wrist you Deloft the Clubface.

Regarding the mittens
 

I was suggesting that the amount of right wrist bend is determined by what it takes to support a flat left wrist. Obviously ball position can change the amount of right wrist bend, but the left wrist is always ideally flat. As for having an arched left wrist (with accompaning increased right wrist bend) at impact...it can be useful if the push tendency is adjusted for.

Thus perhaps explaining why I hit it relatively "low". Of course I play in Texas, so that is somewhat necessary. :)

CG

VJ Trolio and Yoda said that the pros are playing with lower trajectories today than in previous times.

Hello Daryl,
Hope all is well.


Um, facing down the planeline, and you know its simulateous release? You sure? Really sure? The clubface alignment I believe, should not dictate, in any way, release motions. And please forgive me, I do have,nor have I read, TGM in over 2 years.

Release motions, from what I remember, are in respect to accumulators #2 and 3, and if I recall, Homer specifically mentions not to be distracted by clubface motion.

One step further.


In my opinion, most pro's I know do not cock their right wrist, an incredible observation from Homer. No doubt remarkable hand/eye.

I disagree. I can do anything with the best, baseball, etc etc. But I am not, and have not gotten to, and ALL of my friends (after a state championship baseball team) are not scratch. And, I hit as many balls as anyone for a 5 year period. Sorry, disagree.

We disagree on many points, which, does not mean I am right or you ar left......

Good conversation.

Take care.

Patrick

Dear Phillygolf,

Release Motions 4-D-0. Acc #2 is a Wrist Motion, #3 is Hand Motion. Sequencing the Uncocking of the Left Wrist (Wrist Motion) then Rolling the Clubface (Hands). Forgive me for stating the obvious, but if the Clubface is already square to the Plane Line (Facing the Ball during the Release) Then the Hands have been Rolled prior to (#3 before #2) Uncocking the Left Wrist. Possibly, your confusion comes from thinking that individual Wrist and hand motions and Pivot are the same thing. Allow me to explain. Stand erect with your right arm extended in front (palm facing the target and thumb pointed toward the Sky) of you at shoulder height and parallel to the ground. Move your arm and hand to the right until it is parallel to the base line of the inclined Plane. Your Hand is Turned because of the Pivot. Step 2, Stand erect with your right arm extended in front of you at shoulder height and parallel to the ground and Turn your Hand so that the Palm is facing up (Thumb is pointing Right). Move your arm and Hand to the right until it is parallel to the base line of the inclined plane. Your hand is Turned and “Turned”. Turned because the Pivot turned it and “Turned” because your hand rotated palm up. The first demonstration is what Hitters do, the second is what Swingers do (Standard Wrist Action). The Second way needs a Sequenced Release. The First example demonstrates that Pivot is Rolling the Hands while at the same Time (Simultaneously) the Left Wrist (and only the Left Wrist) is Uncocking.

I don’t know of any Pros that Keep their Right Wrist Level throughout the Swing. Who am I to say they are wrong? I’m not telling them how to earn a living. Please see JR1 Acquired Motion Video. Please notice that JR is hitting Beautiful and graceful pitch shots with only a five yard spread at 75 yards. Awesome for sure. He Cocks his Right Wrist on every shot. I’m not saying he should change. However, if you compare the trajectory of each shot, each shot is slightly different and some of them very different. But the result is still extremely impressive. He is using hand-eye coordination and Timing the Impact. Highly developed. His apparent Roll after Impact is due to the Pivot. JR is one of the finest Golfers in the World and to ever play the game.

My wife has dragged me around the Country on weekend trips for twenty-Five years. That means that I arrive at the Golf courses at 6:00 am with no-one to play with. Invariably, someone in the Proshop or bag room agrees to play with me. Almost all of the time, after the round, the conversation goes like this “How long have you been a scratch Golfer?”, he replies “before I started working here, I couldn’t play very well, but I go out with the guys almost every day after work and I hit balls all the time and I’ve gotten really better.” I reply “Oh, how long have you worked here?” and he replies, “two years” and I reply “Oh”. I should write a book on the subject but it would only be one page long. :crybaby:

Yoda, I promise not to make an issue of this during the next Seminar. I’ll shut up. I won’t be argumentative. You have the floor. It’s your Seminar. :)

So maybe the question should be . . . if the pros do in fact cock their right wrists and some do . . . what other components in the stroke allow them to get away with it?

Let's Go!
 

Sweet! Another Bucket and Daryl "dust-up!" :laughing9 I have learned a great deal from the "dialogue" the two of you have shared:salut: Can't make an omelette without breaking (non-automatic hatching?) a few eggs!

I agree
 

Daryl,

I qualify under the "two year rule." I had absolutely no clue what I was doing but I had time and enthusiasm. I also lived in the southern hemisphere and had great weather. Unless you live in S. Cal, Florida, or Arizona you are a part-timer! I am watching a wintery-mix fall as we speak:sad2: I was pretty decent at raquet sports, particularly squash (raquet ball without the ball on speed!) My handicap tumbled along with a lot of my like-minded-golf-obsessed buddies. I too cocked both wrists! During start down the counter clockwise motion in order to go clock-wise ala Bobby Jones was ALL eye-hand and a healthy dose of ignorance!

One of the reasons that people don't improve much is that it takes April-May just to thaw out...and their lack of TGM know how!

Cold in Oklahoma (where the wind does its thing using a straight line delivery path down the plane!)

First, I'd like to thank Okie for his support. Okie; thank you. Our experiences must be similar.

Mr. Bucket,

Think outside the box. They don't get away with it. The results of their tournaments don't look any different than the results of any weekly foursome all around the country. It's a crapshoot. Almost anyone of them can win at anytime. Look at their Fairways and G.I.R. Good but on the average nothing to write home about, but some weeks exceptional and others less than average.

Mr. Bucket, if you and I grabbed some Kentucky Fry and played a 5000 yard course, we should hit every fairway and 95% of the greens. You would think that a guy that does it for a living and gets free drinks, equipment, and stretching and massage therapy could do it regularly on a 7000 yard course. My, my? Maybe they aren’t getting away with anything.

The Truth may be (as if they knew any better), that they prefer cocking both Wrists and using their forearms to unload into the ball with simultaneous release, angled hinging and controlled Clubhead Throw-away. Perhaps they think that this procedure with hand-eye coordination and perseverance and torturously hard work will win out in the end. So far it has.

But what the hell do I know anyway? Love ya man. :)

I don't know man . . . . let's reverse that a lil' bit . . . look at Sergio's scoring average it's like 69. On LONG courses with HARD pins. These guys are Sooooooooooooooo good. I know a cat that is a GREAT player. Played in college. Good golf swing . . . so good that he was on a TV commercial.

The Nationwide Tour has an event at his home course every year. He's played in the Pro Am several times. I asked him "What's the difference in their game and yours?" He said, "It's like the difference between me and a 10 handicapper." Now again this guy is GOOD . . . he's plus. So he can play golf. And he's like a 10 compared to dudes that arent' even IN THE BIG LEAGUES.

So maybe your example should be reversed . . . if me and you eat chicken and go play their 7000 yard course and the Pro eats chicken and goes and plays a 5000 yard course . . . what happens????

We had the Tarheel Tour at my home course. That Tommy 2 Gloves played . . . he shot a 61. Heck I shoot 61 on my course everytime I tee it up . . . after about 12 holes.

Point being . . . these guys that you speak of are in a different galaxy than us.

Why is that???

My answer is

A. THEY ARE TECHICIANS . . . THERE TECHNIQUE IS THE BEST . . . COCKED WRIST OR NOT COCKED.

B. They have talent.

I mean look at Justin Leonard. They measured that cat's driver swing speed. It was like 107. I can scare 107. But I can't scare Justin Leonard on no 5000 yard course or much less a 7000 yard course.

The reason these guys are good is because the have good alignments . . . PERIOD.

Dear Mr. Bucket,
I sincerely agree with you. My hat is off to you for your insightful summary.
My comment about you and I hitting so many fairways and greens on a 5000 yard course may have been a little exaggerated but I figured we could use 3 woods and wedges. That’s only a 275 yards per hole average and I thought that it would be equivalent to a pro playing on 7000 yards. They practice more than us. Please reconsider your comment. I'm sure we could whip any two of them if we played from 5000 and they played from 7000. I'll bet a piece of chicken on it.

Ya know, it would make for very good TV ratings. Better than "The Big Break"! Each week we could feature a new couple of Pros (We'll get the ones that didn't make the cut that weekend). We'll have to come up with a name for the show!!!!!! If they win, then their money goes to Charity, if we win, the crowd gets a Chicken Dinner too!!!

Could you imagine how funny that show could be. I bet Nike would sponsor it. And KFC for sure and a beer company.

I don't know! Would it be our best ball? If it's mono y mono . . . I'd need some strokes I gotta think.

I'll go play my course from the Bagger tees (woops I mean Chick Tees) and report back. I bet I can't break par. My lowest round ever is 73.

You seem a bit more refined than me . . . I doubt Nike'd do much with me . . . they don't make no husky sized pants and nobody'd want to see me in one of them tight stretchy shirts like Tiger sports. There'd be a whole lotta shakin' goin' on.

I may could get a hook up from Converse or Dickies or GrrrrAnimals something like that.

We'll do fine. Maybe we can get Ted and Yoda on the bags just to be sure. Nike makes all sizes. It's not a beauty contest, low score wins. We'll put it in the rules.

I think they'd beat us like we owed 'em money.

Ok. How about we get two Yankee Pro golfers? Would you do it then?:)

How about Yankee Pro Golfers that are retiring from the Senior Tour?

We'd get beat like the base drum on the Led Zepplin reunion tour.

A little insight
 

I'm with Daryl and Bucket on this one.

Daryl 1. Best greens in reg for the year was 71%. "Moe, who has the best swing on tour?" "Well, there aren't any are there," Moe Norman. The big boys rarely hit every green for the day. The rank and file of the tour chase their balls rather than telling them where to go. If you can handle the heat, playing good 2 or 3 weeks a year is enough to keep your card. They don't get payed for GIR. It's a math contest.

Bucket 1. Alignments? These guys are like infielders who zip the ball across the diamond moving away from the target and off the wrong foot. TALENT.

Bucket 2. I have not seen the bucket play...but I'm not taking him from any tee against two tour players from any tee. (Well...there might be a bet in there somehow).

Daryl 2. When ever I am asked about how to get good at golf, the answer no one wants to hear is, "Quit your job and play against better players than you for more money than you can afford to bet." You'll either get better fast or quit.

Back to the match. I've wagered more than a few dollars against a PGA Tour winner getting 2 a side. The guy played like Tiger Woods at Augusta down the stretch every time I had him down. I didn't lose every time, just nearly. You would have a better chance beating one of them on an off day than hoping they both were off. It would be a stroll in the park for them pressure wise, and maybe the most pressure you have ever felt on the course.

Bucket says Sergio averages 69. Check the slope. Most of the guys are plus 6. Let me know when you get to plus 6 at 5000 yards.

If we can get those tees spread out enough (I fly it right around 260 and my boy hits it an easy 50 by me) and the fairways grown over and the sand really soft and the greens really slow, bumpy, and grainy....take all the skill out of it.....we might find a bet.

I'm confident after being at Brian Gay's house that I could SMOKE him in a dougnut eatin' contest. That's the only time I'd bet for me in anything against a Tour Player. I think I could maybe get a push against Tom Kite in basketball.

Oh . . . and I think I could get my pants on and shoes tied faster than Calc.

Darly,

Great post!

However....is not 4-D-0, per TGM ( and I could be wrong - again - have no book, etc) Release Motions - meaning, accumulator #2 and #3?

If so, I do not believe (could be wrong), Homer never refers to clubface in this regard.

Again, going on memory, but....clubface is irrelevant.

Ok, now.....I dont know about turned, not turned, etc.

But...

Sequenced release occurs because of centrifugal force.

Simultaneous as a result of thrust.

So - please, lets forget about clubface, or pivot driven, etc.

......

Point is, sequenced and simultaneous are different. Why?

Cent force and thrust.

Love the enthusiasm,

but my friend,

no confusion here.

Patrick