I kinda like the unrelated jibber jabber and if you pay attention, you may just find some related jibber jabber that may work for someone on the forum. Remember that you may speak your opinion of the so called jibber jabber, but don't paint everyone with a broad brush. I have been to some very serious forums and they don't seem to last very long, people lose interest without some entertainment. Now I have also been to some forums that provide much entertainment without any of the content that bucket and "o" provide. I personally think they are a very valuable asset to this forum. Please don't tell them I said that!!!

I personally love your posts with regard to TT. I love that you have generously provided materials from such a great teacher, but we should all be open to differing ideas and procedures without getting upset at another's views!!

todd

Not one to fight...but!
 

Sorry...I can't resist!

1) I love the TT "bone of contention" it challenges what we think v. what we know.
2) A forum with no psychological air (humor) is generally short lived. Why? No one cares about it beyond what they can siphon from it. I have noticed a lot of lurkers on the member's list. My conscience forced me to post. My contributions are not sufficient payment (in a recognizable or desirable currency!)...but Yoda deserves that at the very least.
3) There is not such thing as sophisticated humor. I don't do vulgar...carte blanche for the rest. If it were say...me...posting one juvenile tirade after the next I would agree with you...but it is guys that have given us both a few laughs as well as a great deal of substance.
4) Ferreting through the junior high antics is a small price to pay, don't you think?
5) I do not have many faces to match to names, but I do have a few marginal personalities earmarked! We seldom learn from strangers. Relationship is the conduit of learning. I respect TT because he obviously understood that, as you well know.

6) I value Delaware Golf's contribution to this...the BEST site in golfdom.

DISCLAIMER: I have been advised from legal counsel and my cognitive therapist that reading Bucket and Mike O posts (the puerile variety) will detrimentally impact my intelligence quotient.

"Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!" --Jan Brady

Easy boys
 

Easy boys.

Settle down and play nice.

Mom

Back to Regular Progamming
 

Upp,
I think we're just about back to regular programming!:) Onward we go!

Help
 

Mike,

Bucket is wearing me down and out with on the Pivot Alignment thread.

I would like your assistance, please! Thank you.

Respectfully,

UPP

Have no clue what you're talking about...

Again....TGM....Whipcracking 9-2 (reference the #6 DVD of the new Tomasello video series). 6-B-2-0 The Second Power Accumulator....muscles of both forearms....are available to actuate this Assembly. "Homer Kelley".

I work for Boeing as did Homer.....we do lots of testing. No data probably means exactly that...no 3-D technology test of a forearm type swing.

You all might be disappointed.....on the new DVD series, Tomasello still holds firmly that a swing that starts with the lower body is not desirable. Why might you ask....more potential for error. Tomasello even references Jack Nicklaus as hitting bad shots due to a lower body swing.

I recommend all of the doubters attempt to get a copy of the #6, #9 and #10 DVD's there is some really good stuff on there....Tomasello talking about the skins game and the players putting their own money on the line is classic...now, I'll listen to something like that....good story telling and humorous.


I'm done...

Back to regular programming...


DG

There are basically two claims here
1. There is too much jibber jabber
2. We need jibber jabber.
The answer lies somewhere in between. To appeal to the majority we need a balance of jibber jabber and more serious content. As human nature runs true to form, people will differ as to where the balance point should be. However if the pendulum swings too far one way or the other over the bell curve, it will effect a greater number of members and more will be dissatisfied.

Personally, I prefer the more serious content and find irrelevant posts time consuming (Time and its tyranny: Nobody has enough; everybody has all there is. Yoda) but realize this is a price that must be paid in this forum - which does not mean I don’t enjoy the occasional belly laughs which proliferate here.

Balance – we need balance.

If he starts down by pulling the Arms, then is he bracing the turn with the right leg as a backstop? :) I sure he has too. There is a discussion in another thread about Left Leg Vs. Right Leg. I'm on the side of the Right Leg. I think that almost all are. That would be interesting because IMHO you would brace with your Right Leg before the Turning Motion just as one would do in a Non-Pivot Stroke.

Which DVD is this information on?

3:20 on disk #9,

'the Shoulders respond to the Hips in both directions'. He didn't say Always.

What guarantee will we have for a motionless head?
Keep the Knee Bend and Waist Bend. I agree.

Pivot is 90% of the Swing. Clear the Hips. In Both Directions. I agree.

Power is Zone 2. "Left Wrist is controlled by the Right Wrist and Right Forearm." I agree. No one Else seems to.

"All balls are played just behind Low Point". I agree.

There is a very interesting notion he made. That 'Hip Action (boosts) (my word) the #4 Accumulator. And that their can be a 4 Barrel Swinger who would use a Right Arm (Hard) Slapping Motion at the Bottom of the Swing. I got the idea that he meant that a 4 Barrel Swinger replaces Hip action with Right Arm Action. It seems Plausible.

doubter here...
 

Until Boeing opens a bio-mechanics lab, these things will be left to us to decipher.

Firstly, I think I've seen you use this Whipcracking reference in other posts. If you want to continue using the reference, I think you should use the words that follow in parentheses and refer to the Whipcracking as DRAG LOADING as Homer did. Seemingly, this would be an important, but convenient, thing to leave out.

Secondly, you get so hung up on what Tommy said, so I'm going to get hung up on a little bit of Homer.

6-B-2-0....It’s the true Velocity Accumulator because of the shortness of its travel time (during a Maximum Delay Release). Centrifugal Force, Accumulator #1, the muscles of both forearms, any – or all – are available to actuate this Assembly.

It seems that the release was Delayed, and how did it get to release? Yes, the Pivot. THEN the muscles of both forearms could actuate the Assembly.

6-B-4-A MAXIMUM POWER is obtained by using maximum On Plane Shoulder Turn Thrust against Pressure Point #4 per 7-19, and maximum Swing Radius (6-B-0).

Homer must have forgotten to include those Magical Forearms in the above passage. Maybe it will be in the 8th edition.

6-K-0 PIVOT STROKE DELIVERY In a “Pivot Stroke” the Power Package is held in a fixed relationship with the Body Turn and no independent Arm motion occurs until – or unless – the requirements of the selected Pivot are met. Then Arm Motion, independently or not, Continues Delivery per 10-19 until the selected Trigger occurs (10-20).

6-M-1 DOWNSTROKE SEQUENCE The Downstroke sequence of the Stroke Components is dictated essentially by Centrifugal Force; "Overtaking" by a Lagging Component ends at the instant it achieves an “In-Line” position with its immediately preceding Component.

Centers and Accumulators can be sequenced, overlapped, omitted, emphasized, triggered, and timed as the players understanding and skill permit. But the Club’s Swing Radius (6-B-0) ends at the “non-lagging” Component nearest to the Clubhead. The “Centers” of the Stroke start with the Feet or the employed Component nearest to the feet in the following order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock and/or Left Hand Rotation. For maximum Power, the position of must be taken that will allow Delay of the Release until all Components, except the Right Foot and Right Shoulder, have reached, or passed the Line-of-Site-to-the-Ball per 6-B-1-C. Then the Accumulators must move very rapidly toward their “In-Line” Position. But none should actually arrive (lose all their Lag and Drag until well after Impact. Also see 6-H-0.

Power Accumulators Release sequence is #4, #1, #2, #3 – regardless of which ones are being employed. Any Accumulator number may overlap or replace its preceding number but cannot precede it. Increase Overlap to increase THRUST – decrease Overlap to increase Velocity.

So, it seems that #2 cannot precede #4. Although we could contact TGM, LLC and have them strike 6-K-0 and 6-M-1 from the book and replace it with what Tommy said.

Lastly, I have friends in high places that would LOVE to get your TT forearm stroke on 3-D motion analysis to see the speed that's produced. And, we can make that happen.

Tommy failed to connect the dots on this subject and we have to accept that and move on...

New DVD's have not arrived here yet but does he contradict anything in the Australian videos for example during Tomasello’s demonstration on the pivot he says.
“Since we don’t have any arms to start the down swing – lower your right shoulder. When you lower your right shoulder watch how your left hip slides laterally towards the target without you attempting to do anything to it.”
In the Arms video he says : ”The first thing to do is connect. Now what will happen is your left hip will respond to this motion by starting to move out of the way.”

This is reminiscent of Harvey Penick’s “Magic move” “ To start your downswing, let your weight shift to your left foot while bringing your right elbow back down to your body. This is one move, not two”

Are they both saying the same thing? i.e. when you lower your right shoulder does that bring your right elbow back to your body thus causing your left hip to slide laterally which shifts your weight to your left foot. All of which is accomplished as one move?

Is this simply two perspectives of the one action and is he consistent in his new tapes?

Ted,

Ask Lynn to make you a copy of the new Tomasello DVDs, go through them two or three times....then we'll talk. Just quoting passages from the book...for me it's not enough. Listen to Tommy talk about TGM...this new set of DVDs has Tommy in rare form (pro to pro level instead of pro to amatuer student level). With somebody at your level of understanding of TGM it's definitely worth watching. Trust me...Tommy had it down and then some....I don't know anybody who was in more contact with Homer than Tommy (especially at the end)....maybe Ben Doyle....maybe some local pros who lived near Homer. But, I don't know anyone who had the TGM school concept together like Tommy....no one.

Sure you can tape my swing....it will have to be in late June or July at the earliest. I'm preparing for a CFA exam (Chartered Financial Analyst) (no time for golf)....ask Lynn, he knows about the CFA, it's like preparing for Tour school, maybe worse!!!

Ted....in some of your comments above....I know you don't understand what Tommy taught...I think it's because you don't have a full handle on swinging. That's ok....please get a copy of the Tomasello DVDs...you will definitely benefit from it. Tommy was in a different league than most instructors...these videos demonstrate it.

Dave "DG"

Lucky Tommy
 

Maybe Tommy ditched school the day Homer was teaching "Power Release Accumulator Sequence". The topic does sound kind of scary. And he does have that "bad boy" type image...all that smoking and cussing and use of four letter words. Then he got lucky and it wasn't a question on the final exam.:)

You're getting confused with a drill with the right shoulder and a golf swing with a Shoulder Turn Throw. Tommy taught both. That should be cleared up with the new DVDs.

DG

Are the inherent principles mutually exclusive?

Yes, TT is consistent and adament about the right shoulder lowering in getting the right elbow down in front of the right hip in the new DVDs.
Nothing inconsistent that I noted with the Australian series. But I have only watched about 25% of the content. He also said the shoulder move is not the only way to do it, but it is a move that can be consciously triggered. He seemed to have liked teaching the swinging motion this way, but he kept repeating "There are other ways to do it!"

I hope this tides you over till you can judge for yourself!

UPP in cold Ohio

Seek and you shall find
 

I think you would gain more by finding the answer in the new DVDs rather than me just telling you.

DG

The bottom line is the right shoulder has to move on plane in the downswing...whether you're using the arms to start the club down or if you use a shoulder turn throw trigger.

DG

full handle on mis-information
 

No need. I got them the same time as everyone else, and I paid full price to help with the costs.

I know that it's unreasonable to confuse the issue with the facts.

Come on, DG! That's rich! :laughing9 :laughing9 I have Swingers that have won at all levels, juniors, Tour, etc. It must be because of my confusion with Swinging. Lynn's really had some trouble getting people to Swing, too. :rolleyes: In almost 100 hours of Homer audio, he failed to mention the TT Magic and the forearms starting the Downstroke. I'm sure it was just an oversight. :eyes:

I know the moment Homer died, that Tommy was in a rant about Hitting. So, it sounded as if he had no "handle" on Hitting.

A swinger's 2 cents
 

I have watched the TT videos on this site and they, like so many other pieces from various sites, have helped in my understanding of TGM. I only know what someone says by what they write or put up in video form.

Homer was very clear with what he wrote and said, as I am sure TT was. The greatest teachers in the world usually find a pattern they like and stick with it. Many of them use "feel" as their framework, not mechanics.

As a swinger I often use the "feel" of my arms to start the downstroke. I have even used and early uncocking of my wrists to start the downstroke. Some days I feel like a hitter (yes Ted) and sometimes a pure swing. The trick is to use our TGM knowlege to let the mechanics produce a feel that is workable for that day.

The key is the proper sequencing. This does not mean the sequencing of the release, but more the coordinated motion of the pivot components as to not disrupt the power package delivery. My pivot will tend to be to strong and uncoordinated so i must use a "zero Pivot feel" to get my rhythm back. Does this mean that my arms actually start the downswing, NO!!!!! This simply means that I have used my educated hands to control my pivot period.

In one of TT's videos he said to start the arms and watch the legs get out of the way. I agree, but only to the point that his pivot was already coordinated. I can start my arms and my legs will do nothing IF I tell them to do nothing.

The swing is to quick to get the proper feel of what is actually happening. 3-D proves this point. My hips fire very fast when I am on my knees and I feel like there is no motion at all.

Let's all agree that Ted and Lynn are very smart dudes. Let's also agree that TT, Delaware Golf, and even Brian Manzella are very smart dudes. Let's all agree that Homer was smarter than all of us and He is proven daily with the best technology. We can split hairs if we like, but in the end What do we do to improve the everyday golfer?

I choose not to post much because I am not very smart and I do not want to come across as ignorant. I can't site the book verbatim like many of you, and I wish I could. I know how to use the book for my benefit and for my students'. I KNOW THAT THE MECHANICS PRODUCE FEEL AND FEEL REPRODUCES MECHANICS. The 3-D stuff is like video, it can support or destroy anything. Take a person like me and tell me to work my hips faster and I am dead. However, use that information to expain to me the proper sequence of the kinetic linking, I can and will find my own way to get it done with my feel.

I know Ted is correct because he is quoting Homer. I also know that TT is correct because he had success with many players. I just want to learn. So let's quit all the BITCHING!

Do not get the little travelocity guy mad folks!!!

I have to agree with Jeff in the fact that more arguements are made on feel than anything else in golfdom. Learn the mechanics, then learn your feel from those mechanics. Look, Look, Look, and hope you know what your looking for!!!


todd

Beware of the trademark police!:naughty:

I am still waiting for the dvd´s, they will be delivered any day now. This will be interesting, especially after reading all positive post about it.

2 things come to my mind;

1/ In another thread I posted that THE MAN to thank at present time is Mr. Blake!!

His generousity to accept video of other TGM-interpreters on "The Gallery" is remarkable. Name any other site-owner that would do the same.........

2/ I dont know if you have heard the joke about the french prostitute, where the punch line is " I can understand the situation but not the problem?"

I ask you gents the same - WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

TT, Mr. Doyle, Mr. Tomasello, Mr. Fort, Mr. Blake....well whichever AI you could think of, no matter if they did meet Mr. Kelley or not, has all one thing in common......

To get the student to CONTROLL THE 3 FUNCTIONS!!

How ?

It´s up to the AI.

Agreed!!
 

GREAT POST!! My feelings exactly!

E.

Ditto:) :)

Agree with almost everything
 

I agree with everything in golfgnome's post except the above!

You have no idea how much benefit there is from your insight not only as an instructor but as a player! :salut:

CG

Kinesthetic Patterns
 

Just great, Jeff. Thanks.

:salut:

what to do?
 

Give them a Tour caliber Pivot like you have.

Great post; well said!

please send me
 

Hello to all

whomever as not received their tapes as of yet please email me.......................hjacknicklaus@gmail.com

i want to check on them immediately

also please send me your real name and address

if you were not part of first group

please do not answer this email

as soon as i get 9......i will ask for payment for second chance edition

thankyou

Howard

I think Amencorner hit the nail on the head by calling TGM instructors; "TGM interpreters". That is exactly what this video series is: Tomasello's interpretaion of TGM.

I do have a question though; in video 5 or 6 where he is talking about power accumulators. He says accumulator #3 is a funtion of the straightening right arm. One of the students says: "wasn't the right arm accumulator #1? To which he replies: "it's the right arm that drives #3." But wouldn't a person with only his left arm still have acc. #3? Am I missing something here?

Closing the Door
 

Via Centrifugal Force or Muscular Thrust, the Right Elbow drives the Left Arm (through Pressure Point #1) and the Clubshaft (through Pressure Point #3).

So . . .

The Right Arm closes the 'gate', i.e., the Lever Assembly (the Left Arm and Club) swinging about its Left Shoulder Center.

If, in an amputee situation, the Right Arm is unavailable, then only Centrifugal Force (generated by the Body Rotor and the Left Arm's 'blast off' by the Pivot) can drive the Lever Assembly (with or without its #3 Angle) through Impact.

:)

ahh, light bulb moment. Swingers with a deep Pitch Elbow location don't have the same amount of right forearm 'corkscrew' effect that a Punch Elbow location provides.

Pitch Elbow and the Turned Right Wrist
 

Actually, they have more.

:)

From the Swinger's Pitch Elbow ('down and in the front') and with the Right Wrist Bent and palm 'up' to Plane, the Right Forearm Flying Wedge will have further to Rotate ('corkscrew' to its On Plane Finish Swivel Condition) than with the Punch Basic Stroke (Elbow at the side) and the Wrists vertical to the Plane.

Economy of motion
 

One less thing for hitters to concern themselves with! I feel the pull...er...push of muscular thrust!

Thank you Mr. Blake for answering my question. That is what I love about this site; open discussion and clear answers, no my way or the highway type attitude.

Delawaregolf: I think I owe you an apology, It seems like forever you have been talking about Tomasello teaching or at least having the notes from the 7th edition all the way back then. I never really bought into that for some reason, I don't really know why. Well I just watched the first half of video 7 tonight and low and behold Tomasello mentions one of the changes to be made in the swinging pattern for the 7th edition, you were right.

For anyone on the fence about these DVD's, don't be, they are great and packed full of info. I have a tough time getting through them because every 20 min I am pausing the video to pick up a club and take a few swings.

Excellent....yes, when I studied with Tommy (10/1993)....sitting at his desk discussing how/why the number of pages of TGM had grown from approximately 140 pages in the 1st edition to the 240 pages in the 6th edition....Tommy said, I have a copy of the 7th edition too. Trying to simplify TGM took a more detailed explanation. Frickin hundred pages more!!!

DG

Don't agree...I believe Tommy was dependent on Homer's explanation and not teaching from his own interpretation. No WAY. In no way did I or do I feel today that Tommy was putting his own spin on TGM.

You won't hear from me until late Sunday....off with my babe to Atlantic City.

DG

teaching the disabled
 

I've seen almost everything.

One of my students is a double amputee (both legs from the knee down). Yoda has seen him in action, and had no idea that he was missing both legs, since he was busting drives about 240 yards.

Another student had polio as a child. He's left handed, as his right arm is about six inches shorter than his left. So, I made him a club that was six inches longer than standard and had two grips. It looks like a hockey stick. He's remarkable and has the greatest time playing golf with his sons. His youngest son is one of my rising stars.

I’ve had two guys that play with one arm. The first suffered a stroke, and his right side of his body was paralyzed. He played golf right handed, but his left arm was the only one that worked. He regained some mobility in the right leg and could walk with a brace. But, he wore a wind breaker, everyday, that had holes cut in the pockets. He would slide his right arm in the pockets, wearing it like a sling. He hit the ball perfectly straight, but never hit it very far. He added distance by shortening the release interval, but it's weaker than having the trail arm to use.

My most recent student has finished second in the National Amputee Championship. He's missing the entire left arm and plays right handed. He generates plenty of clubhead speed, but suffers when his Start Down is too fast. He loses the ability to control the clubface as soon as he gets fast.

The guys are a lot of fun, and everyone has a great sense of humor. I heard one of the contestants was asked by a reporter at the National Championship, "what's the best way to get into the National Amputee Championship?" The man was missing an arm. And, he said with an English accent and a very dry wit, "purchase a motor bike." :laughing9