Decisions, decisions...
 

Paul,

It is a game of options. Try both to see which one works best for you and you get the most enjoyment. My father who is now 73 carded a 72 two weeks ago. When I asked him which procedure he used he said Swinging. The year before when he won his club championship, he used a Hitting procedure. It is all about what works best for you.

If you are neither strong or quick, try Swinging first. Momemtum Transfer can be a beautiful thing. Whatever procedure you adopt, you have come to the right place to discover what works best for you.

I agree- Swing. Whip that clubhead into a flat left wrist, then swivel But if the ball doesn't stay on the fairways (known to happen), it doesn't take much muscle to move 1.62 oz of space age rubber with a 200- 300 gram hi tech metal clubface either.

Push or pull?
 

Do they (or You) push or pull?

You are a "hitter", if they push, and a "swinger", if they pull.

what if you feel like you're pushing but you're actually pulling? Or feel like pulling but actually pushing? Or feel like pulling but actually doing both pushing and pulling?

We Understand . . .
 

Patient: Doc, I've got a problem.

Psychiatrist: Tell me about it.

Patient: One night I dream I'm a wigwam . . .

Psychiatrist: :think:

Patient: . . . And the next night, I dream I'm a teepee.

Psychiatist: I know your problem . . .

Patient: :question:

Psychiatrist: You're two tents.

:confused1

I am NO expert, but here is my understanding of it. Hitters use the right arm (right handed) to push the handle of the club down thru impact. Swingers use the right shoulder to almost 'throw' the club down from the top of swing. The physical exerction of the right arm straightening is hitting. Everything else is swinging. Most of us who are just learning this stuff probably have a combination of both in our swings.

No- be careful with this. Forget about the club. Hit the ball with your hands. The right shoulder thrust of the startdown delivers the hands- not the club. The club should be far behind the body and the hands until impact.

I only knew it .. until I tried both ..I think another way to look at it ..

The distinctive difference is loading the whole shaft, like we are trying to swing against the whole shaft for hitting . so it tend to roll pretty early , ie a sweep and a paddle wheel.

and for swinging, moving the shaft like a javelin . and at release point will start the Overturn and the right arm start to "push" then overtakes the left arm and club switches end.. feel very much in sequence.

So there is actually a PULL and PUSH part in swinging and pushing..eg, for hitting there The pivot lag will transport the power package... by .. pulling.

The left side can only Pull, the right can push or pull.

Therefore how the shaft is being "treated" is the determining factor if hitting or swinging.


maybe the reason why Ben Hogan wants 3 right arms still for swinging..

3 Hands = Lag Pressure
 

Ben wanted three right hands because ideally he wanted more pivot speed which was ultimately sensed by the right hand as lag pressure.

If you truly know hitting and truly know swinging, the lag pressure is similar, but the effort in creating the lag pressure are worlds apart.

In Hitting, there is no pivot pull except in start down for a 4-barrel stroke. Once start down is completed, that's it for the pivot except to passively support the rest of the motion.

In Swinging, there is no right triceps thrust except for extensor action which is essential for maintaining the power package structure. So besides extensor action even in the most powerful flywheels, the right triceps duty is to maintain the structure so it doesn't break down (quit) under the forces of centrifugal pull, increasing lag pressure, and ball compression. The right arm may feel active, and it is to a certain degree, but it is passively supporting the motion; i.e. it isn't driving the motion except for a true right arm swing.

Arm Power
 

Ben Hogan has written (and demonstrated on film http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0) that he keyed on the Hips to begin his Downstroke.

"This is the first movement . . . there!"

However, he correctly viewed this Hip Turn (and its Action) as means to an end and not the end in itself.

"Then . . . you release at the bottom."

Rewinding in TGM-speak:

However, he correctly viewed this Hip Turn (10-14-A/Standard/Free Turn with a Weight Shift in both directions) and its Action (10-15-B/Delayed/Shoulders lead back; Hips lead down) as means (Right Shoulder Acceleration / 8-7) to an end (Hand Acceleration / 8-8; Clubhead Acceleration / 8-9); and ultimately, Ball Acceleration / 8-10); and not the end in itself.

The Body (Zone 1 / Pivot) and the Arms (Zone 2 / Power) are allies in the war against Clubhead Inertia, but they have different assignments. The Body serves as the Axis of the Centrifugal Motion, and in the initial stages of the Downstroke, Transports and Accelerates the Arms. Ultimately, though, it is the Arms that deliver the real Power.

In simple, the long hitters have the God-given ability to swing their Arms very fast. And the faster the intended Arm Swing, the faster must be the enabling Pivot. Ben Hogan possessed these twin capabilities, and as a result, even at 130 pounds, he was lightning fast through the hitting area and extremely long. In his book, Golf Secrets Exposed, here's what Bill Mehlhorn had to say about Hogan's arm swing:

"I played a round with him when he was first starting out and talked to him and said, 'No matter what you hear on the tour, don't let anybody ever change your arm swing.' He had the best arm swing of anybody playing. He's never changed it."

At Start Down, said Hogan in Five Lessons:

"Turn your hips back to the left. There must be enough lateral motion to transfer the weight to the left foot."

"The movement of the hips inaugurates a whole chain of actions."

This simultaneous 'turn and lateral motion' -- more definitively, Homer Kelley's 'slide with delayed turn' (10-14-B) http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...ben_hogan2.mpg) -- 'tilts the Axis' (the spine per 7-12 and 7-14) and enables the Right Shoulder to remain On Plane (10-13-D).

After that, maximum distance demands a fast arm swing. Again quoting Hogan: ". . . I think of only two things: starting the hips back and then hitting just as hard as I can with the upper part of my body, my arms and my hands, in that order."

With or without the Hand Action Accumulators -- #2 (Left Wrist Cock and Uncock) or #3 (Left Hand Turn and Roll) . . .

There is no substitute.

:)

Thats very cool stuff.. ! Yoda

Bagger,

What I am actually trying to express . One way to look at swinging or hitting is how we implement forces to the shaft.

Are we implementing the forces ( usually muscular ) against and across the shaft ( hitting)

Or are we letting Centrifugal /centripetal force , the nature of physics implemented on the shaft .. In fact . A slinger will be a very nice mental picture for swinging.

that is one way that I look at it to separate swinging and hitting.

Now, do this motion have to be pure to play good golf?


Though I notice, and got confused , and puzzled and hopefully I understand better now. That there seem to be a lot of variances to swinging. Not limiting to Homer Kelly's Power accumulator and lag pressures. There are also transfer and conservation of inertia, Torque , and its possible to apply torque from ground up through the joints, even pivot brake. As different joints accelerates , brakes and decelerates then pause.

From Earnest Jones, David "gravity" golf . , George Knudson, Bob Torski, Jimmy Damaret to ,Paul Bertholy, Jimmy ballards, Ben Hogan and last but not least Homer Kelly. Different characteristic and methods of swinging. Ben Hogan did say HIT it ... not swing through it in the Youtube video mentioned by Yoda.. And Tom Tomasello videos did mention the exact same thing... But I would not argue if its actually swinging or hitting... 4 barrel swinger or 4 barrel hitter.. Because ,, simply I don't know..

From Just letting the club drops with the effect of pure gravity and let the centrifugal force, to applying torque from feet up to maximize inertia and/or using the arm "hit" to release. or Pivotless Pure Arm swing.. or let the pivot bring the arm around ..Let the arm blast from the pivot etc etc etc....

No expert or even novice in these but I hope one day someone bring out some data from TPI or Iclub ...

Arm Power - Yoda Post No. 50
 

Yoda, your post is extreemly interesting.

I notice that if I say too much on the right side that
I cannot swing the arms very fast. When on the left
side, if the hip pivot is not complete then the body
seems in the way of a fast arm swing. I have tried
Hogans basketball pass. Also trying an extreemly quick
hip pivot so as to get the one piece move from the top
to finish that Hogan mentions. You mention that long hitters
have the God-given ability to swing the Arms very fast.

Is their a way to lean to swing the arms fast? Should one
concentrate on the arms and try to swing them fast? Or
should one try to speed up the pivot and try to get the
arms to try to keep up? Any thoughts will be appreciated.

Donn

Hogan's Two 'Lists'
 

Donn,

There are many things that contribute to a fast arm swing, and athletic ability is high among them (if not the chief factor). Nevertheless, there are certain things we all can do that will contribute toward the desired result. Your use of the word 'lean' calls to mind one of these, and I will introduce it with two famous (and seemingly contradictory) quotes.

The first will be of great consternation to the 'Sway and Swing' crowd because it comes from no less an authority than the long-hitting Ben Hogan himself. In a quote I have never seen referenced:

"Most pros even tend to list their bodies a little toward the target at address." [Italic emphasis mine.]

-- Ben Hogan
Five Lessons (1957) / Page 43

:shock:

Now, how does this square with another quote, also from the great Hogan:

"At the address there is no straightening of the right elbow. In order that the right arm will be limp and the right elbow down, one must list slightly from the right side. By list I mean that the right shoulder must be dropped and the hips faced slightly to the left." [Italic emphasis mine.]

-- Ben Hogan
Power Golf (1946) / Page 21

:shock: :shock:

Two defined 'lists' . . . one left (toward the target) and one right (away from the target), both made by the same man, the same who arguably was the greatest striker in the history of the game.

What gives?

There is no conflict. Hogan's 1957 'list to the left' was with his lower body, namely, his hips (and supported by his knees and feet) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-YOe...eature=related. This leftward hip shift -- with a centered Head -- resulted in a lower spine slightly closer to the target than the upper spine. And this resulted in his 1946 list to the right with his upper body -- specifically his right shoulder. See the 9-iron stance photo, page 27, Power Golf.

Bottom Line:

For maximum Power and Accuracy, you must be on your left side through Impact. The great players -- from Vardon to Woods -- have begun that transition prior to the Hands reaching the Top of the Backstroke.

Not a bad idea.

:)

Thank you very much for your reply. I sure got a lot out of it.
My post lean was actually a typo. I ment learn. You can bet
that I will hit 500 ball tomorrow with your comments in mind
I will certainly work on them.

Donn

Wrong Question . . . Right Answer
 

Ahhh . . . a most serendipitous typo!

:salut: