[quote=drewitgolf;52247]... The manufacture now creates a Lie Angle by taking the Sweetspot of the racket Head out of line with the handle by giving it hookface.....QUOTE]

This is my understanding of how hookface works. Clubhead COG is not in same plane as the face of the clubhead.

If that is correct then what is happening with the new drivers where COG is forever being moved further back away from clubface?

It occurs to me that assuming the shorter the club the more of back of low point it is played;

-the more out there will be after impact.
-the more down after impact

So if the face is aligned square to the target and the club is traveling out we have a draw or hook situation? Or maybe this just points out my confusion about clubface alignment too?

O.B.

Got one on the hook!
 

This was posted by Mathew back in 2006. Get out a few businees cards to make your own Planes and follow along...

"Hookfaced position is when the initial ball flight plane runs directly vertical to the clubface plane and the lie angle plane whilst another plane can be made that is directly vertical to the lie angle plane on a line where the clubface plane intersects the lie angle plane which is also vertical to the clubshaft plane. To the degree that the clubshaft is moved around in a circle from - vertical to the lie angle plane - to towards the lie angle plane itself on the clubshaft plane is the degree it is hookfaced.

Offset is when the initial ball flight plane runs directly vertical to the clubface plane and the lie angle plane whilst another plane can be made that is directly vertical to the lie angle plane on a line where the clubface plane intersects the lie angle plane which is closed to the clubshaft plane. It is most likely that an offset club has a combination of hookface and offset.

Hope that clears things up."

Thanks for finding the quote from Matthew but I can't say I am any the wiser!

Needs more time to decipher the words than I have time to give at the moment... one to incubate.

dwg

Could you, or Mathew, explain Mathew's words in photo-diagrams or a video demonstration?

Jeff.

"Matman" and the "Boy Wonder"
 

Jeff,

I appreciate your request, however, I am about as computer illiterate as it comes. Mathew on the other hand is a computer genius. Hopefully, he will post (Youtube?) when he returns. I am still trying to figure out why I can't view any video on You Tube :eyes: .

Perhaps a demonstration on a horizontal plane will help.

As in swinging a baseball bat, anything hit before low point ( which in this example is when the bat is perpendicular to home plate-second base line) goes out to the right.

Try this drill. Hold your right arm out in front of you at shoulder level, palm facing 'second base'.

Now move your arm back, so your palm is facing about half way between 1st and 2nd base (out to the right)

Without moving your arm, arch your right wrist so that the palm faces second base.

The amount your right arm is moved back is directly related to how much you have to arch your right wrist. In other words, the more out to the right, or 'up plane', the more hook face (arch need to get back to 'square').

The same is true on an angled plane.

Keep in mind, this drill has the arm representing the club's design, we want a bent right wrist in G.O.L.F.!

EdZ

Thanks for taking the trouble to write. However, your example hasn't helped me understand Mathew's statements better.

Jeff.

Thanks EdZ

What implications, if any, are there to the golfer? Given a club face pointed at the target and a lot of out and down after impact.

O.B.

Hook face and Square face
 

The way I understand Hook face as learnt from videos of Yoda-

The golf swing is a down and out (until low point) stroke. The hook face iron clubs does the work avoiding the ball goes right.

The Driver doesn’t have much hook face. So, if we place the ball back in the stance, where the ball goes? So, this icon :golf: shows us where the ball should place when we use the big stick.

Koc, what i know....

Though the 45 inch driver have 57-60 * lie angle, its more "hooked" than we know it ...

I think the trackman shows the ball can be hit on the downswing , level and even few degree on the upswing . we can play an 11* on the slight downswing or 8.5 on the slight upswing and get the same launch height but different spin numbers.

As long as we could get the ball leaving the face square to the path .. should hit a straight shot relative to where the path moves. say 4 deg to the left , but face square to the target .. 4 deg of Openness to path to contribute to slice spin.. thus it actually could be its easier to hook by placing the ball slightly back of stance because its easier to hit In-to-out path....

Regarding the side spin. the ball will have side spin and backspin. the wedge have the highest backspin and driver lowest backspin. But say given for both shot we have the equal amount of 3000 rpm side spin.. the wedge will give a small fade, but the Driver will give a pretty big slice. because the relationship, ie Ratio of backspin and sidespin will affect overall flight and if the sidespin overcome the backspin than the ball hits the neighbour... ie 3000 sidespin / 2000 backspin = 1.5:1 .. vs 3000 sidespin/13000 backspin... all physics... But the exact relationship... not so sure.. but you get the general idea why..


That makes the driver MUCH harder to hit. even much harder than a 3 woods. thus to keep the ball in the fairway, slightly higher spin is beneficial for driver. and higher loft ....

Though The driver being longer need a slightly longer time in order to reach the IN-Line conditions. Thus the "aiming point" is a touch back , OR , the ball position is a touch towards the target...

Hook Face too much incubation?
 

The sweet spot is behind the shaft on all clubs.

More so on the shorter clubs less so on the longer ones due to the loft.

Put your finger on the sweet spot of a wedge and see how far behind the shaft it is now do the same with a driver. Big difference.

Now with the wedge align the sweet spot up with the shaft (close the face until they are inline) and you will see the amount of "hook face" build into the club.

During impact the sweet spot aligns itself with the shaft producing the hook face.

Its that simple.

Great post
 

I agree I have rarely been able to get the correct feeling of extensor action, nor have i been able to really get teh frozen right wrist, love theidea of softening up the left side, most traditonal golf learning i.e taking swings with jsut the lead arm and hitting shots have lead to a very firm left side making EA feel stiff

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!

Great post!

Great stuff. Are there any implications to the golfer? Any adjustments he or she must make? Club face alignment?

Thanks

I agree that clubhead COG lines up with the shaft at low point (not at impact unless ball is at low point)... but what are the implications with alignment and ball position of having drivers with clubhead COG more rearward than ever before??

Excellent question.

I'm guessing that the principle is the same - however not knowing much about golf equipment- I'd only guess that the actual COG of the Driver could be much closer to the face of the club than one would expect looking down on the club. In other words- looking down you might think it is "way back" in the center of the clubhead- yet based on the distribution of weight from front to back and due to the higher clubface versus the back of the club being lower or having less weight, etc. - that the COG may be a lot closer to the face and really not tend to close the clubface that much. Not sure that's right - just a guess. I do know that the question is a good one!

P.S. I just did a quck "longitudinal center of gravity test with a wedge and a driver i.e. lightly hold the grip with the forefinger and thumb and let the club "hang" vertically- and then see where the center of gravity passes through the clubhead i.e. the shaft line, the center of gravity of the shaft-head combo is surprising close to the top edge of my driver.

Although it would be good for an intelligent post to follow as opposed to this drunken guess that I've posted.

Did you have clothes on when you did the test retard?

Cog
 

Let's just say that I know my COG will be lower than yours!::o

Your welcome :confused1

The Dark Horse
 

Anybody interested in discussing the Right Arm Swing under the condition that we don't bring Tomasello's teachings into the discussion? We've had plenty of talk on the Tomasello method and I'm interested in a fresh perspective.
I have a short video of Homer viewing some right arm swingers and would like to post it if Lynn gives the OK.

The guys on Bombsquadgolf are often telling eachother about how open faced they have their drivers when they get fitted... Vijay apparently has a low loft, open faced driver....

Sure they might like to play a fade...but is the reason that they need an open face driver that they have stacked a load of weights into the rear port of their moveable weight technology drivers....moving COG backwards??

I am not so sure now.... Tom Wishon says that moving weight around the driver with your toolkit has so small an effect on COG that it does not really change performance that much...

Maybe shaft torque comes into this too...whilst the shaft flexes for COG to "line up"...I guess that is does not have to twist...hence clubface alignment may not change all that much...

Anybody else any ideas? I know Golfgnome might be able to help but his mind has real things to concentrate on this weekend!! PGA TOUR !! Good luck Jeff!!

Bagger,

Right on! I would love to see that video.

Birdie Chance

Homer Van Winkle
 

This is video the public has never seen . . . from whose source we extracted the clip of Homer's swing that is posted in our Gallery. I understand the need to keep some things under wraps, but in this case, twenty-seven years is long enough.

Let'er rip, Bagger.

:salut:

Is the the one with the fro's and funny looking outfits out in the back??

An exciting week of videos coming up....looking forward to them!! Thanks!!

Yoda, Bagger.

Thanks for this and any other videos that you may choose to unwrap. For all of our sakes, please keep 'em coming.

I'll put my "video" up for you too . . . .

Trust those R&D depts ???
 

Sorry Bulldog I meant that during impact interval it was aligning. Agree at low point its aligned.

I guess we have to trust the R&D guys who design these clubs to have tested them to ensure that we dont get the drivers too hook faced as a result of moving the COG back. Remember though that they are designing clubs for the masses, people who have swing faults. Mainly slicers and people who cant get the ball in the air so if theres more hook face then thats even better for them.

This is why Todd and co at BSG are making such a good living selling us tour spec clubs, with open faces and low spin rates at very high prices.

So whats the impact on ball position and alignment? Nothing I guess unless you start hitting your drives left and your swing is fine.

Otherwise buy a new one or experiment.

Mucked about with an offset, closed face cobra driver at the weekend and could hit it straightish by playing it further back and teeing it higher (making sure to still go OUT as well as down and forward to low point) ?

Hi Daz, thanks for your post. Interesting to try one of those offset cobra monsters like you did...always been scared off by the ugly looks...

I think that I might have muddled up the "offset" effect of the clubhead ( change in COG leads to closure at impact etc) with "hookface" which is merely to do with way the face and lie angle combine...maybe....not sure still...still in a muddle from Matthews posts....:eyes:

'Most Misunderstood Yellow Topics'

Mostly everything....

Ed! Could you expand on the above???? Very imporant . . . .

Holla back please sir!

Boooooooo-Kay.

Video of Homer viewing "right arm swingers"
 

Bagger: when are you going to post that video?
looking forward...

I'm uploading it now - need Lynn to review it first.

It takes up to 3 hours for some of these videos to upload. I run off a cable modem so upload speed is pretty slow.

The original video was probably shot in 8mm, then converted to VCR, then converted to CD. I had to convert it to wmv for site. Some of the audio and video didn't get synchronized very well somewhere down the line and there isn't anything I can do to make it better, but overall its still really good content.

Yep... the basic, the hands are the 'last link' in the chain.

I don't want to get side tracked into a push vs pull discussion, but if the hands are ahead of the ball at impact, with lag pressure, they are pulling (relative to the clubhead).

You can't have lag pressure in the hands if the hands (pressure points) are not leading.

So if the hands are the last part of the body that has control of the club, and they are, by definition, leading the club to have lag pressure, then we should pay a lot of attention to those hands!

The mind is in the hands.

The 'plane' of the hands, as I define it, is a line drawn from the hands at the top/end, through the hands at impact, to a spot on the ground along that line. For all but a zero accumulator #3 motion, that spot is 'inside' the clubhead/sweet spot, inside the ball-target line.

The plane the pressure points travel on in space. More specifically, the plane pressure point #1 travels on during a true 'zero shift' swing.

For a few examples of how to see this more clearly, take a look through the drills section (linked in my signature), specifically at the drill in a pool.

Easy to see and do on a horizontal plane, a bit more confusing for many on the inclined plane.

Extensor Action BELOW PLANE
 

First of all, I did not read through this entire thread but I have a question that has been puzzling me for weeks now. Understand that I am fairly new to TGM and I am learning alot through LBG.com. Anyway, my question is in regards to the extensor action. The problem I am trying to understand or visualize in my mind's eye is Below Plane. I cannot see this Below Plane and I do not understand what it looks like or what I am trying to feel with the hands. What I think I understand is that Below Plane is directly underneath the plane line somewhere in the dirt. If possible, could someone please help me understand so that I can visualize the Below Plane--thanks.

At address, unless you have zero #3 accumulator (high hands/shaft/forearms in line like Moe Norman), the direction your left arm is pointing, down, will be 'inside' the ball/target line (closer to your toes).

Extensor action can be thought of as trying to extend your left arm, stretch it longer in the direction it points, and since it points inside the ball/target line, that stretch is 'below' the plane.

Wait, Bat Girl was really Commissioner Gordon's daughter, so therefor..
 

Bucket, are you up for a few more rounds on the "Most Misunderstoods"?

If so, Im foggy on 10-3-K the Bat Minor Basic Stroke, Arm Motion. How can the right elbow replace the Left Shoulder as the center of the Clubhead orbit? How can the Flat Left Wrist not be essential? etc. I dont get it.

My reason for asking is two fold: Im goofing with Hitting and loving it but dont want to risk injury to my old squash elbow (which forced me to quit the game) so far so good however no twinges. Secondly, in trying to figure out the 2-J-3 Angle Of Approach Procedure's Straight Line, "Steeper than you think" clubhead arc (which I am nowhere close to figuring out, has anyone?) Mr Kelley mentions an "uncentered linear motion out to right field", which perhaps relates to the above. How do you uncenter a stroke with a taught Left Arm, Primary Lever?

I get that the Right Arm is Powering the Clubhead directly not powering the Primary Lever assembly. I get that Thrust is straight line and I can imagine a straight line Clubhead path requiring the Left Arm and Club , Primary Lever to be uncentered at the left shoulder BUT the only way I can imagine it is via a slackening in the Left Arm or Radius. Is there another way? I hope so cause Im so sold on Swing Radius, Taking up the Slack, the Flat Left Wrist , Extensor Action etc What gives?

Regards

OB

"Now my swing is very right sided. It feels sort of like a right arm flying wedge that stretches a relaxed left arm. The right side is under the left. The right hip goes back. The right arm takes the club away. The right elbow bends, cocking the left wrist. I bump and drive the right shoulder down plane."

Great visualizations of sensations. Very helpful! I too have been [or been trying to be] left-side-dominant for years, decades even. And as you report, as soon as I went to a flat left wrist, right elbow bend, and extension of both arms in the downswing, I felt awkward as heck (particularly going back; less so in the latter stages of the downswing) and could barely imagine--as stiff and "contrived" as all this felt--that I'd be able to hit the ball solidly, much less really forcefully and online. But that's exactly what has happened. With my old, left-focused swing, I felt like I was swinging 100+ mph and the ball flew like 80 mph, not to mention wildly inconsistent. Now I feel like I'm swinging 80 mph and the ball flies like I'm swinging 100+ mph, with heretofore undreamed-of accuracy and consistency. Oh, yeah, I still mishit and misjudge, but that's golf.

Truly appreciate the explanations, theories, observations provided here, as when we're self-medicating on the course or on the range, we need visualizations and vicarious observations to help make meaning of what we think and feel (and think we feel, for that matter). Kudos! -- JC