Jeff

Henny, Bucket and all are on to some interesting stuff here. In your roll as forum leader, please keep them on track, focussed and unfettered by the need to defend even their most basic of thoughts. Lets hear them out while they postulate and maybe we'll all learn something.

You did ask for peoples thoughts on this very interesting article so lets hear em.

Im a big fan, by the way but please let em loosen up a little so they share their insights in the light of day.

O.B.

OK HB whats this thread about again?:)

I don't remember

Henny, Bucket You guys are great but .....Its christmas. How 'bout sharing something.

Tell us what you would change or add to the article. Geometry? How do you rotate those hips 180 degrees or whatever? With the right hip? HOgan talked about driving the right knee but was this really his right hip driving?

O.B.


PS My two cents worth is, what the heck does a Hawaiin know about hockey slap shots? Thats like me talking about HULa dancing, OOps I have.

OB Left

I actually encourage detailed posts from forum members. I am not discouraging HB and 12PB from posting a detailed post on their viewpoint(s).

However, I am very critical in my analysis of posts, and I parse every sentence in a post for its logical coherence in terms of cause-and-effect relationships. If somebody believes that a 2nd hip firing and 2nd shoulder firing in the late downswing (just prior to impact) can increase ball flight distance, then I expect them to make sure that their argument is intellectually coherent and concordant with established TGM beliefs.

GBD

You wrote-: "I am not convinced that the arm rotational velocity increase much between green diamond and blue circle (time point for max arm speed)... the arm speed trace seems to plateau at about the same time as the shoulder rotation...approximately."

I am surprised that you harbor that belief. I have always believed that one needs to release PA#4 efficiently so that the arms swing freely across the body into impact. John Jacobs in his book "Practical Golf" strongly emphazises a free flowing arm swing. The arms should not outrace the torso, but they definitely shouldn't only travel as fast as the torso rotates. The arms should surely travel faster than the upper torso in the late downswing.

Here is a photo series of Ben Hogan's swing. Note how the left arm progressively separates from the chest wall (and hands move further away from the right shoulder) during the downswing.



That's what I call an efficient release of PA#4.

Jeff.

Great pictures Jeff . . . I totally agree with your last sentence. Paying particular attention to the last 4 frames . . . the shoulders don't seem to be adding much to the mix . . . there certainly is some turning but there sure doesn't seem to be a huge amout of rotation happening. The left arm seems to be moving down the chest FAST. Looks like there are some vertical forces to and from the ground.

Do you have any pictures of "hackers" that you could put up against this? It think you'd find that the hands stay "HIGH" compared to Mr. Hogan.

Very nice pictures . . . . I think this works nicely with the basics of this MTF or MFT or MF'er swing or whatever. I'm not sure about all that 2nd firing mess but what I do believe is there is something to be said about vertical forces from/to the ground and NOT having the shoulders just pull the arms over or under plane. Seem to be some similarities to the baseball "guru" dude. They seem to be really "STRECHING OUT". Maximum extension from the feet up through the spine. Maximum extension of the spine is going to have some reverse C stuff going ala Zubak.

12PB

I think that the baseball player is doing what golfers should do - release the PAs fluidly and efficiently and completely. HK's PA concept involves the arms and the whole idea is to fully release the PAs to the both arms straight position of full extension. The pivot initiates the process in a pivot-driven swing, but once the "left arm is blasted into orbit" (HK's phrase) the PAs should be allowed to release fully. A second firing of the hips and shoulders cannot (I think) add additional swing power to the releasing power accumulators (PA#4 => PA#2 => PA#3 in a swinger's action).

I think that the vertical force mainly applies to the lower body. One needs to apply a vertical force down the spine, down-and-through the pelvis, and down the entire left leg to brace the left side. A braced left leg and braced secondary axis tilt allows a golfer (and baseball player) to fully release the arms into full extension.

Jeff.

bend and stretch and again, two more, one more..
 

And a sort of compression in transition maybe? A lowering of the head and a squat. Is this part of it? Or is this bobbing? Man there are a lot of great golfers who did it though. Tiger, Yoda,Moe, Hogan. Down then up.

Interesting how the baseball guy drops his checkrein right around impact. I guess it would extend his arc outwards.

Bucket, I can see how the ball player who is trying to hit the ball up high for maximum distance would need some Zubackian reverse C or tilting but what about the normal everyday mid trajectory drive? Couldnt one bend and stretch without tilting back in a reverse C? My back hurts just looking at it.


Thanks

O.B.

TGM has the geometry covered...not much this guy is going to tell us.

I would not turn my hips 180 degrees unless I wanted to have left knee surgery.

I've read that bit that Hogan said about running the right knee at the ball, but I have not seen Hogan do it.

The long drive guys need to hit high like the baseball players. There are some distinctions between Zuback's move and the classic reverse C. First, Zuback's legs are straight instead of still bent and way forward. Second, his head goes back because he thrusts with his core so much not because he just hangs back. I'm not saying his move is easy on the back, but it is not the same as the 70's reverse C. I've tried it. It is very powerful, but it can lead to spraying the ball.

Jeff, with reference to the paper that you quoted - the peak rotational velocity for the arm and thorax appear at approximately the same time point - green diamond and blue circle. So it is not so much my belief...rather my interpretation of that data....arm velocity is greater than thorax velocity but the peak velocity of each appears to coincide.

Seems to me that acceleration of arm is dependent on thorax in THAT swing. You can use TGM concepts to interpret this golfers data...but you can not use this golfers data to prove or disprove the validity of TGM...however expert he may be. Homer said that even the best pros do not always do it as well as they might...or something to that effect...so studying their photos to prove / disprove TGM does not work.

My interpretation of TGM is that the pivot carries an "arm swing" until release of acc 4 then the pivot moves to support alignment of the power package in accordance with plane line etc... again, not a belief - just an interpretation of the literature. Once acc 4 is released a free arm swing will have no further rotational acceleration but should maintain approx. constant velocity until release of acc. 2,3. My interpretation of the book. I ca sleep at night if its incorrect though...:laughing9

GBD

OK. I can understand your viewpoint.

You were simply interpreting that graph which showed that arm speed was not much greater than shoulder speed and that arm speed peaked soon after shoulder speed.

Just as cameras produce artifacts, so do the golf researchers. They confuse us with different graphs. That graph represents the view of "reality" as produced by the TPI researchers. Here is a graph produced by the Welch-Zenolink researchers, and this graph represents their view of "reality" regarding the kinetic sequence.



The blue curve represents the shoulder speed, and the green curve shows the arm speed. One can see that the arms travel much faster than the shoulders after the shoulders decelerate and that the arm speed peaks much later.

Jeff.

This post is traveling in the wrong direction when the baseball swing is used as an example to make a point. Notice that Englishby uses a T and not a real pitch from 60' coming at different speeds and on multiple planes. If you want to actually compare with baseball, check out Manny Rameriz, Ken Griffy Jr, Aaron, Bonds or Babe Ruth to see how players develope momentum and bat speed through the hitting area. Most ball players can hit a golfball with authority but also need radar to find some of their shots. A tournament golfer is a different animal. Please be careful when teaching young players. Get back to G.O.L.F.

Cal Sr

Thanks HB

Thats a great observation that will help any readers who are going out there to try the tilted, long ball. I remember my 70's swing had a good deal of double anchor and back pain associated with it.

Im really interested in this elevation, extension thing through the shot. I notice a lot of great golfers doing it and my results have been very good with it. For me its real down then up feeling. The camera doesnt show too much head movement, however in the down direction. I like it but how do we separate this from bobbing? (assuming you subscribe to a little down before the up, maybe not)

How about the authors "twist" as in "jump and twist" the ice skaters jump analogy.

Thanks for this, very interesting
O.B.

I like the jump and twist analogy. Tiger bobs but I never see him hit fat. I think you can do these moves without bobbing. I think you can do a nice amount of thrusting without having your head go back at the end (ie less than Zuback). Look at the knees. Bent in delivery....straight in follow through. Loading into the ground like you were trying to hit low (blow up the plane line). Then, without disturbing the power package, using your legs to get the club out of the ground.

If the right hip is held back in transition and the hips slide forward a la Hogan, V.J. Trolio etc., is it the right hip that does the twisting? Homer assigned so many things to the right side all most as if it was his first choice unless he found out otherwise. This is sort of what I was wondering about in regard to the suggestion that he "he ran his right leg at the ball" it maybe being more of a hip or right hip action.. I dunno. Im really trying to figure it out for me not Hogan but I can sort of see/feel the twist being a right hip action with a corresponding active straightening (but not too full extension) of the left leg. I have a feeling Yoda might call this a hip action too.

How do you see the hip twist, given a held back right hip and the weight left?


Thanks for this

O.B.

Is there a dynamic / physics advantage in doing this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NZwGo8tLlMU

Which outweighs any variation in alignments which may be out of synch by not swinging from a fix head position?

GBD

Excellent production!

I personally think that there is an advantage to flexing the knees like Hogan in the downswing.

When one swings the club down-and-out-and-forwards in the golf swing, one of the three-dimensional forces is a distinct downward force. I think that it's likely that a golfer can better stay in balance - while maintaining all his body/spine angles and while avoiding tippling forward - if he initiates a marked downward thrust force of the club in conjunction with a piston-like flexing of the knees. It is like a downhill skier going through a mogul run - they flex their knees like crazy in order to keep their upper body stable. A golfer wants to keep in balance and keep all his body angles intact during the downswing, and if the golfer has a very forceful down thrust action (like Tiger Woods) then using the knees as shock-absorbers/stabilisers may be biomechanically advantageous. I do not generate sufficient downward thrust to require that type of knee action, but golfers like Tiger Woods and Jamie Sadlowski may benefit by using that type of knee-flex action.

Jeff.

Thanks Jeff, most of the compression occurs during the backswing in that sequence. A little bit more occurs in transition but head height is very still during release...very big pivot driven release...new edit waiting for upload...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_G69o5q1mac

Hogan Power Golf era swing ( I reckon about 1947 - but that is debatable on seperate thread..lets not get off topic:laughing9 )

Foot action , left knee, left shoulder...right knee...right shoulder...

This shows the bit that Ben Doyle "catches the tail " of the dog which he has just let out between his legs.... pretty near cuts the tail off IMO!!

This is the swing where he nearly loses balance... he clearly loved to hit it a long way...

GBD

I agree that he is flexing his knees during the backswing. Biomechanically, he is still performing the same motion - bracing the knees by flexing the knees so that they are ready to withstand the downward arm swing thrust action movement without losing any body angles or balance. Theoretically, that knee flexing action could presumably occur in the early downswing - just before, and in anticipation of, the downward arm thrust action movement.

Here are images of VJ Singh where it appears that his knee flexing action occurs in the early downswing and not the backswing.



Not all PGA tour golfers seem to need that knee-flex action.

Here are a series of images of Adam Scott. His knee flex angle doesn't seem to change much during his backswing/downswing.



Position 1 and 2 = backswing, positions 3 and 4 and 5 = downswing.

Jeff.

Dog I just realized you are a English bull dog as opposed to most of the Georgia Bull Dogs around this site.

Great stuff, you are fast.

Yes this footage is him really giving it a whack for the camera. Still looks beautiful though , eh?

Two questions I have for all or y'all:
-at what point is this compression a bob and inadvisable? It for sure has implications for the radius as the left shoulder is on the move. Tiger never hits it fat though and I suspect Hogan didnt lay the turf over it too often either, eh Henny? How do they do that, a lot of #1 and 4 left at impact?

-what are we seeing in Mr Hogans hip action in these two photos. It looks like a "jump and twist" as described in the article to me. More curious to me is what is driving this hip rotation or twist? The hips, the right hip, the left hip, the legs , the knees the feet? Im thinking its a hip action of some sort.

All the best
O.B.


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=122997533 5


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=122997533 5

OB, have no idea that Georgia had it's own Bulldog! I am British version ...probably equally as inbred though!:laughing9

I see alot of left leg extension through and just beyond impact (bit like baseball guy that 12PB had)...and left shoulder goes "level left" during COG transfer..then up a bit as hands approach release...then left shoulder goes through the roof through impact!!

Hogan had massive gluteal muscles... look at KOC's recent video

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-8FjwXPTtL8

- Hogan's tush juts out way more than the average flabby guy! He is like J-Lo - It may be artifact from all the surgical strapping he was using for his legs... Ok ..probably not... but it looks like the glutes of a 100 metre sprinter .. I think that somehow that is a key component of his swing. I not sure how the biomechanics people will take that but you don't develop that kind of muscle and NOT use ! Glutes are hip extensors i think...that might work.

I don't know about that.... I had a boss once who was a real fat ass and couldn't hit worth dog d00-d00.

Ben shoulda used his wedge alright.

Thanks Bulldog

Ive got to find my Bertrand book to crack this "level left" thing that I keep hearing about. We can leave it for another day if it is off topic.

Love the left leg extension its helping me out nicely, but still have money on Yoda saying its a hip action of some sort. I could be wrong.

Homer ascribed the movement of the left shoulder to the action of the right shoulder if memory serves me well. I can see how the right shoulder driving on plane would send the left shoulder up, way up. Is this congruent to your thinking, though opposite shoulder minded?

Best be careful with the Georgia Bull Dog cracks around here , you know those guys like a fight and are very tight, them being all related and all.......

Cheers
O.B.

Could he just have altered his downswing hand path and stuck with the 9 iron ?:)

Now your pulling my string
 

Hey NM

Not to cross pollenate the threads or anything but is this extension and left shoulder going up thing relevant to your shortening radius for power assertion in the other thread? I dunno.......

OB

Yes absolutely!

I should qualify that.... I believe the final UP thing is that "pumping" the pendulum thing (parameteric acceleration). http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/articl...06A1001780.php By the time they're going up and back they've already done everything possible to delay release and speed up the clubhead (shorten the radius)

Thanks for this.

And by the way, I guessing Hogan intentionally avoided vertical hinging and an open clubface on that 9 iron. He could have made that shot with a 2 iron I bet.

OB

See qualification I added.... Yes.. I'm sure Ben could have too... wasn't in the script though:)

So its done prior to low point or impact maybe? Is that you mean? I need some string.

O.B.

I don't think there is an advantage for golfers who keep score. Espescially those that have work schedules.

I think there is a form of loading the legs and pushing off the ground that would allow for a stable center, much like, and including, staying centered with hula hula.

Biomechanically, can one jump higher from a static bent knee posture or down and up motion?

HB

I imagine that one could jump higher with a dynamic bend rather than a static knee bend.

However, what's the relevance of the jumping-up part?

My mental image of this knee-flexing action is that it is designed to stablise the golfer in his downward thrust action - a form of bracing equivalent to the bracing action of a "firm left leg" that is needed to brace a golfer against the forward momentum generated by the rotating arms/clubshaft.

David Lee, in his book "Gravity Golf" described a counterfall action directed 70 degrees left of the target - that he felt was required to stablise the torso during the down-and-out thrust action of the arms during the early-mid downswing.

I think that all these stabilising movements allow a golfer to swing faster and still remain in balance, but I don't think these movements are prime sources of added power.

I have become more conservative since I discovered TGM's system of power accumulator loading/release. I am skeptical of any "new" idea of generating more swing power - if the "new" idea cannot be explained in TGM terms/concepts. Consider the idea of a second hip/shoulder firing. How could it increase swing power? I think that any proponent of that "new" idea would have to demonstrate how it increases power via the PA system - which is essentially an arm power system. They would have to demonstrate how body power translates into increased arm power at a time point in the downswing when added arm power is useful, rather than harmful.

Jeff.

Jeff,

I'm skeptical too. The more I figure out, the more Homer rings true. In fact, the more I think about moving my power package fast, the father the ball goes. But, I do notice that the guys that hit it really far in the air tend to go from bent legs to straight legs.

So this bent to straight leg thing, aint in the book? Is that right?

Thats ok , though right. Homer did say "because of question of all kinds....


O.B.

HB - I think that going from a bent knee position in the downswing to a straight left leg position at impact is nothing more than the O factor principle - as described by Robert Baker in his swing video lesson. It simply depends on how much of a positive O factor one wants to acquire at impact. Some golfers like Tiger Woods have a very straight left leg at impact (which is partially responsible for his left knee damage) while other golfers keep their left knee slightly flexed at impact.

See -http://www.golf.com/golf/video/artic...595277,00.html

I agree with Robert Baker that it is a good idea to have a positive O factor at impact, but greater amounts of O factor do not necessarily correlate with increased clubhead speed. One only needs enough O factor to get secondary axis tilt that allows the right shoulder to move downplane, which allows for the correct in-to-square-to-in clubhead swingpath when PA#4 releases the left arm into impact.

Jeff.

It's not JUST leg extension . . . EVERYTHING stretches out . . . spine and arms too . . . but without disrupting the centered pivot ideally. Not saying that that compression deal Hogan and Tiger do is wrong . . . just maybe not necessary for mortal golfers. You can have some of that flex extend deal without having your head moving like that . . .they don't hit it fat .. . don't mean we won't have disruption though.

Yes sireee . . .it is . . . look up pivot lag and swinging from the feet . . . maximum radius . . .

Interesting stuff in regards to extension and flex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kizEPmGiQzc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZsplhHXQy0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAB7L...eature=related