Daryl,

You are making some great points about Lag's TGM. Lately, Mr. Erickson has been doing some writing about address alignments that, as an LBG / Brian Gay swing fanatic, I totally disagree with. I really like a lot of his ideas on playing the game, and I'm sure his information will continue to help me in this regard, but I choose to continue on the swing path we are learning here from Master YODA.

Thanks for the help in understanding the differences. Your posts are VERY enlightening and help keep me on track. :salut:

Kevin

Im just catching up with this post. I love his swing and find his email above very interesting.

Couple of questions/thoughts.

-I dont doubt he does thrust but am wondering about his description of it. How does he fire #2 and #3 at the same time from Pitch elbow? I can see how he can fire #2 with his PP #3 (in its weak knuckle position) actively but wouldnt firing #3 at the same time result in an off plane clubhead orbit? I dunno.

-The 4;30 Angle of Approach, point of contact on the ball , the inside aft quadrant , the inside strike or whatever you want to call it, does not in actuality remain constant. The point of contact on the ball or its corresponding time, changes as the ball position approaches low point on the Angle or Arc of Approach. So 4;30 sometimes 3;00 some other times. Or is he suggesting the ball should be played that far back of low point at all times, driver too?

-I dont read the other forums very often but in regard to Hogan's "three right hands" have you guys discussed this video in that regard. Here Hogan appears to be really laying it on hard with the right side near impact. I dont think that this would make him a hitter however, Pitch being a very week elbow position from which to over ride all of his swing induced CF. If you have a team of horses at the front of the cart and one, albeit a stallion at the rear, is it a pulling or pushing machine?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlUKLPFwQE

-in regard to Baggers right arm swinging notion. Does he suffer from Golfers Elbow?

-did Homer lay the ground work for thrusting from Pitch in 10-24-D Non Automatic Snap Release?

Where do I learn more about Erickson?

Regards
Ob

First of all,

This is clearly one of the more interesting threads about swinging vs hitting for a long time. :salut:

Daryl's clear and no-compromize analysis are both impressive and convincing. To be precise I am very impressed but not totally convinced at the moment.

The pictures shows quiet hips through impact. Which is very different from what I expect to see from e.g. Sergio Garcias swing. I tend to regard the quiet hips as a sign of a driving force at work. The body waiting for the hands to catch up. And also as an enabler of more angular hinge action. Which all correlate with hitting I believe.

This is a good opportunity to learn a lessen so I will appreciate a comment from Daryl and those who disagree with him.

The Video tells a different story about his Zone 1. It's Fluid, Powerful and Far Moving.

Driving the Right Forearm doesn’t differentiate Hitting and Swinging.

Thrusting the #3 Pressure Point doesn’t differentiate Hitting and Swinging. Swingers thrust on-plane. The “Feeling” that you want Three Right Hands is Clubhead Lag (dead weight inertia) combined with Angular Acceleration.

LOADING ACTION:
If you Load the #3 Pressure Point against the Primary Lever, then you’re preparing to Hit. This supports Hand Motion and the Power Package DRIVES the Right Elbow to along your Right Side at Release. From Release through Impact the Clubface is looking Down-plane and the Right Elbow Straightens like a Piston to Radial Drive the Clubshaft through Impact.

If you Load the #3 Pressure Point against the Secondary Lever, then you’re preparing to Swing. John Erickson Loads the #3 Pressure Point against the Secondary Lever. This supports the Wristcock and at Release, the Right Elbow is in Front of the Right Hip because the Power Package DROVE it to that Location. The Steeper the Plane Angle, the Closer to your Belt Buckle the Power Package DRIVES the Right Elbow.


RELEASE TRIGGERS
Now, One would think that his Right Arm Throw Trigger (from the Top) is a sign of a Hitter. Normally it is when the Direction of THRUST is at the Ball. However, for John Ericson, the Direction of Thrust is Down-plane but AWAY from the Ball, to His Right as he Uncocks His Elbow to get his Right Forearm On-Plane at Release. In John’s own Words:
“On top of that, you have to learn what I believe to be the most difficult swing move in all of golf. Straightening the right arm out quickly on the downswing…while the torso turns flat or at right angles to the spine or axis. It’s a great move to master though, because if you can do it, you can’t ever get over the top of the shot and pull it.
For those who are still confused, it feels like you are coming right over the top to hit a big pull shot, but instead, that hands move straight down, as if they are going to land in your right hip pocket, but your shoulders are turning as flat a 15th century Spanish globe.”

There are TWO Right Arm Throws. The Second one (if you didn’t use the First) is used by Hitters at Release to Release the #2 and #3 Accumulators Simultaneously. You need a Punch Elbow Position to Use this Trigger.

John Erickson uses a Non-Automatic Sequenced Release. He Swivels his Left Wrist from Bent to Flat at the Start Of Release. This way, he has a Rolled Clubface at the Beginning of his Release. But because he Releases so Early, he must move His Hands (Uncocking but with a Rolled Clubface) another 12 inches until Impact. In slow-motion, it’s readily observed that his Pivot is Closing the Clubface for Impact. Clearly, this is not a Simultaneous Release. He is Confusing Hinging and Swiveling. I bet he Swivels when he Swings and that When he Hinges, it feels like Hitting.

John is using Feeling to describe his Mechanics. With the Greatest Golfers in the World, what they Describe and what actually happens are too often different.

John is a Pivot Controlled Hands Swinger. He doesn't use a Power Package according the the Concept by Homer Kelley. When he Bends and Unbends his Right Elbow, he breaks a Cardinal rule. 1 L-8 No proportion of the Lever Assembly can swing forward independently.

WOW Daryl! How did you learn TGM in such depth?

Kevin

Honestly, without this one website and teachers and members it wouldn't be possible.

Thanks a lot Daryl,

Unless in the extreme situations I have always struggeled to understand the difference between hitting and swinging. Great responses you have produced here.

Release. The Yellow Line represents his Line of Sight to the Ball.

Johns Early Release is diagnostic. But it's not because his head is 8 inches behind center. It's his Power Package. There is no Rigid Structure. That means that the Power Package (Arms and Hands) changes their geometry during the Backstroke and Downstroke. Although the Power Package lowers his hands during the Downstroke, unbending his Right Arm stops his right elbow from being driven to a more forward On-Plane Location.

The Purpose of the TGM Power Package is to Drive the Right Elbow to an On Plane Location for Release on your Selected Swing Plane Angle (Zone 2) thus allowing the Hands (Zone 3) to become Finesse Control. The Power Package is held Rigid and moves up and Down from the Shoulder Sockets.

According to TGM Power Package theory, the less you bend your Right Arm during the Backstroke, the Steeper the Plane Angle. You have a Rigid Power Package if you don't unbend the Right Elbow until Release. Then, as the Power Package Lowers from the Shoulder Sockets during the Downstroke, the Hands Lower BUT so does the Right Elbow thus, the Right Elbow, as part of the Power Package, is Driven, along with the Hands by the Power Package.

You can easily do this experiment yourselves. From a Centered Address, don't move anything except raise your Arms from the Shoulder Sockets while not putting more bend in your right arm. Your Right Elbow is in-Front of you and your Plane Angle is extremely steep. Raise and Lower your hands a few times from your Shoulder Sockets and notice that while moving your hands up and down, that your Right Elbow Also Moves up and down.

The Anti-Power Package motion is very different. Cock your Right Elbow (pull it backwards) from Address and your hands move to the Right. Then any further Bending and Unbending of your Right Elbow will raise and Lower the Hands but will not move the Right Elbow. Power Package is lost.

Hitters will Cock their Right Elbow, but once Cocked to about 90 degrees this geometry is raised and Lowered from the Shoulder Sockets just like in the Previous demonstration without further bending or Unbending of the Right Elbow until Release. Therefore, during the Downstroke, for Hitters, the Right Elbow Returns to this exact Location for Release. Furthermore, the Elbow and Hands arrive at Release with a Fully Cocked Elbow, at their Side Alignment, and the Hands are in Line of Sight to the Ball (unless you use a Right Arm Throw from the Top...then, all bets are off).

One last thing. Hitters using the Right Arm Throw From the Top, will feel it necessary to Over-cock their Right Elbows to get the Hands Closer to the Body at the Top so that they can feel a Straight-Line Thrust to the Ball and not run out of right arm before release. This is counter-productive. Using a Rigid Power Package along with a Pivot will Accelerate the Hands and locate them in the Line-of-sight to the ball at Release, and a Right Arm Trigger at Release will become stage three of the acceleration sequence rather than stage two.

Calling All Hitters. Place your Elbow at your side and your Right Forearm at 90 degrees to your Shoulders. Lower your Right Hand until the #3 PP points at the Plane-Line. Resume Pivoting to the Left until your Hands are at the Line-of-sight to the Ball. That's how far your Pivot should move in the Downstroke to the Release Point. That's almost Impact Fix. To get to Impact Fix, simply straighten (right arm throw) your Right Arm (like a Piston) as the Pivot Continues and the Clubhead will knock the ball off the Tee. As you straighten the Right Arm, note that Impact occurs before the straightening the the Right Arm moves the Hands (left) to Center of the Body, which should occur at Full extension.

So, the Difference between Hitters and Swingers is How they Load the Clubshaft in order to Accelerate the Clubhead either Radial or Longitudinal in Stage Three of the Acceleration Sequence. It's not How Much Right Arm you use, it's How You Use It.

Ok Ive been reading his stuff too. I like the his writing and his swing a lot. I dont doubt he thrusts actively. He should know.

But like Daryl's statement above, Im thinking that his former Swinging motion was maybe more based upon his first teacher's, Ben Doyle's, version of swinging than otherwise................an over swivel with the left hand rotating right on through the inclined plane in release being mistaken for a Horizontal Hinge. The left wrist not maintaining its alignment to the Horizontal Basic Plane.

No disrespect intended to Mr Doyle, he was the first authorized instructor and laid the ground work for all who followed. Being first had its disadvantages. The last one in doesnt have it very easy either, come to think of it.

I can't believe what I am reading here,
I've played with Lag and as a ball striker he's pretty good.
We had an awesome day play with the old gear and played some great golf.
The swing your commenting on that day he hit 16 greens.
I've test lags biomechanics and he has good physics.
There are a few areas he can improve on although overall pretty good.

I can't tell you now he's not moving the way you all believe he is , the illusion of video.
How do you know how his swing works when you can't measure each segment speed and know if he has muscular loading.
And measure what the club is doing. If the club is decelerating or accelerating into impact.
How do you know if he has kinetic link (6-M-1) or not so he is using the right sequence.

Lag swings it pretty good and he's actually a hitter. we measured him.

Picking at straws really , the guys swing it quite well, they are a few issue which has nothing to do with what you are talking about. That's an end result, not what his true underlaying issues are

Hey Bio,

That chip on your shoulder is growing. Maybe you should take it down a notch.

You claimed earlier that photos can't reveal information about the Golf Swing, and now claim "Swing videos" are an "illusion". I guess that only you and your lab equipment remain as the only credible source of Golf Swing Mechanics and Analysis.

""Lagpressure" is a Hitter". By who's definition? Yours? His? I'll buy that. Strictly TGM? No Chance.

You guys are way off the 'Reservation' by re-defining TGM terminology to fit your own interpretation and agenda. That's not credible.

What do ya think of the following statement?

"Remember that we can use a big “sit down” position to initiate the change in direction, the legs are part of our pivot...and in TGM that would be our 4th accumulator. "

What would YOU think if I said that my Accumulator sequence was:
(4 + 1 + (2+3) +4 + 1+ 5)

Recently, a BioMechanics guy made the following statement:
"Homer has some great information although here's the problem is people perceptions and points of view of homers work. Get a ton of TGM guys in one room and everyone has a different perception or point of view on his work."
I suppose it was meant to discredit TGM in General. Yet the same can be said of a room full of BioMechanics researchers and trainers.

In "The Impact Zone" by Bobby Clampett, a story is told about a man from Canada after finishing a good lesson, turned and said to Ben; "Ben, I really understand what you meant." Ben replied "No you don't. You have knowledge. If you understood, you could apply it". Forgive me for paraphrasing, but Ben's response should be clear.

Of those Ton of TGM guy's in a room, at least you didn't say they were all experts. However, it's unfortunate that you forgot to mention that when the TGM guy with the disagreement is taught what Homer intended, he no longer disagrees.

Prologue. TGM is a small world. Give me the names of those guys you're talking about and I'll point to the expert so you'll know who he is. But I don't expect you to understand. :(

Daryl,
I'm very familar with TGM world and one of the first doctrate of TGM , taught me from day one I started playing and I went onto teaching TGM myself with a very good track record in teaching.
My clients are even better now I gave them physics.

One girl is 15, she went to all the best coaches and they all gave up on her. She couldn't break 100 and been playing for 3 years. When I worked with her in 12 months she is now breaking 75. Every week she breaks 80. All I gave her is physics.


Lag's hitting ,doesn't look like he does and at first I thought swinger visually the data tells the story a different story.
In TGM terms he's hitting according to his data.

Daryl have you ever listened to homers 120 hours of casette's speaking about TGM and touch on hitting and swinging? we'll worth listening to an eye opener.

Bioengine,

Don't come back to me with garbage research interpretation. "According to TGM"? Where in TGM does Homer tell you that TGM Terminology works with your Data?
Your instruments may measure forces on your feet at release but do they tell you if the measured forces are caused by slapping vs. punching alignments? Ben Doyle states that Slapping is much more powerful than punching. He's been teaching TGM for 50 years. How many years have you taught TGM?

Shouldn't you rephrase your statement "Even with my limited TGM knowledge, Lag sure looks like he's a swinger, but he says he's hitting, so he must be a hitter, because he says so."

I don't know you or your teacher, I don't know Lagressure.

But if you and he want to peddle this, (4 + 1 + (2+3) +4 + 1+ 5) then go ahead. But if you claim that this is consistent with TGM then I say you have both lost your minds.

You guys are way off the 'Reservation' by re-defining TGM terminology to fit your own interpretation and agenda. That's not credible.

Daryl,
I'm not here to get into arguments with you.
We can measure x,y and z forces. How much for is going at the ball, up and down and away and towards the body. We can pin point exactly at what point the club head begins to release.
Can tell you linear speeds and angular speed as well at any point in the downswing and after impact.
We can tell at what point you reached maximum linear and angular speed.Also both these speeds at impact.
When the club accelerate/ decelerates at any given point.

There are tons of guys on video who appear to be firing the hips first, although the data shows they fire the hands first.

Do you know that impact and change of transition commencing the downswing can be in between frames so you can miss the transition. It's like a normal camera each time you capture a photo the shutter opens and shuts. The same occurs when you slow down peoples swing on video data is missing.
1/2 a frame is a ton of missing information.
Do some research and you will find this to be accurate.

My point is video does have illusions. And hey I put my hand up and say it's caught me out to. People send me video all the time asking me what I think of their swing. Hell I can't tell cause I know the illusions.

Looking at movement patterns video can't tell you the real story.

Daryl maybe on video this is what you see.

Using biomechanics tells a different story.

Say Hi to Ben, I respect Ben Doyle.

That's their problem as anyone who uses a Hand or Arm Throw. Do it at your own risk.

TGM is about the hands sensing, directing and applying Pivot Forces. ®

To say that Zone 3 can be no better than Zone 1 has become Mantra on this web-site. You work to help people find Zone 1, TGM controls it.

Daryl,
Totally agree with you zone1 first.

Hands first is a poor movement patterns. So these guys who do this need zone1 training.
I think we would both agree on this.

This is why we test people to find out how there body is moving, what sequence are they using.

Then we provide them with a program to train their body how to create the right sequence or movement patterns.

Lag has some movement pattern issues for sure and he can improve his movement patterns.
I provided him an evaluation although we never devised a program for him.
He was more interested in seeing how his body moved in his golfswing. Not fix it or improve on his swing.
He's happy with the way he swings that's fine by me.

If he was interested in improving his patterns I'm happy to assit him.

By all means personally I believe he could improve his movement patterns and sequencing. There are issues there.

I can see your point of view as well about swinging. And if he sorted his movement patterns out he would be a pure swinger for sure.
Lag on his data resorted to hitting to compensate for his movement pattern issues.Which prevented him from being a pure swinger.
Lag develop a swing which worked for him.

He if he's happy so be it.

At the end of the day choose your poision. I measure movement patterns and improve movement ptterns. Geometry well thats your field, you do decided which action someone should employ.
All I do is give people the physics, so you boys can give them the geometry which intergrades to create a beautiful golfswing hitting or swinging.

Daryl,
I get called in by coaches cause there having problems with their players applying geometry. They know there is another issue. We test them to determine ok is it physics or a geometry problem together.If it's Physics or movement pattern issues I give their player a program to create the right movement patterns. Once the player achieves this, the coach can then apply the geometry.

That includes Accumulator and Lag Loading. Stopping the Backstroke with your Pivot (sensors in your feet) ensures that the Transition will be smooth and not jerk around those pressures. The pressures on the feet that halted the Backstroke are the same pressures that begin the Downstroke. That means that the amount of force that the Pivot needs to apply is not a guess. If you want more force, allow the pivot to create more Pressure on #3. It is the job of the Pivot to maintain that pressure at least until both arms are straight in the Follow-through. Everybody adds a little Float Load during the Downswing. That increase gets picked up by the Pivot and so the Speed or sharpness of the Pivot components will adjust to deliver that #3 Pressure to the Follow-Through.

Nice one, sounds good

300 fps
 

What about those of us that have 300 fps cameras?

300 fps on a Cassio seems plenty fast to my eye. I never use the higher f rates, though the camera has them.

Remember though that if the camera doesnt have a shutter it isnt frames per second, but rather fields per second. Apples and oranges. Some of the new industrial high speed video cameras like the Vipor actually have a shutter. This whole frame rate thing is really changing quickly .............what used to be a US Army or manufacturing technology is now available to the public in the form of a point and shoot camera. Heck there is even a high speed golf specific camera on a cell phone.

OB
With the rapid grow grow of technology it's so hard to keep up.
The other day in cycling everyone was raving about this new biomechanics system. I checked the technology out. It was a cheap 20,000 dollar system using infrared receiver and senors with a wired system. All this system did is measure bike set up. People we paying same rate as we do and wasn't measuring movement patterns, all they were getting was a bike fit. It cheap technology and where they placed the sensors weren't positioned in the right place on the person. In comparison to a $250000 Vicon system.
In biomechanics consumers are up to speed between the differences in technology. The consumer loses out and you can't say nothing or you come across as bagging your competitors.

Like Polhemus $38000 dollar system and comparing their data to Vicon $250000 system. Worlds apart with accuracy and information.

Cameras are getting better all the time.
They have their application for golf coaches.
They irrelevant to my field they can't measure body segment speeds and accel and decel etc or muscle groups

Im interested in your measurements, makes good sense to me. But the visual from swing film cant be totally irrelevant in a broader sense. I would think that all information is relevant.

I appreciate that the video you get sent from students is missing information between the frames. My point was that, the frame rates are so high now that it isnt necessarily so.

If you were to look solely at your data would you be able to describe a golfers motion in a manner that someone could visualize? Could you look at Lee Trevinos swing data and describe his lag loading or thrusting? His figure eight path? If not then your data is also only "part of the picture".

Not trying to be confrontational, I dont work for a swing video company or anything. But "irrelevant to your field" is a big statement. Id prefer to see your data and an accompanying swing video, personally.

high def
 

I did some checking on a high def., 1500 fps, but it's still a pretty penny. You can spend as much as you'd like. But, it will always be about results for the student. We can wow them with science in the short term. But, learning compression will wow them for a lifetime.

Improvement At the Margin
 

Bioengine,

In my lessons, I often use video. Most people learn well visually, especially when the subject is themselves!

As you have implied, video is a limited presentation of (1) alignments (geometry); (2) stroke component variations, action and sequencing (physics); and (3) any recommended improvement (objective and subjective analysis).

I am intrigued by your work, and without bias or an attitude of confrontation, ask the following questions:

1. At what point -- 100-shooter, 80-shooter, 70-shooter or TOUR pro -- do your quantitative 'physical' measurements (segment speeds, acceleration/deceleration, muscle groups and their 'firing', etc.) add value to the more limited video procedure?

2. Assuming the data indicate inefficiencies and the potential for improvement, how do the procedures you recommend differ from that of more conventional instruction?

3. Finally, how do you help your student translate that quantified data/information into its athletic equivalent, i.e., a more efficient golf stroke?

:salut:

A hackers thoughts
 

I am a 90 shooter. I think that what Bio trains has value at all levels because he is training the underlying movement patterns that the geometry of the golf swing sits upon. If those patterns are improved we will need less manipulation of the geometry to correct the errors in the physics.

How I think about it is that before Hogan didn't try and create clubhead lag consciously. Rather because he built his downswing from the group up with good movement patterns this created lag. Bio teaches your body how to create force from the ground up and conserve it until you release it into the ball.

The exercises I am doing are specifically not intended to be training me in "How to hit the ball". In fact bioengine has reminded me regularly to not try and "do" any of the exercises when I play golf. If I compare these exercises with some of the TGM advice I've received ... let me give you an example. You might say to your student to make a move like skipping a stone. Now the student might be really good at skipping stones or not. The exercise will help, but it is inherently limited by the persons natural ability - or I suppose to be precise I should say natural biomechanics. Bioengine measures and provides a training program that will literally make you a better stone skipper. As you get better at that, and as you allow this improving ability to guide your physics in the golf swing, you will develop a better golf swing.

What bioengine provides, or at least the part I have dealt with him, is a personalised training program of Progressing Skills Training that specifically improve your biomechanical weaknesses. In my case some of the exercises look related to golf, but some bear almost no resemblance to a golf action.


I am no expert but the analysis bioengine showed me was understandable (although some of the graphs are pretty intense). And I can see why what I am doing helps. It seems almost too simple sometimes, but I am seeing the results in my ballstriking. So I'm a fan at the moment for sure!

I'm sure bioengine will add a more ocmplete answer, but this is a students perspective.

Thanks for providing the forum Yoda.

Thanks Weetbix

Those graphs sound interesting.

Glad to hear that there is some consideration for the Geometry , I wasnt sure whether that was considered "irrelevant" to this course of study or not.

The ball's response reflects the degree to which the golfer complies with the Geometry necessary for the shot at hand, after all. Its not a golf law or TGM law, its just a The Law. Its a round object struck by a lofted implement that is traveling a somewhat circular orbit on an inclined plane, etc etc. There is a lot of Geometry down there in the impact zone that demands precise compliance. As Ben Doyle would say "either its lawful or its awful".

Cheers

Yoda,
Biomechanic companies also use video to capture data, They place the sensors on the person and then use video to capture data. Although they capture data at full speed. To capture human motion you only need 11 hertz. A stock standard camera has a capacity of 30 hertz.When you lose data is when you slow the video down or break into frames. We don't lose data cause we don't slow the data down.

An example was the other day we tested a guy on video when we slowed down his swing it appeared the guy was engaging his lower body first. The coach and I swore he did. When we process the data and we look at his 3D data he was starting his downswing arms first. This was due to this transition was between frames.

We test and provide evaluations for many sports. In golf, Tennis and baseball, testing thousands athletes in all three sports they all had something in common. The kinetic link. They all create speed from the ground up. All three sports had similar movement patterns.

There is a natural way the body wants to natural move to create speed from the ground up. This is from conservation of momentum (starting from the ground up) and muscular loading, The muscular loading is what drives conservation of momentum.

In the golf swing we look at movement patterns and how a golfer creates speed or power. Also identify if there is a power leakage and can tell you why.

An example a golfer always hit the ball fat, what causes this. Arm deceleration to early in the downswing. What is causing arm deceleration to early in the downswing. A power leakage some where. We pin point when this occurring and why. This could be even to do with ground forces. Or muscular loading a ton of reasons. By measuring hip accel/decel,upper body accel/decel,arms accel/decel and club accel/decel, the kinetic link and muscular loading, with tell us what the human body is doing and if this is effecting your geometry. There's tons of other stuff we measure as well like ground forces, lower body stability and club dynamics.

Any level of golfer should get tested, even a beginner should get test to work out if you have a geometry problem of physics problem. Movement pattern issue.

We use our 3D data to develop a training program, which is designed for each individual, the exercises and training programs are designed to train the body to create better movement patterns or kinetic link. They are also designed to train the body how to load and fire muscle in each body segment in the right timing and sequence. You can't train your body to achieve this on the practice fairway. We are training movement patterns not geometry.

Ever exercise, drill and training program has been tested to see if they improve a certain movement patterns and body speeds. There not made up on belief systems, every thing we do is tested.

We teach people how to create better movement patterns not geometry, once we get someones movement patterns right they go back to their coach to apply geometry.

Come-on Bioengine.

If I use my Right Triceps Muscle, that's Work: Physics.

If I Push Up, Down, Out, etc, that's Alignment: Geometry.

Alignment and Work = Mechanics.

When you tell someone what muscles to use...don't you tell them which direction to use them. "Here's where you start..Here's where you end"?

I think what this demonstrates is that there can be wide differences between what different people mean by the same phrase. I think that your application of the terminology is a little simplistic Daryl, which is surprising because your intimate knowledge of TGM indicates that you recognise that we use shorthand to condense complex concepts.

The movement patterns bioengine trains are much more intricate than simple muscle movements like tricep extension. They involve timing, transition of force across body parts, multiple joints and muscle groups being syncronised and working together and opposing each other in an appropriate manner, etc. But you know that already.

Nothing in bioengines training program for me involves him directing me consciously to use certain muscles in a specific direction. It involves me executing a movement - I leave it up to my body how to do that. It learns from doing those movements. And it applies those improved movement patterns when I try and hit a golf ball. The exercises do not involve me hitting a ball, many do not involve a golf club. Many do not mimic golf movements at all, at least not in an obvious way.

Put it this way, if I took a PST exercise to the course and tried to hit the ball that way it would get VERY ugly!

It seems I'm not going to understand Biomechanics training without analysis and lessons.

Further feedback...
 

...this biomechanical analysis system has been developed in the USA and through a series of physical training exercises has lead to an improved performance in adding power to my golf swing.

Previously tested on a Callaway Centre system that indicated I was delivering only 85% efficiency for a drive for example - indicating inefficient impact readouts.

The test was then to alter these alignments with improved technique - I found this almost impossible to achieve through golf lessons etc.

The PST (progressive skills training) somehow shakes the ingrained DNA of inefficient action and with only a few sessions per week I did see a very obvious improvement.

Maybe?
 

You could ask bioengine for a webconference. That's what I did and he showed me what they do and what sort of analysis they get out of it. And of course when you can talk it's much easier to understand the concepts and ask clarifying questions.

When this first came to my attention I was thinking "Heard this before - I have the secret!" But as bioengine explained it more and more I got enough confidence to give it a go and invest the money in a screening. I don't regret it (it wasn't a big investment but not spare change either).

I do the exercises but I don't understand why they are effective. They seem too simple. But they are making a difference. The analysis that they will show you as an example is pretty cool too!

Is it possible to accelerate the pivot after impact? Perhaps its a feel isnt real deal? Shouldnt he really be describing himself as 4,1,2+3, then 4 again and then 5? The notion of accelerating the club at a constant rate for as long as you can is a good one but........refiring?

And Bio wouldnt you prefer his pivot to "brake" anyways? Did you measure him?

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=125082888 7

Yeah sure Ob,there's a few things I would like to do with his movement patterns. Although all I did was provide an evaluation.
He's a good friend and was screened out of interest.

Although to be honest we never really had time to talk heavily about movement patterns or how the body moves in the golf swing.

I was drained from being on the road for a month straight with work. We caught up played some golf with the old gear and was awesome fun.
He had a bad day and shot 2 over and I shot 3 over was the first time in 15 years I used the old gear again.
Not bad I hadn't swung a club in two months, was good fun.

Don't worry the guy is a great player and strikes the ball pretty good. Sure he can improve on his movement patterns although we all can.

Daryl,
Movement patterns is how the body moves, we teach people how to train their body to create better movement patterns or develop a good kinetic link.
Geometry isn't our field

Daryl
do you have a twin called Flat Left Wrist?

If he did, his name would be Bent Right Wrist.

That's the 2nd Time someone asked me that question.

Same answer: No. But I do think it's someone who visits but doesn't post on this site anymore. I only post on this site and rarely visit other sites.

Id suggest everyone keep their doors locked tonight. Check your back seats before getting into your cars etc. Once an operatives cover is blown, the mission is in jeopardy and a "cleaner" is often called in.

10-4?

I am expriencing at the top using #4 to pull down and at the same time #1 to push down, it seems that I can realy blast the left arm out. Is this correct pocedure for hitting or should I not to use it? However, as been discussing in here that 4 barrel hitting use right elbow to start down rather than the left #4. Please help.

The accumulators must release in a specific order:

4-1-2-3

From one of my favorite posts that YODA made explaining his 4 barrel HITTING pattern:

Sorry, I have nothing original, but why rewrite the book when you have Homer Kelley and Lynn Blake!?!?!?

Kevin