Different swings.

Here is a sequence from the same snow shovel pass. Im working on loading the #3pp (at the knuckle, top of the shaft, for drag loading) with a Slide during the backswing...... as if the Slide stops the arms backward travel and cocks the left wrist too as the Right Elbow bends. Also trying to Turn hard after my weight gets left. Im thinking its this Turning that prolongs the Hips ability to pull the Shoulders which pull the Arms that pull the Club......... "6M1 prolongation". My bad is the ARms stopping themselves at End, Slide too far, goat hump my weight towards the left toes, stall the turning, double anchors away. Im trying to fix it all by tracing back to the "roots", further down in the ground/up downswing sequence.

The first pic is the end of the Hip Slide. So I guess I could say that its my Hip Slide that pulls my Right Shoulder down (and its the acceleration of the Right Shoulder towards the ball that is defined as the beginning of Startdown. "Startdown of the Right Shoulder" so to speak and therefore the power package but there's a ton of stuff that has preceded it down below that is motivating this move of the Right Shoulder).

So I guess, EdZ, that I drag my wet mop, with a Hip Slide and then a Hip Turn. There's for sure some overlapping there too. But its a pure Slide when it all starts happen'n.






http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=126557442 8

O.B.

Not that it matters what I think, but you have a BEAUTIFUL swing. You should be VERY proud of the alignments. Great job!! :salut: :salut: :salut:

Kevin

O.B. Left Is Straight Down the Middle
 

The third photo in O.B. Left's sequence tells the tale:

His Head is centered. He has wonderful Pivot Lag (lower body leading the upper from the top) and has executed a beautiful Sweep Release. As a result, he comes into the ball with textbook Left Arm and Right Forearm Flying Wedge alignments.

Left Arm straight.

Right Arm bent.

Left Wrist Flat.

Right wrist Bent.

I have seen his action in person, and believe me . . .

It's awesome!

:salut:


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=126557442 8

I'd concur with all the above . . . O.B.'s action is certainly SEXY . . . more sexy than anything I could post. TEXT BOOK quality wedges . . .

If you want to use a model for your swing, why not use the MASTER. That's what I'm striving for in my journey. The camera angle is a little different. Not exactly the same timing through impact. A lot of similarities in these wonderful alignments.

:golf:

Kevin

Thanks guys.

Ill have to show you what it looks like whilst in the presence of the tyrant/ball. Not as good, but getting there, its a work in progress. Heck you should see where I was coming from though. Those knees still like 70's golf despite my best efforts.

Lynn has seen my double anchor , sweep release in action and thanks to his help and some great work with Ted Im an old dog with a few new tricks these days. Trying to keep the Hips turning, delay the Release etc. I can play with Drive Loading and a Sweep Release but its winter time up here and Im taking my Machine apart for some cleaning, maintenance and re calibration. This swing here is Drag Loading with a later Release point than normal for me. The feel of the ground/up pull is so awesome. Dont know if I'd ever really let it go enough to truly feel it before. Tendon stretch.

Kev, you're so right, Lynns action is very impressive, especially up close and in person as you know. Prior to meeting Lynn I had no intention of figuring out Mr Kelleys book, but upon witnessing, hearing Lynns strike, which had such a different sound and quality to it............I realized that in order to fully understand what Lynn was telling me, I'd have to understand the yellow book. So, here I am.

Sorry for the jack. The Swingers Startdown, yes ................not trying to cross pollenate recent threads but Buckets great comment about the Line Of Compression being the genesis of Homers book applies to Startdown. You need to have the LOC, the intention to take the ball Down, Out and Forward during the Impact Interval, clearly in mind during Startdown. Add a Horizontal Hinge Action intention maybe too.

Nice!
 

Loving the right arm participation! Got a pic of follow through?

Hah, nice CSI work Okie!! Ive been outed as a Hitter posting in a Swingers thread! Im trying to swing here though honest. Drag loading, Left Wrist Throw and everything. Lynn told me I should be able to do both! Heck someday Ill have a snap release I promise. But you are correct, Im very right arm oriented by nature and tend towards a Right ARm Throw.

Here ya go, from a different swing. From here I do a little Knudsononian right foot drag. Not too long, six inches maybe. You cant do it unless you left.

Dont ask my for Finish 'cause my gut starts hanging out of that t-shirt. How the heck did I get my self into this situation? I blame you Okie and that danged good start down photo of yours and Kevs strong photos from the dome and and.......

Ive found that you cant cop positions, having tried, they're a product of the forces you're applying, employing. In these photos, Im trying to load the lag in my #3 with my lower body. Something I struggle with at times. Hip Slide with a Delayed Turn. No stalling. The Slide clears out a nice path for the inside out (but still on plane) approach of the Hands. The second "clear the right hip" of 12-3, I believe. Im good with the Slide but the Turning is problematic sometimes. The flared foot really helps.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=126565091 1

That is one of the things a kinda liked...ahhem...your knees! Knee flex is pivotal for a centered and steady head. Afterall you are going down and through. I thinik there was some genius in Byron Nelson's so-called caddy-dip!

Per Tom's Instruction
 

Per Tom Tomasello's instruction...Tom says Homer is telling you how to start the club down in section "6-B-2-0 The Second Power Accumulator"...where Homer says, "Centrifugal Force, Accumulator #1, and the muscles of both forearms, any--or all--are available to actuate this assembly."

Reference Tom's Australia video series for the muscles of both forearms version of swinging and the Tomasello Letter video series for the Accumulator #1 version.

For a Centrifugal Force version, utilize trigger types 10-20-C or 10-20-E. 10-20-C per Jodie Mudd and 10-20-E per Sam Snead.

DG

Tt
 

Tom...Tom Who? :laughing9 That is what the man said there can be no doubt! :salut: Just one of the many ways to do it.

DG, wow Tom T. suggested that "actuating", firing, the #2 Accumulator should be considered part of STARTDOWN generally speaking? That would make every shot , by definition, a Full Sweep release would it not? I can see it for a short soft high wedge or something but not for full power.

In a world filled with golfers who hit from the Top, Id say Homer was more about storing the Accumulated power (#2 Angle) for a later Release. To say nothing of Float Loading during Startdown where even more #2 Angle, power, is Accumulated.

Using 'both forearms" at the same time to fire #2? Never noticed that before. Interesting. Trying to think of the appropriate Throw combinations for that one. A left wrist throw and a right wrist throw , together? I dunno. That would make for a good thread, a Release thread though.

Read the 7th edition and see where Homer references the term "Full Power".

DG

That is a fantastic position, one that every swinger should use as a reference.

One of the key reasons being a proper left hand grip, taken at fix.

Thanks EdZ

DG, I was merely responding to your words above. If this is not representative of Toms beliefs about Startdown then the misinterpretation is not mine, (for a change).

I have no problems with an arm centric perception of things. Im a bit of an arm swinger myself. The quarterback firing a long bomb throw is probably not thinking about his pivot for instance. But that doesnt mean that his arm precedes his pivot actually, sequentially. Homer is very clear that Startdown is the period of Right Shoulder acceleration. The period of Arm/Hand acceleration is later, sequentially. Hogan in the Shell's WW of Golf tape traces this move of the Shoulders (and Arms together, fully loaded Power Package) back to the movement of "the lower body". This all relates to the best drill in golf, to my mind, the Startdown Waggle.

Hogan is the Man
 

Yes, I'm wrong....Tom Tomasello is wrong...and geez we can't forget Homer...he's wrong too!!! Hogan is the Man!!! Why waste your time with TGM!!!

DG, respectfully, I don't think thats fair. Perhaps a different interpretation, but nobody loves TGM more than O.B. yourself, and many other followers of YODA. We are on the same team here...

:salut:

Kevin

DG, it was not my intention to suggest that either you or Tom Tomasello had something wrong. If that is what I have communicated then I apologize to you.

You are obviously a huge Tom Tamasello fan and I respect you for that. On the other hand I know very little of Tom Tomasellos work, having only seen the Australian videos a few times.

TGM is not the theoretically closed loop that some suggest it is. Homer acknowledged the existence of non catalogued, X procedures. Neither Lynn nor Homer were averse to them in the least to my mind. But I believe that Homer would theorize about the implications inherent in the procedure, I know Lynn sure does having discussed a few of my own, X procedures with him. It was the implications of your two armed pull down in Startdown that motivated my first comments. There are so many usable variations , trillions of them, that to say something is flat out "wrong" would be rather short sighted to my mind.

I got my butt whipped a few years ago by a guy who hit every shot cross handed. He took the game up at the age of 43 too. Amazing. I celebrate the differences and the sameness ...........but really just wish I looked more like Hogan.

PS Speaking of Hogan, at the end of the Shells WW of Golf match they gave equal time to Sam Snead. His start down thought......... a pull down of the left arm! Vive la difference.

Gear Train
 

Wonderful post, O.B. I enjoyed every word.

Regarding Mr. Snead . . .

What pulled the Arm?

:)

To be blunt, Homer was theoretically diverse to the extreme. He would never say something was wrong. Incompatible with certain other components maybe but not wrong by itself. I recall an example when during a Masters Class a student asked him if it would be wrong for a swinger to use the Angle of Approach procedure. His reply was something like:

"Well.........no.........but he's got a lot of work to do, a lot of compensations to make".

Its my opinion that the best students who learned directly from Homer embraced, lived , taught this attitude. TGM is not a method as written.

There is a guy I know of who teaches a pattern, a good pattern, his pattern. A pattern in stark contrast to his teachers pattern. He makes a lot of hay criticizing TGM for not including some of his x procedures, for being a closed loop. Its music to the ears of those that think the book is overly obtuse................"stick with me Ill show you the shortcut through the dark forest".

If it gets you where you want to go then great, its a good fit for you. They would be surprised to find that Homer would not be averse to it in any way. But Homer would also recognize any tendencies , compensations which may be inherent. (Perhaps an incompatibility too ) And that is where method teaching gives way to more diverse, informed discussion and approaches artistry.

So we have choices, lots of them. And Homer was all about options. A mind boggling array of options. On that, we should all be able to agree.

By the way, my cross handed friend ended up winning the local Champions of Champions event. Beating some 30 odd club champions, most of whom where half his age. Amazing.

Slammin Sam
 

I think you need to watch Sam Snead again (I have watched it numerous times, it's not the left arm)!!! According to Tomasello it's a 10-20-E startdown (Snead's Startdown is documented in a number of books, one that I have is "Sam Snead Teaches You His Simple "Key" Approach to Golf", per Hand Key 6: Starting Down , Pull with your left hand fingers", Snead defined it as pulling down with the last two fingers of the left hand, this approach concurs with the Ernest Jones "Swing the Clubhead Approach", I believe the 12-2-0 Swing Stroke Pattern represents most closely to the Snead approach, not Ben Hogan)...yes, there may be a ton of different stroke pattern combinations, but there are less than 10 trigger types...single or in combination.

Next, you'll have to question whether or not Hogan really started the club down with the hips?

It's not that I'm a big fan of Tom Tomasello's instruction, I'm really a big fan of the truth...in anything that I study...I believe Tommy is one of a few who spoke the truth about the golfing machine...time spent with Homer, in person, and the amount of audio recordings that Tommy had at hand to fully understand TGM. I don't know of any TGM instructor who taught TGM like Tommy...going through the whole book with his students....his three part teaching approach....a Swinging School, a Hitting School and an Advanced School (shot making with swinging and hitting). It was a complete picture with Mr. Tomasello.

DG

Play it again, Tom!
 

DG,

I am little lost. How did Tomasello say the downswing was initiated? The pulling action of the forearms, or the accelertion of the right shoulder? I probably should know given that this path is well worn, but occured to me that I was a bit vague. Do the arms move the shoulder, or does the right shoulder move the arms? Or do the hips actually move first because the intent was to move the right shoulder down plane? I have posted before that in my own stroke pattern my conscious thought is to hurtle my right shoulder down plane, but the eye of the camera suggest that regardless of my intent the hips slide tilting my axis. Thinking about hip slide is the kiss of death for me. As for pulling of the forearms that tends to disconnect my power package from its engine, the pivot.

I find it interesting that you regard TT as a TGM savant extrodinaire. I agree with OB in that Homer would not be nailed down to one pattern etc. To me any teacher that over emphasizes one pattern, or component variation for that matter, to the exclusion of all others misses the point! Either, they do not have a full understanding of all the workable patterns, or they cannot resist the temptation to have a pet pattern. TGM then becomes a method, and no longer a catalogue of workability. We are still then just looking for a magic bullet (which I have found by the way!:laughing9 ) I like what TT says. To tout his expertise as without peer is admirable from a loyalty point of view, but I think it ultimately marginalizes Tom Tomasello in the eyes of many in light of our benefactor's (Yoda) vast knowledge. Lynn certainly does not have to defend his prowess, it literally speaks for itself. A true TGM savant is not married to a methodology, ultimately honoring Homer's intent. For TT it may have been a hit and miss kind of thing. I think he had an aversion to hitting, which I think has some real advantages. It is tough to be objective, most everybody picks favorites. I found Homer's reluctance to speak adamantly about what he preferred to be quite irritating! Now I appreciate why. Like 10-20-E? Then utilize 10-20-E!

DG I must admit I was going from memory on the Snead Shells WW of Golf demonstration. I tried to find it on line but couldnt. Please put it up if you have a link. I'd love to see it again.

In terms of Hogans sequence, its well documented to my mind, by Hogan himself and others..........ground up. Here is Moe Norman's take on it.............."We're the only two guys in golf that get into a sitting position ......as we take the club back".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLZTY... 317BB&index=4

Nice clip of Moe. If I'm not mistaken, that is the voice of the guy from the Big Break who was a Moe fan (and swung a lot like him). I'm blanking on his name, but I saw him a year or so ago give a clinic in Fairfax, VA. As close to Moe as I've seen in terms of pattern (although not as straight I suspect).

the key part of that clip is the focus on the 'sit down', and the leading of the left knee.

that left knee move is very much worth paying attention to IMO.

Hogan, Moe and Knudson all had it. As does Faldo, and to a less obvious degree, Trevino.

As far as a swinger's start down, a focus on the left knee or right shoulder is a good place to 'start'. :golf:

I guess I got that song wrong!
 

Right shoulder is connected to...the...left knee.

Curious as to why the left knee Edz?

EDZ, do you mean Kelly Murray ?

Yep.

Okie - yes, that link is a powerful one. Try holding the top of your backswing and imagine a line tied from the left knee to the right shoulder. Without moving anything else, start the left knee directly left and you'll get the feel for how that pulls the right shoulder and gets the pivot into the "Snead Squat" position. A very powerful position.

LOL

That won't fit very well in the connected song, but what a great thought for G.O.L.F. Thanks for another great nugget Ed! :salut:

Kevin

Nice we're really getting into the nuts and bolts now.

EdZ, I have a slight variation on this. In my mind I have some rubber, surgical tubing that connects my left hip to my right shoulder. The hips lead, laterally as above but once left they turn to maintain the stretch. Its a work in progress for me.

Hogan did say knees and hips in the SWWOG demo but watch his left foot! Note when it hits the ground sequentially. Although I must admit it is a bit of a chicken and egg thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

Lead it not be so!
 

Gary Gilcrest told me a similar thing when I was still a whipper-snapper. Leadbetter had told him that the downswing starts with the left knee moving. Is that the same thing?

Tomasello....6 ways to start the club down (in the book if you used the hand throw you could get it up to approximately 9 or 10). You have the book read chapter 11 section 20...in the sixth edition it's trigger combinations....

It's interesting they are no knee triggers and there are no hip triggers...wonder why?

The parallel....shooting a gun!!! To set the bullet in motion you have to pull the trigger. In TGM there are 5 basic trigger types.

BTW, the thing about the forearm startdown...you need to develop an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action per 10-19-C...as Tommy says in the Australia video series, the left hip will react to the action of the right forearm. Tommy's student (Mark Evershed)calls it the "Quiet Body" action, I call it the "Reactive Body" or Hip Action. Both the Hips and Right Shoulder respond to the triggering action of the Muscles of both forearms. Even with a 10-20-C triggering action the hips still lead the shoulders. As Tommy said in his GI interview, there is no seperation between the hips and shoulders.



DG

Tomasello....6 ways to start the club down (in the book if you used the hand throw you could get it up to approximately 9 or 10). You have the book read chapter 11 section 20...in the sixth edition it's trigger combinations....

It's interesting they are no knee triggers and there are no hip triggers...wonder why?

The parallel....shooting a gun!!! To set the bullet in motion you have to pull the trigger. In TGM there are 5 basic trigger types.

BTW, the thing about the forearm startdown...you need to develop an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action per 10-19-C...as Tommy says in the Australia video series, the left hip will react to the action of the right forearm. Tommy's student (Mark Evershed)calls it the "Quiet Body" action, I call it the "Reactive Body" or Hip Action. Both the Hips and Right Shoulder respond to the triggering action of the Muscles of both forearms. Even with a 10-20-C triggering action the hips still lead the shoulders. As Tommy said in his GI interview, there is no seperation between the hips and shoulders.

DG

Okie's Action
 

DG,

There is no doubt that TT knew his stuff, and so do you. Thanks for the homework! I will do it. I tend to agree with the shoulder/hip connection. The big killer in my swing it when the right shoulder stops its down plane journey too soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJvdPb58nZw

not the best footage, but I just got away with this one. I had just enough right elbow bend to keep it in the general vacinity of my target. I have a tendency to get a little sweepy with the release. I lose a little #1, which in turn changes the relationship of the #2. I have pretty good mittens so my hand speed compensates well. I am working hard on delaying the #1 acc. For me trigger delay is mostly about the quality of my shoulder acceleration. The tendency to run out right arm as a youngster causing pull-draws, pulls and pull-hooks prevented me from missing cuts on the Hooters Tour!:laughing9 God bless that pull!

Thanks for sticking to your Tommy Guns!

It might seem like the same, but there is an important difference between using the knee, and using the hips.

If you start with the knee, it sets the right shoulder down plane. If you start with the hip, the right shoulder very often comes out over plane.

DG - I can't speak for Snead, but in my case when I really load #4 properly, #2 is also loaded, very strongly and it can 'feel' like a pull.

Dont go changing
 

Great looking swing Okie.

Why not just stay with the sweep release you mention? Do you feel your more 12-1 or 12-2?

If you asked me to guess Id say 12-1 which goes really nicely with your position at Top, Sweep Release, Delayed #1, a Shoulder Throw and then............ a Right Arm throw (not sure if you use it or not). That would be a classic set of Hitters components.

Im thinking you're done.

PS 4 Barrel, Arc of Approach procedure? You dog, you. I bet you're long long long.

Guys,

Isn't what EdZ is saying about knees then hips as a down stroke sequence exactly what Homer tells us in 6-M-1?

Maybe I'm just stating the obvious and have misunderstood the conversation?

Thanks all, I really appreciate the insight you are ALL providing!

Kevin

Very nice swing Okie!

Do you still have a lot of pulls? Only thing I see is that with your grip position (which I like), if you get the right hand a touch too high (over) at address, it is harder to keep the right shoulder going down.

I wouldn't change the grip, but just make sure your right arm is very relaxed and the right wrist is level before startup.

Dang Edz how simple is that? Thank you for the kudos as well. I pretty much hate my golf swing! So do you think the right hand is rolled and uncocked? That makes great sense to me. Thank you for that. I really appreciate your expertise. I am amazed at your willingness to help pro bono.

Thanks OB

I drive load. As for the barrels I am pretentious enough to attempt all four. I cannot for the life of me relegate the right arm to passivity, I am not that thrusting. To be honest trying (I stress trying) to use them all has impacted accuracy as much as it has power. Power golf is good golf.With hitting you have to be aware of that the right elbow is doing. That is true for swinging as well but in a different way. To me (and perhaps just me:eyes:)non automatic sweep releases can add a variable of inconsistency. As I age my hands will slow down like everything else (except for the growth of unsightly hair in my ears)Like everyone else I want something for nothing i.e. automatic snap releases!

Shoulder throw for sure. I do not have to worry about the right arm straightening...it does that all by itself it seems. I have struggled with single wrist action in that I tend to get too shut faced with it (I overdo the shaft lean at address at times)

From 175 I used to in between a 7 and a 6, now it is just a 7:)