downstroke and release 12pc...

this video makes me CRINGE in so many ways
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFQi3P2DVUo

That position is perfect.

Far better than what he has been in over a decade.

He no longer needs to 'time' squaring of the face, which has been the core issue since he moved from Butch.

All the result of a poor grip (under Haney), that was way, way too weak.

He is getting back to what John Anselmo taught him.

The 'pitching sense'.

I didn't see his latest play (can't see much from China), but I can tell that this next season will be a huge one for him again.

Just from that picture. 4-6 wins in the next year is my guess (globally)

tiger woods is and forever will be a legend of the game of golf. It kills me to see him paying this guy good money to ruin his golf swing. TIGER IS TRAPPED IN THE WRONG APPROACH

Why Ed is that picture perfect? I need support....you know the stuff....let's have the arguement for it.

Do you have the next frame in the sequence?

Notice the clubface position.

The only thing that needs to happen to have a good impact from there is the right arm straightening.

No need to try to time #3 (roll), or to hold off/arch the left wrist to save it as before, when in the same position, he would have the face much, much more open (toe up)

Now the face is at 45 degrees there.

Active (as in a hitter's thrust), or passive (shoulder turn throw) - that face is going to be square. The only way to screw up that position is to have 'center' move forward, and from the looks of it, he is well centered.

This is essentially what tiger is doing the whole machine drops down then he tries to move #4 laterally, #1 is trying to straighten down hard while Trying to hold #2, and then jump twisting to avoid colliding into the ground during release..... Yikes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j9jLwhiuEI&sns=em

Is that a teacher???? who in the world is that???

Bucket, doesn't that position means Tiger's gonna be able to maximize or use the full potential of his strength? Very few can live with that position because that position means the release that you chose, and plane angle that you selected for that release are so darn difficult to make the clubhead close by impact.

So, I'd say that picture, Tiger being the most or one of the most powerful golfer ever, will be able to make use of that advantage of his that others don't have or lack.

That position tells me he's into a pattern that requires sweep release because releasing it as early as possible will make up for one's lack of strength. But for Tiger, he can afford to delay a bit the release in order to get on that plane angle he selected, and still have enough strength to release the darn club because his strength can handle it.

Pardon the post, especially from someone who's not an expert like all of you here.

Pilgrims' Progress
 

Thanks for your post, Brian. No apology required. We're all in this together, and we're all learning.

:salut:

Nice find Air. I have a lot of respect for Ed's work.

Kevin

But all the crazy things he is "selling" for 3 payments à 29,95 is just a joke from his side..?

Yes, just a joke. Ed loves to make training aids for next to nothing and joke that he could be selling them for $$$. One of the nicest gentlemen in the business, and a big fan of Homer Kelley.

But he really meant Homer had missed a Pressure Point - in the left/front foot?

I think in our connection to the ground. I've heard that thought expressed by others.

I think it is possible to be in that release position of Tiger in the picture without having to intentionally avoid the club head from digging into the ground. Tiger just have to keep the left wrist flat and level. He's got enough PA#3 angle built-in at impact fix. His left wrist at level state is exactly on the ball. So he's not worrying about that. And because of that, he ensured accuracy. His clubface closure is the slowest ever. What he's worried, IMO, is how to close that face. He's not worried about getting it closed at impact either because it's closure rate is slowest possible already. He's worried about leaving it open. But his extraordinary strength can do it. Others can't. Advantage Tiger. Accuracy + strength. That only he can maximize the potential of. Wow. Watch out. I'm having goose bumps. Remember this: my prediction--25 majors. :)

Brianid it ain't about strength! The reason why he would dig intothe ground is because at address his shoulder to ball radius is x amount and then he drops down which would make him dig under ground the exact amount he dropped unless he makes a series of compensating moves.

By strength I mean the need for it to be able to close the face via PA3. The more PA3 angle you have, it's more difficult to close the face, hence more strength you need.

I think the shortening of the shoulder to ball radius is not a fault, but a compensation for having a left wrist that is uncoocked more than level at setup (sorry, his left wrist is not level at setup/impact fix), and then having a level and flat left wrist at impact. If he doesn't "dip", he will whiff the ball, not hit the ground.

Ed,
You know that your Doctor said not to remove the neck brace until February! Now knock it off!

No 5th Pressure Point
 

There's no question that the golfer exerts pressure into the ground through the Feet. In fact, the Feet are the first link in the "gear train" of the Pivot (Feet, Knees, Hips and Shoulders) and its Lag (6-C-0). They initiate the Downstroke Sequence (6-M-1) and act to give the Stroke its maximum Radius ("Swinging from the feet" / 7-17). However . . .

The left foot's pressure against the ground does not actually drive the Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) during the Downstroke. Hence, it does not qualify as a Power Package Pressure. Instead, that work is accomplished by the Right Shoulder and its Thrust (6-B-4-A) against the #4 Pressure Point (where the Left Arm contacts the side of the chest / 6-C-1 #4). So . . .

While the Feet initiate the chain of events, it is the Shoulder that finishes the job. It is "the fastest and farthest moving component of the Pivot" (7-13) and the only Pivot Component that is also part of the Power Package (2H). It actually transmits the Pivot Motion to the Arms and, through the #4 Pressure Point, ultimately drives the Club.

:golfcart2:

MTV's Head bangers ball
 

to be perfectly clear no matter how many pros drop their head in the downswing, and no matter how many so-called golf swing experts think it is an asset and will tell you 'it's ok look the pros do it!' it is ALWAYS a fault!!! You will hit the ball better by keeping your head in the same place guaranteed, nuff said. Sorry brianid you are very mistaken, tiger has anything but an uncocked left wrist at setup in reality he has the complete opposite, his wrists In a cocked position because of his low hands setup has both Wrists in a cocked position and both arms straight another common fault seen on the PGA tour, common as the head drop neither of these things are helping there golf swings, rather they play well despite these faults because of RAW TALENT AND BALL- HITTING SKILL just as players in previous eras were sliding the knees all around trying to get "leg Drive" this wasn't helping them, they were playing well despite it.

I believe these faults also go hand-in-hand(no pun intended) with the current fad of swinging the hands way left, which requires a cocked left wrist through impact in order for the sweetspot to come anywhere close to tracing the plane line. If the left wrist is properly level at impact, swinging way left means a bent plane line. :(

How is this different from all the trigger delay here?

Trigger delay? :confused1

Ok...you don't like that description....

How is what you said different that what is going on in the picture of Bently J Doyle? Both have the left wrist cocked for a long time...I don't care about debating an understanding of terms....I'm more interested in how what you described as swinging a cocked left wrist to the left and whatever you want to describe Doyle doing here as a different....

Seems to me what Doyle is doing.... what Eldirk is doing.... and what you described are very similar....

If you'd like to explain Trigger Delay to me and then tell me how this other stuff works....I'm ready to learn.

Bucket, the pivots are the biggest differences. Tiger is way more left than Doyle with almost the same trigger delay/lean/lag/angle/retained wristcock or ulnar deviation. Whichever is now acceptable.

Witcha! But does that make it all better?

Is it really trigger delay, or just the left arm-shaft angle being that way right from the start (i.e., setup)?

Are we sure it's in c0cked state at setup, or is it just that the grip/shaft is more across his left hand (more PA3 angle)? IMO, its unc0cked at setup, but he has huge acute angle between his left arm and shaft. That's what I call "built-in lag". At impact, his left wrist is level, so he has to make his left hand lower; hence the head drop.

Plus, isn't the head drop just a consequence of starting the DS with a lower body/hips move, which moves the left hip nearer the target, weight more on left foot/leg, and with intention of keeping the upper body cog or head somewhat fixed, your head has to move down or spine tilt away from target, hence move your head down?

It doesn't by itself make it better or worse. Just different. There is no universal correct amount of lean or trigger delay. There are SO many factors involved.......
When one major champion has tons of shaft lean and "rhythm" ala Trevino, and the other has virtually zero ala Nicklaus, the fun is to figure out how and why they both work. It is impossible to teach a specific amount of lag or lean, for example, to the masses without ruining someone along the way.

"Plus, isn't the head drop just a consequence of starting the DS with a lower body/hips move, which moves the left hip nearer the target, weight more on left foot/leg, and with intention of keeping the upper body cog or head somewhat fixed, your head has to move down or spine tilt away from target, hence move your head down?"

This is a good observation. Tigers grip was strengthened, and having a strong and level left wrist is an awkward combo if you haven't tried it. Im not endorsing this theory necessarily, but there is no point of setting the radius via the level left wrist if you have no intention of maintaining that radius, or especially, if you plan to hold the face....then you need it for support. Is that the best plan? who knows, certainly not our LBG way or Homer's way, but that's the defense.
Secondly, Brian is right here....it's impossible for your head not to go down if you shift weight totally to your left leg via hip slide while maintaining a centered head. The more centered the player and less the "leaner" the less you'll see it. (Nicklaus/Gay vs. Nelson/Trevino/D.Johnson). Like it or hate it, the vertical adds snap. Consistent??? Make your own decision, but it's happening everywhere. No one told them to do it until maybe recently. We could put pictures up all day of guy's heads going down then up, down then staying there with lean, barely down and barely up. Hundreds and hundreds of victories and millions and millions of dollars also........kind of hard to call it wrong. In line with TGM, no. Ideal for consistency? you tell me.....but outright wrong?????? Would the other make them better, or would it have made them people you've never heard of? Don't know :confused1

The delay of wristcock release is better because of the fact that the maximum clubhead speed due to the #2 angle is attained almost instantly after the left wrist starts to uncock. After that, the speed from PA #2 decreases, that is, in every Swing, the clubhead is slowing down at impact. Therefore, the closer to impact you release #2, the less time there is for the clubhead to slow down. The late release and the the sweep release have the same max clubhead speed shortly after their respective release points(assuming equal handspeed and wristcock), but, because the clubhead doesn't have as much time to slow down, the late release gives more speed at impact. :super:

Another good point. However, if speed were the only consideration, the Happy Gilmore would be even better. Do you feel that there is no such thing as too much lag or too deep? What if the player can't catch up?

there's accumulator lag...then there's clubhead lag....don't always equate .....

Correct. We are dealing with more than speed though, with a clubface, ball on ground, needing certain shapes trajectories and distances..............and there are more contributors to speed than when the left wrist uncocks. It is a big player though, and probably gets alot more attention because its more visible and measurable on video.

Interesting stuff MJ .

Is this also true in terms of club head speed in general as opposed just to the clubhead speed derived from #2? If so I didn't know that! What about max radius vs less than ? The swinger not being subject to the slowing effect etc ? Although I never did wrap my head around that one.

Homer I believe stated that the club head slowed post low point but slowing prior to impact would be new I think. Or do you mean a slowing in the rate of acceleration as opposed to a general slowing down?

Would you consider some thrust from the right side ? Maybe Im seeing things.

I know, his Release Point is really late but Ive seen that in some Hitters . Swingers start down, maybe even a shoulder turn throw and then blammo a right arm throw like skipping stones. The elbow can get pretty deep before it actually crosses over to the pulling side of the ball.

What happens after that photo of his Release Point? What does he release? How? Simu or Sequenced might be a tip off... Where's his right elbow?

I don't think slow mo will show any Sequenced. Might be wrong though. Heck what do I know about what he's doing.

Somewhere in the book I think it says something to the effective the more "snap" release or trigger delay the more the release by necessity will approach simultaneous....I just wonder how you get to the ball from there...kinda like you put yourself in that position and did your look look look and said man what do I gotta do to hit it from here??? seems complicated....but maybe not as complicated as marriage was :eyes:

Isn't it just rolling PA3 from there?

Are you sure you meant to say simultaneous?

Totally agree with the last bit .....gotta be aligned at your Release Point in a manner consistent with what you are going to fire and have it all pointed in the right direction. Lynns wooden golfers flail is the perfect tool to highlight the different options. It rules out horizontal left hand motion , guarantying Rhythm .