Not something I feel.

for swinging, and hitting, the pivot have slightly different role. each own ways will sustain lag pressure the most.

Instant Hip Acceleration for swinging... to go against the weight of the club....7-19..

Lag loading an Axe .. Vs Lag loading a string..

so.. if you decelerate.. what happens to that string.. simplest way i could explain.. answer. lose lag. throwaway...
If you are stressing an Axe... same speed what will happen? vs increasing accelerating speed.?

yes its a little to do with physics.

The PP3 lag should not "release" until the swing is almost finished.

Hitting have right forearm throw.. swinging is pure pivot + what u call wrist throw.

And sam snead is using Std hip action vs Hogan Delayed hip action..

Both can work very well .. and TGM people here prefer delayed hip.. Just make sure u understand what u are doing...

"2-M-3. MUSCLES
Unless Pivot Thrust actually drives #4 Accumulator through Impact, its assignment during that interval is more clearly defined if considered as delivery, guidance and support of the Power Package, because it may or may not have contributed anything but motion during Delivery. "

"2-M-4. BODY POWER
...To clear the fog, consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting a Swinger's essentially inert Left Arm into orbit toward Impact, or as supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitter's loaded Power Package so the Clubhead can be endowed with Pivot speed PLUS Right Triceps Speed. (Study 6-B-4, 6-C-0 and 7-12 in this connection.)"

"6-B-4-0. THE FOURTH POWER ACCUMULATOR
...As Accumulator #4, it is Pivot (Body) Power supplying the initial acceleration of the Downstroke to throw the Lever Assemblies toward Impact by the Thrust of the Shoulder Turn. (See 7-13.) "

Here are a few quotes which i found last night which support the discussion of what i was trying to express. I might be misreading Homer's original intent - if so please put me right! --Thanks!

2-M-4 suggests that the pivot blasts the left arm into ORBIT towards impact.

6-B-4-0 seems to support the fact that pivot power for swinger is providing the INITIAL movement of the power package in order to THROW the arms towards impact.

ORBIT and THROW suggest that the powering nature of the pivot is over once the power package has been blasted off. The power package is on plane and moving freely.

2-M-3 suggests that, unless the accumulator 4 is actively driving left arm through impact ( ? would this be on short strokes only which are too short to allow blast off?), then the pivot motion does not usually drive the power package through impact but moves to sustain lag pressure point 3 and PERMIT and ACCOMMODATE the correct movement of the power package within the constraints of the imperatives and essentials.

ie. once the power package is accelerated on plane then the pivot REACTS to allow the motion of the power package to trace straight line, sustain lag etc ... so the body is still moving alot ( NO QUITTING HERE) ... just that it is not actively powering the arms through impact.

In fact my current feel is that the requirement to sustain pp3 lag pressure after release and trace a straight plane line is what forces the MOTION of the pivot... especially the right shoulder going down plane beyond impact...

The distinction i see here is that Ben Doyle in the gallery videos often describes the ACTIVE MOVEMENT of the lower body around impact with the "catch the tail of the doggy" story ( where he actively "snaps" his pivot towards impact). But i wonder if this motion is actually a REACTIVE MOVEMENT in a true hands controlled pivot??

This might have already crossed the line between useful discussion and esoteric twaddle... sorry if that is the case for you!!!:eyes: :sleepy: :laughing9

Time to hit more balls and less keyboards!!:)

Swing Thoughts don’t determine HCP or PCH. Think whatever you want. Or don’t.
“It is fair to say…..” Describes Pivot Controlled Hands. If the Pivot contributes only motion, then the #3-accumulator roll is a hand manipulation. The passive pivot dictated that your hands must roll by themselves. Hip Action indicates Hands Controlled Pivot. The hands required that the pivot add the force needed to roll the #3 accumulator.
HCP are the Hands saying to the Pivot “I’m only going to hold onto the club, like a clamp; I’ll guide it for you, but you (pivot)do all the work”.

Well Said
 

Well said Bulldog! In the glossary under Axe Handle/Rope Handle is a nice differentiation between Hitting and Swinging. Regardless of what accumulators are used or not used- comparatively speaking Hitting is continuous thrust and Swinging is inital Thrust. Of course, both have continuous, constant lag pressure in the hands until after the ball is gone.

P.S. regarding the PM discussion we were having about a certain house located in North Carolina - having a greasy smell floating around it- with 5-8 rusty cars in the front lawn- YES, make the calls - line the troops up - it's time to make the hit!:salut:

Good post there degenerate wearer of granny panties. You better polish up the helmet Private Parts.

How is the Thrust different? Colonel Klingon?

Could you achieve a "Klingon "if you thrust too hard?

Nice
 

Nice Neil! Answer- Depends. You know - those adult diapers that Bucket wears!

With a Shoulder Throw Trigger does the right shoulder thrust in the direction of the left bicep in order to set the #4 pp or does it thrust toward Aiming Point?

For swinging,

there are constant debates, whether u do it with the right shoulder or left shoulder as a shoulder throw.

NOW, the reason we want to use a right shoulder is because, we want the right shoulder to Lag the left shoulder and the left shoulder to lag the arms.

Ie. the right shoulder will Stretch the whole Upper shoulder blades, and this stretched muscle will drag the arms. If this is thrown correctly, the PP4 will be felt. In another words, The pivot job is the throw One or both arms.. Using left shoulder throw ... is a bit tougher to stretch that torso.

For hitting, The right shoulder a backstop for a tricep thrust.. So the upper torso is not stretched. But the tricep muscle actively contract .

SO the shoulder throw have slightly different character to it due to slightly different role.

To answer your question, and its still an opinion , not expert opinion, Mike and Bagger might have a better explanation, I think it highly depends on which plane angle you use. The way i see it is to check it at Impact Fix, to see how the right forearm is inline with the shaft ( if u use elbow plane) or forearm below the shaft if its turned shoulder plane, That is the amount of Axis tilt you need in your shoulder. So, the shoulder need to tilt accordingly before ( thrusting) or turning ON PLANE.

The shoulder do not use aiming point as their job is to provide "thrust" by rotation.

only PP #3 uses aiming point and only use for it is Hitting, or snap release or a straight line. Which I personally do not think anybody should try it unless they already master the concept of sweep release. Personally, I can't perform aiming point for swinging but to trust the geometry of the circle and I am not losing any distance nor accuracy yet.. Doesn't mean I cannot do it yet that you can't, nor I won't keep trying :)

if that answers any of your question