naw...mean SIMULTANEOUS...makes complete sense to me...you AIN'T GOT TIME NO MORE TO SEQUENCE...they both gotta go and FAST to get the sweetspot to the ball....I'll find the reference for you....

Not in my mind....still gotta get #1 in there too....it hasn't dumped yet...so either dump it or tilt backwards......ala Bently J Doyle.....

That's an interesting question - I was talking about #2 only, and I believe that's what Cochran & Stobbs and/or Jorgensen was talking about. My hunch is that #4(pivot power) and roll power(fastest move in golf) can overcome the slowing, which would explain HK's statement. I would think Swing Vision technology could answer that question very easily.

One solution is a very strong grip and #4/#2 two barrel snap nail hammering!

that i can understand...two ways to do that one...Lee Buck/Duval vs. Freddie/Bobby Jonez....don't get the Eldrick method.

Ok Id like to see that. Cause I got things figured out the other way round currently. From Snap its easier, faster to uncork #2 down plane with the left hand flat to plane and then roll at the bottom. Sequenced. The "fastest in golf" being the roll. You know, "like a little bat".


I always associated snap more with swingers traditionally .....and their deep right elbow pulling rather than pushing .

There is a healthy amount of overlap in a sequenced release. You have to start rolling well before impact(at which point the left wrist is level). Since there is still an angle well less than 180 degs between the left forearm and shaft when the left wrist is level with any normal grip, and even less still at the point that the roll starts, you're rolling a big bat(the whole club), not a little one(the clubhead).

Exactly what I'm about to post. Full sweep release. Only a very few strong individuals can afford to wait and release pa3 late. I think this is the reason many dismiss outright a mainly pa3-based release. It's too damn hard. That's why you gotta start releasing pa3 ASAP. From transition.

Here's what I think, you experts please help me out and comment please:

1. Your left wrist, at level status, has acute pa3 angle, the most your butt palm pad and index finger can handle. You obtain this at setup. 90 degrees is ideal.

2. Left wrist must be level from top to impact to maintain the pa3 angle.

3. You start to release the pa3 accumulator right after start down. Almost simultaneous. (I start down with lower body, I.e., hips). Why? An acute pa3 angle is too damn hard to release. Immeasurably hard. So you start ASAP.

4. Pa2 is released automatically. It should be given no thought at all. The left wrist pa2 travel for fully c0cked to level is so short anyway, it's immaterial. In fact, if you release pa2 intentionally, the momentum it generates is so hard, that if you do it your left wrist will unc0ck more than level, which in turn will render pa3 release impossible.

5. Why pa3 based release with acute pa3 angle? Accuracy. With distance. Accuracy AND distance. Gotta be strong though. And by the way, you can add pa1 without any negative consequence at all; only one requirement, bent right wrist at impact as required by the pa3 angle.

I'd like to believe this is what Tiger is doing. It is what Tiger is doing. It won't hit the ground because of his pa3 angle. Damn I'm hardheaded. :)

Comments? Anyone?

Makes sense to me: Sequenced, Simultaneous and all points in between being Overlapped to varying degrees. But re the latter : #2 fires prior to #3. Uncock then Roll.

"Delivery Line Uncocking Prep" then "Delivery Line Roll Prep" with special emphasis on the Roll . You can really feel them both and which one fires first. The Swingers Flail.... thank you Homer and Lynn Blake. Knowing your Trigger , your Throw is the answer to downswing black out.

OB, why would you want to fire pa2 prior to start releasing pa3? Why do you want to lose the lag early? Why not full release of pa3 from start down, with pa2 automatically firing at release phase? This way you maximize accuracy, and have essentially same power?

Brian,

IMO, you can't release #3 before #2 and still comply with the plane. I think the first test of any golf swing discussion is whether it fits with the Imperatives.

Kevin

going in order of bolded statements.....

Jtill your statement "it's impossible for your head not to go down if you shift weight totally to your left leg via hip slide while maintaining a centered head." is NOT TRUE, try it for yourself, i can do it!... it's sort of saying, 'ya homer was on the right track with the head thing but not really when it comes down to reality cuz it's impossible to really do...' reality is based on physics, geometry and the laws of the universe, a bouncing post with an object rotating around it is no good. It is most certainly possible to shift the weight via a hip slide into the left leg and tilt the axis of the shoulders with a stationary post NO BOBBING NO SWAYING its perfectly possible and to say otherwise is wrong and is calling homer wrong.

Im gonna go ahead and call the tour player head bob wrong, if its unintentional its not wrong, its a malfunction to be refined until eliminated just as with any other swing fault. If its done consciously it is WRONG and injustice to golfdom as the fate of golfdom rests partially on the shoulders of ELDRICK....which are bouncing up and down...

It would have made them better! I can guarantee it. bouncing up and down is not adding any snap or power! no matter how much it seems like it is, this is what homer calls a SEEMS-AS-IF partially the reason for the book, to eliminate the seems-as-ifs by applying law because the golf stroke is governed by only that, the laws of the universe, physics, geometry. other things they are employing to power the swing may inadvertently cause the head to drop and so it seems that the head drop is the power move, the head dropping and jumping up is not adding anything and is ALWAYS A MALFUNCTION no matter how many majors they have.

Whip, I appreciate your response and am impressed with your confidence. Im not even going to get into the you guarantee you could make the best players ever better by not letting their head move thing, but I do want to clarify a couple of things...
(1)on the hip slide/ head dip: I should have specified that I was referring to this in the context of Tiger Woods (the man who is dooming golfdom from a head dip). What I meant was that under the tutelage of Sean Foley, where he's getting 90% of the weight left, the back shoulder IS NOT going "down plane", and low point (left shoulder) IS NOT returning to where it started, but rather will move forward (as many many many do), that it will be impossible for his head not to go down. The "totally" to your left leg is the part I should have bolded I guess. I have zero interest in trying to call Homer wrong. TGM is the groundwork for all I have done and learned and built upon, and I think it is the most complete instructional golf book ever written. If I have different views on this or that will never change that. To your totally disagreeing and try it for yourself idea, believe it or not I have. The amount of weight shift is the key ingredient though. With a centered head, centered pivot, right shoulder moving down plane, and left shoulder returning to a similar location, as Mr. Kelley described, of course it is possible. (I know cause I tried it). Mr.Kelley was a brilliant man. I also don't remember him ever guaranteeing he could make the best players in the world better or saying you HAD to do this or that as the only way..... Brilliant man. My comments on the head dip were meant to be under the Foley umbrella. I have found however, that for me personally, I learn alot more from studying the greatest players in the world by what they actually do. And why it works. Regardless of if it goes against someones suggestions or breaks a theory or two. It is always easy to say they would be better if they didn't do this or that......there's just no evidence of whether or not that's the case, especially as a rule of law. Seems way more beneficial to learn from what they actually did. There have been tons of players improved by instruction, and there have been double that many ruined. Sometimes an off the cuff conclusion about a broken rule is more than meets the eye. As you said, sometimes positions are unintentional .......and sometimes preparatory and subconscious, and other times manipulations. I've never said that I teach players to squat and jump, or encourage it. Foley, who I was referencing through Tiger, does. And sometimes its a little more complicated than "don't do that". Theory is great and I love it, but you can also learn from what's actually happening ...... even if you don't like it or it doesn't fit your mold. So Whip, please forgive my ambiguity regarding the head dip; you are absolutely correct that you can slide your hips to the left and keep your head centered without a bob........just only to a certain extent of a weight shift, with a certain shoulder plane, and tracing a certain line. I am always happy to explain my opinions if they are ones that I post, but would rather not be pinned against one of my idols as an instructor and researcher with only pieces of the story. (Mr.Kelley used everything he could get his hands on or that was available to him to cultivate his theory and ideas, and never called it a done deal. I think he would have his followers do the same. To cite him as an inspiration and idol, and to try to continue to learn and build from the wealth of information he gifted us is how I would assume he would be the most honored. I hope nothing I ever do or say gives any impression otherwise.) :salut:

What would you then to maintain the shoulder to ball radius if you fire the lower body with lateral movement? You would have to intentionally lift the head/shoulders a bit by straightening your spine a bit, right?

Wouldn't that be less easier compared to just unc0cking at setup our left wrist more than level (which is what would be at impact) to approximate the amount of shoulder-ball radius shortening?

For starters -

1. No it doesn't, a level wrist is partially uncocked. You clearly don't know the definition of "level".

JT a true Homer
 

I don't care what you do, as long as you know why you do it. -- HOMER KELLEY

Is this what you believe Eldrick is doing or trying to do? I don't see evidence of this....shoulders closed....left palm still karate chop? Elbow bordering on perverted pitch? How can #3 kick in at transition given the position he's in at delivery?

Point / Counterpoint
 

Whack! Whack! Serve and volley!

Enjoying the matches, guys: JT, Whip, Mizuno Joe, Brianid, Kevin Carter, and Bucket.

Most especially, I admire the sportsmanship.

Competitive spirit?

You bet!

Mean spirit?

Never.

:salut:

This is a pretty astute question...you've essentially described the difference between Swinging and Hitting....

BUT keep in mind....the WHEN you fire/Trigger #2 (your release) is up to you the golfer...I don't think OB or B.O. or whatever his name is was suggesting that you throw immediately from the top (you can)....just that you throw sometime...when is your choice....

It's Swinging...it's SEQUENCED....#2 uncocking starts FIRST in the sequence....then #3....that's Swinging....

your second question .... why not let #3 go....well heck yeah...why not...then you'd be HITTING....you'd be releasing #3 AND #2 SIMULTANEOUSLY....

the BEAUTY of the SYSTEM....HOMER KNEW IT....the other thing he knew was THE IMPORTANCE OF RIGHT ARM PARTICIPATION.....NOT JUST THAT IT PARTICIPATES....BUT HOW IT PARTICIPATES....IT SUPPORTS THE LOADING....SUPPORTS THE LEVER ASSEMBLY BEING LOADED...

HITTING FOREARM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07e23...eature=related

SWINGING FOREARM



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQv6PdUda7U

I know definition of "level". What I mean in there is that at "level", the left arm-shaft angle must still be huge. I want a still substantial angle despite it being slightly unc0cked already. I want it level at impact, so at impact, I still want the pa3 angle as angled as possible. But yeah, it's partially unc0cked, as a necessity of maintaining huge pa3 angle as possible.

Start pa3 AFTER start down/transition, not transition. Tiger has a stronger grip, so an already releasing pa3 will look like that karate chop at delivery.

Plus, I believe he's still delaying it a bit to preserve "his" pa3 angle. If he will increase that pa3 angle, he wouldn't have the need for that delay and be able to release it fully right after transition. For his height, he will look unusual and funky as he has to really bend those knees and hips to allow the more pa3 angle.

Hello Mr. Bucket,

Would it be possible to be a HITTER (pa3 and pa2 rekeased at same time) using all left arm, with pa1 releasing only at delivery phase as an ADD-ON and is completely optional. In the golfer's mind/intent, it would be just pa3. I know pa2 will be released as well, but that golfer is not thinking about pa2 at all. In fact, he is consciously avoiding too much release of it beyond a "level" left wrist.

So, it's all pivot and left arm releasing the pa3 (aka supination Mr. Hogan made famous) right after transition with a huge pa3 angle. I "feel" it's swinging, not hitting, mainly because it uses the left side and the pivot.

I meant more of what bucket pointed out, pa3 and pa2 simultaneously, though I don't think it's necessary to think about the pa2. As I said, I think efforts should be avoided that will "encourage" pa2 to release because IMO that will make you lose my pet pa3 angle beyond level.

Re plane, would what you said still apply if after transition you get down to elbow plane or, as pointed out by bucket in another thread, you get down to the plane you choose consistent with or appropriate with the pa3 angle you have?

Hi Brian,

Many planes are available along with many release types. From your post, I was just envisioning #3 kicking out from the top over the plane with no chance of recovery. I think Homer emphasized 4-1-2-3 for a reason... Brian, please understand I am learning too. I'm gaining a much better grasp of what Homer is looking for, but have a long way to go as far as intelligently discussing advanced application. I'm also very interested in hitting procedures right now, and looking at everything through those eyes.

Kevin

In order to get this "huge" PA3 angle, are you holding the club at the base of the little finger of the left hand, instead of placing the butt of the club up under the heel pad? :confused:

What the Colon Saunders said there.... and

Research Homers Lag Pressure which relates to Acceleration and Mass. It is not the same as common golf speak's "lag " or left wrist cock. One is a pressure measured in psi the other is an angle measured in degrees.

#3 can not precede #2. They can go at the same time however or #2 can go first. It relates to the physics of Hitting vs Swinging. If you thrust on the aft of the shaft against #1pp you will roll #3 yes and #2 will get thrown out in the process with some help from the direction of thrust and the pull of CF. Simultaneous Release. No way around it either. Swingers can with their left hand turned to plane throwout #2 down plane however with the #3 firing later . Sequenced. These are different applications of the wooden golfers flail that Lynn and Homer used for demonstrative purposes. The golfers flail being different than the farmers flail in that no horizontal left hand motion is allowed, possible given its construction.


To undo #2 angle is to accelerate the club head . Homer called it Velocity Power. Makes sense to me that power and velocity are good things to apply to the ball so with that in mind why do we try to hang on to it? Delayed Release of #2 should have no "hanging on to it". Wouldn't do that with a hammer when striking a nail. Hammer the thing hard. Its not how hard you hang on to it but how hard you uncock it (later being better of course, smaller pulley wheel )

This is non automatic (left wrist throw) swinger type thinking. The golfers flail for the swinger. Uncock hard towards the plane line and then let it roll over . Uncock then roll. Sequenced or as MJ points overlapped to some degree.

PS don't try the hard hammering thing without a roll at the bottom .... a hard left wrist throw with a hold off can hurt your left wrist... .

jtill, well that makes sense. my only concern was making sure that golfers aren't reading something like "you cant keep your head still its impossible" on a golfing machine forum. I think it's important though to not give the impression that this stuff is just theory, because its been proven by law. I had a conversation with a pro trying to tell me that the golfing machine "theories" all go out the window when you get on the course, no they don't. The information outlined in the golfing machine is based on law. It is always with you, always against you, major winner or duffer, on the range, on the course, or in a classroom these laws, not just 'theories' are ever present. :salut:

Butt of grip/club under the heel pad. However, to to have as acute as possible pa3 angle, the other end of the grip I pull it up more (nearer the wrist) towards the palm as possible where the index finger can still hold on to it tight (it's actually on the palm already, NOT on the index finger; it's actually on the callus directly behind the big knuckle of index finger). So it's really as across my palm/hand/arm as possible without sacrificing stabilization of the grip. And to further ensure the acute pa3 angle as possible DURING the swing, especially when pa2 kicks in, I really HOOK my right little finger over the knuckle of my left index finger. I find that when the pa2 releases, the pa2 momentum/inertia would always make my left wrist unc0ck more than "level" state. My solution, in addition to keeping the left wrist flat or slightly bowed, is to also REALLY hook the right pinky over the knuckle of index finger. I find that concentrating on this, to my surprise, is more effective than concentrating on a bent right wrist and pp1. And yeah, I also concentrate on pp2 (to achieve the flat left wrist), but not just the last 3 fingers, I also include the index/1st finger; it prevents unc0cking beyond level. I think this is the main advantage of the overlapping grip, you can use all the fingers of left hand, you need all for that delivery line roll, pa3-based release, right?

I correct myself, I should have said in there release of pa3 AFTER start-down/transition.

I understand what you're saying. But I tend to prefer rotational power than velocity power. Why? It's because I don't think there's any need to put your mind on pa2 release. It will release no matter what you do. It won't only if you don't roll/release pa3 and you just make a pure lateral/horizontal motion of your body and left hand.

But once you roll that pa3, pa2 WILL release. Maybe for people who can't turn their body for whatever physical limitations, velocity power is the priority. But for those who really turn, who really pivots, rotational power is definitely the way. Power would in my estimation be almost the same. The difference is ACCURACY. Hitting the sweet spot more often. Which if you have, you can give it all you've got.

did you get the book yet?

Not Bucket but

-the left arm being situated where it is, can only pull. It can not push. Pull being Swinging and Push being Hitting. The right arm however can pull or push , depending on where the right elbow is vis a vis the hands. But its a big load on the right elbow to right arm swing . Imagine that shot putter throwing the shot like a baseball pitcher ....he'd rip his elbow apart. The club is lighter of course but... one can feel the twinges as the right elbow approaches pitch elbow with an active right arm.

-Hitting and Swinging are not defined by their Simultaneous or Sequenced tendencies . It is possible to Swing and be Simultaneous. Accumulator #4 for pivot strokes then 2 and 3 together but initiated by a roll of the left hand off the plane. So (4, 2/3) three accumulator swinging firing order as opposed to (4, 2, 3).

- For all but the shortest of shots the left arm is not moving of its own muscle power . Fro pivot strokes the inert left arm is stretched by extensor action and pulled by the turning pivot , the left shoulder . Pulling the club with the left arm can pull the left arm off the chest .. Release . Better to turn the Pivot and let the left arm be "throw off" later by the slowing of the pivot.

Was excited/hoping to read it this holidays, but hasn't come yet. May have been a blessing, if it arrived I would now be having headaches all day. :D You'll know, if I stopped reading/online/posting means got it already. :D Probably stop posting for...what?...2 years? :D

Or on the contrary: A lot questions about what this means and how it works...

Thanks OB. That's a lot you gave me there.

Re the inert left arm, would intentional supination or ccw rotation of the left forearm/wrist/hand and external rotation of the left upper arm to release the club via pa3 during the down stroke in "violation" or not in accordance or inconsistent with the rule of the inert left arm and law of the flail?

no...you can actuate the accumulators "manually"...it's up to the golfer....automatic vs. non-automatic release types....

4 barrel hitting...

but Hitting is gonna eventually stress the shaft differently than swinging....that's why you gotta position the right forearm in a way to PUSH the sweetspot....the sweetspot will align "looking at the ball/plane line" earlier....

So have a look at the cattle man's crack....wooooooo!!!! Here we come Brokeback Mountain! Coachman's crack....Swinger's love a working man's crack :happy3: This cat will even discuss different cracks with you!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNKPIOelTgA

Note how the forem is aligned with the right shoulder here...backstop for PUSHING....pivot brings the rightshoulder fowward...then the right elbow right tricep LAUNCHES THAT MOFO OFF THE BACKSTOP LAUNCHING PAD WHICH WAS SET IN MOTION BY THE PIVOT....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfeD7kDOMWo


Or maybe if you don't like a big burly type...you can get you a toofless mullet fireball....here's some more DRIVE LOADING....LAUNCHING PAD PIVOT...PUNCHING...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js6_WAS-Ay4

Note the steep shoulders...Note the "shutty-ish hockey blade sweetspot" ... that stick is rectangular...so he's loading for Hitting...that the lil' edge of the stick...the broad edge...Note the PUNCH ELBOW....elbow aligned for DRIVE LOADING...

NO LOADING FOR SWINGING IN HOCKEY....BAD: Forearm aligned to pull....GOOD: Forearm aligned to PUSH...Slapshot/Punch/Open Palm Strike/Shot Put vs. Forearm aligend to whip crack/fly cast/karate chop/slap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIg7Q0oI84M

So you gotta pick whether you like a Coachman's Crack or a Backstop Blastoff :confused1

I like the SWING of the coachman. What do YOU prefer?

slapshot........

When you read it, you will learn that you can't have a lot of #3 and keep the left wrist level! [-(

interesting how the hockey player hits the ice first, the ice being hard deflects the stick and the kick of the shaft in that short distance between hitting the ground and the puck, golf being quite different as we stress the shaft with the loading action, without any ground resistance until post-impact as golfers hit the ball first, then the ground. hopefully!