Why? Why? Why? (10 character rule? This forum don't want a man of few words? :D)

Why? Why? Why?

Baby they were born that way!
 

The hockey player looks to my eye to be using what we'd call a Shoulder Throw .....
His active shoulder takes his bent trail arm close to the ice before he thrusts, bends the shaft along the fore and aft axis against the ice. Sticks bend in that direction far easier than they do in the other direction (top / bottom) given the rectangular design of the shaft when viewed in section. They were made that way.

The horizontal hinging fans will also like to point out the rolling club face er blade post impact. Cant shoot it 100 mph with vertical hinging. The closed face approach to impact is undone during the contact with the ice but releases . The puck leaves square to the blade but spins like a frisbee to make it fly. No backspin. Vertical has it place though....for a high flip shot etc .

I have this suspicion that one reason hockey players make good golfers is that they immediately get how the ball needs to be stuck with a closing face. Well that and the fact that girls love a guy in smart golf attire.

That's why they make good golfers - they don't over-accelerate their hands or as Ben would say, they don't add. :thumright

Never did know what he meant by that.

In Ben's tire drill, one bounce is OK, but more than one means that you added! :naughty:

Still a little foggy, although it might be the eggnog . Merry Christmas LBG.

So the bounce off the impact bag indicates you've added ....what? Can you thrust , Hit and not add? I might be showing my lag of impact bag experience here. Tried a golf car tire once with Yoda ..... one time I pounded some old kids goalie pads I strapped to the stairs in the basement till my wife complained about the noise.

Why is lots of pa3 inconsistent with level left wrist? Care to elaborate that MJ? Higan has both. I find it hard to believe they're inconsistent. You think same goes true for lots of pa3 angle and level left wrist?

For JUST pa3 (with no acute pa3 angle), maybe they're inconsistent. That I can dig, I think, for now, without the yellow book. If you want the power of pa3 roll, and you've got not much pa3 angle, makes sense not having a level left wrist because you need velocity power from pa2, hence you would have to fully unc0ck your left wrist beyond level to maximize pa2 velocity power.

But if you got acute pa3 angle, your pa3 rotational power would be enough, no need for pa2 velocity power because you've already got huge/longer clubhead travel, hence momentum before hitting the ball is bigger. But to roll that pa3, you've got to have level left wrist, otherwise you will be shortening the arc and lessening the pa3 angle, thereby removing the longer clubhead travel/arc and slower clubface closure rate, respectively, brought about by the acute pa3 angle.

What do you think MJ?

I see str8 4-barrel hitting....angled hinging on flat plane....I see layback in a bunch of them hockey shots....paddle wheel motion...drive out...red meat hitting
HITTING
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1HUU...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJnKTtS9t3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lLiS5Hf4oA
SWINGING
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1l33...eature=related

Not swinging from the feet, no big hip turn turning the shoulders but yes red meat hitting for sure. Right elbow positioned for the out and out push. Not even close to a side arm throw like some golfing hitters do.

I dunno about angled , I see (and feel) a ton of blade rotation for the basic low slapper. All that bending in slow mo may distort the look of the face for a bit but It does roll over quickly.

Its a different deal maybe, that disc wants to be spun so it flies like a frisbee.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=132487169 8

looks like layback to me....

What does the amount of deflection of the shaft of that hockey stick affect the ability for the club face to angle hinge versus horizontal hinge?

hockey is hockey golf is golf, while there are similarities in a lot of sports, its the details of what you're trying to accomplish in that sport that makes the difference in technique and their IS a difference.

Clearly....BUT ..... there is a broader point to be made here...you get it ....many don't....

Hockey is hockey YES....but there are many cats that know golf that DON'T KNOW SQUAT ABOUT....HITTING.....There are plenty of golf guru's that make millions of dollaz that think Hitting is a "punch shot"....there are PLENTY....maybe even the majority...of GSEB's, GSEM's GSEDizzlewizzles GSE-ain't-got-no-apostolic-succession...that don't understand Hitting...MUCH LESS TEACH IT.

So don't miss the broader point here...Hockey's got many Hitting Alignments, Hitting loading, Hitting Hinging, Hitting Paddlewheel Motion, Hitting Drive Out, Hitting Layback and Closing, Right Forearm alignment, support and powered.....It don't just happen in Golf...but we can use G.O.L.F. to make it happen and broaden our understanding...and make it accessable to folks that don't get it.....remember in the book HOmer says that his system could be used in other sports...WHY NOT HOCKEY? Stick game on an angled plane....Homer used many examples outside of golf to illustrate his principles....same thing going on here....sometimes it helps to see similar stuff going outside of golf....the geometry is applicable to many sports....so is the physics....just trying to get Hitting its proper due.

Don't forget though, how important the right arm is here.

Bucket - that is the key here.

Tiger has moved the 'closing' to the right place, from a timed left wrist flip (which only works well by CF), to the straightening right arm and pivot throw out.

With the left wrist level, the #3 angle is whatever it is, no adjustment is possible. To increase #3, you must cock the left wrist bringing the shaft closer to the forearm, but then the left wrist is no longer level. The wrist cannot be both cocked and level at the same time. :hand:

Yes you can. While the left wrist is level, without c0cking or unc0cking it, you can adjust the pa3 angle.

The butt of the grip is trapped under the palm heel pad. That's a constant. Now, to adjust the pa3 angle, all you have to do is move the portion of the grip lying on the other side of the hand/palm. With your left palm in shake hands position, you just lower that portion of the grip (more down away from the palm, more towards or actually ON the index finger) while keeping the butt of grip trapped on heel pad and you'll get lesser pa3 angle. To have more pa3 angle, while keeping the butt of grip trapped under the heel pad, you move up or higher the portion of the grip on the other side of the palm/hand (more towards the palm, away from index finger).

There you go MJ.

That puts the grip parallel to the base of the fingers and I've never seen a good player do that, especially Hogan, who is very specific about it on pg 21 of 5L! :read:

Yup agree. But that's in response to your previous assertion that it can't be done.

Anyway, I think compared to other players, Hogan's left hand knuckles are more PARALLEL to shaft at delivery position. You can see it in all his face-on delivery position pics/vid sequence. From that position, what will he (and Tiger) do? Pa2/unc0ck/velocity power? No way. It's pa3/roll/supination.

Hitter's Honor
 

You're on the money here, Bucket, and in your own inimitable style.

As usual.

:salut:

Now, what say you about Arnie's steep backstroke shoulder turn, the steepest of all the major champions? (Same as the hockey player Patrrick Kane with his slap shot in your prior post #129). Especially when coupled with what has been described by some as a flat arm swing? Address the 'closed' clubface if you think its relevant.

Here are photos you posted in another thread. Feel free to redirect us if it serves the purpose. If you prefer, I'll pop this post over here: http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/thread8528.html







What's going on here?

:confused1

P.S. If our mutual friend Eddie Cox wants to chime in here, I'll be the first to take a ringside seat.

he moves his right shoulder up the plane for backstroke and it goes down that same plane for the downstroke....

it does not rotate flat then on plane as with standard, he is rotating the right shoulder up and down the turned shoulder plane both directions.

what this has to do with tiger, i'm not sure

Looks to me that it's the shaft that's flat because of the level, bent right wrist, rather than the arms, which are as steep as the shoulders.

Head'm Up . . . Move'm On!
 

Agreed, Whip. But then, this thread has been 'off topic' for quite some time. In fact, the more recent posts (and the continuing discussion I have in mind) have nothing to do with Tiger. Yet, they are extremely important in their own right.

So, we'll soon move these last few pages to a new thread. Our cut-off point will be arbitrary. After the move, those wishing to continue the discussion can do so there. Meanwhile, pending the move, keep posting here.

Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fh1dnspEHw


:salut:

What is going on here in my humble estimation is perfectly executed beautiful GEOMETRY derived from the Angle of Approach as described in 2-J-3 using the surrogate 10-5-E

the ANGLE of Approach straight line through the Impact and Low Points is its geometric equivalent. So the two procedures are always interchangeable, but the “Arc” is the most compatible with the “On Line” Swing and the “Line” with the “Cross Line Hit” (7-23) and herein they are so paired.

The straight line ANGLE of Approach Delivery Line changes the Physics of Impact because the centered Angular Clubhead Momentum becomes an uncentered Linear Momentum out toward “Right Field” without ever returning to the original 10-5-A configuration during the Follow-through. This just arbitrarily requires a 10-5-E Closed Plane Line with a steeper Plane whose Angle agrees with the new Clubshaft motions so it can maintain a straight line relation to a straight line per 2-N-0. There is no Angle of Approach to an Angle of Approach procedure because while the Forearm “Traces” the Delivery Line the CLUBHEAD VISUALLY COVERS IT. But remember, the new 10-5-E Plane Line is also the Angle of Approach regardless of the Right Forearm alignment (7-2-3, 7-3). So with every change in Ball location, the Plane Line changes and the Hitter has rotated BOTH Grip AND Plane Line. Per 7-23 this is the “Wheel Track” procedure. An Address procedure mentioned in 7-9 is very helpful with this variation and its closely related to 7-3.

10-5-E is CLOSED...Angle of Approach is IN TO OUT...thus...AP is using a surrogate delivery line and plane angle...thereby his shoulder turn is STEEP...like the steepest ever....but this component is PERFECT for the SELECTED delivery line and steeper 10-5-E plane angle...also the REQUIRED INWARD HAND PATH mandated by the Angle of Approach procedure....

Is the swing really "flat"? Naw...the shoulders are STEEP and it looks "flat" because the left arm is not lifted above the "shoulder line"...this is PERFECT geometric alignment for angle of approach hitting as the pivot is the launching pad and the rigth shoulder is the backstop (in motion) by which the right forearm DRIVES the sweetspot out in a SIMULTANEOUS release...thus note the "shutty" clubface (maybe slightly over shut if we is picking at straws)...but the Kang is loading the PRIMARY LEVER cuz he is HITTING he's not loading the Secondary Lever...No quarter turns required....no faces laying on planes...clubhead is driven OUT ....elbow is punch ...release is simultaneous....and the NATURAL hinge action is angled....



Shoulder steep...look at the shoulder line and how it is almost perfectly lined up with the line that would connect the right hip to the left knee...hips slanted to match the shoulder turn...steeeeeep....primary lever not raised above the "backstop"...the right shoulder PUSHING OVER the Primary Lever Assembly (which is what is being loaded)...the left arm never above the right shoulder so no "timing" or "slack" or "waiting" required for the primary lever to line up with the right shoulder...the right shoulder can IMMEDIATELY commit to its function of PUSHING DRIVING the primary lever DOWNPLANE...and then the right forearm PUNCH...driving the sweetspot OUT to the ball with angled hing action...BEAUTIFUL EFFICIENT GEOMETRY....misunderstood....I had no appreciation for it...but is AWESOME!



steeep shoulder drive out....

Here's another beauty....AP on the AOA Procedure...note how the Primary Lever's top leg/segment the left arm is ALWAYS below the shoulders...this way the right shoulder (dual agent) is in a position to PUSH the primary lever DOWN .... from their it acts as the LAUNCHING pad for the Right Arm to DRIVE the sweetspot OUT OUT OUT to the ball...


Note the shutish clubface...this is due to the LOADING....Palmer has forgone the "quarter turn" involved in Swinging Loading the Secondary Lever...This the sweetspot is NOT rolled to the face of the plane...It is more cutting the plane...thereby aligned for Angled Hinging...thus the Right Foream is PUNCH and thereby aligned to the Loading procedure....like the hockey cats....DRIVE LOADING....but one thing to be attentive to...it is the SWEETSPOT THAT IS BEING DRIVEN OUT OUT OUT TO THE BALL....NOT YOUR HANDS PER SAY....AS SOON AS THE HANDS "FLEE" THE CLUBHEAD/SWEETSPOT WANTS TO LAY DOWN AND YOU HAVE JUST MIXED PROCEDURES AND TURNED YOUR SIMULTANEOUS RELEASE INTO A SEQUENCED RELEASE....AND JACKED UP THE LOADING....

IT AIN'T THIS.....

IT'S THIS....



How beautiful is that right forearm flying wedge????

Ain't No One Armed Bandits
 

Hitting the proverbial nail on the head. So tired of being dissed by those using one armed (left) models to disprove lag pressure.

I've found teaching hitting to rookies to be the fastest road to improvement. Add in the MacDonald exercises and we are golden.

Loving reading and learning from all theses great posts!

Kevin

MONEY.......

PRIMARY LOADED....(not hot on the archy..but "insurance")

Mr. Bucket
The original question!
Tigers Father did a fine job. All the new teachers seem to interject their ideas without analysis of what Dad spent years building.

To the picture.
For swinging- that is a fine arm, hand, club position but -What now? I do not see a strong platform that will get him through impact. Has he lost his tremendous pivot lag? with REPEATABLE RHYTHM?

HB

Core rotation - best I've ever seen. :king:

You need an eye exam! :eyes:

Yup.

What about Tiger then Bucket? How's he going to Release from there? I see a Right Arm throw from him these days in some videos . Might be wrong though. Sure looks a like an effortful right arm though . Not just Extensor Action, nope.

Has Tiger got another layer added to his 3 layer dip?

Different grips , different hands to plane ......different right arm throws but maybe they're both 4B hitting? Tigers in a different position with his elbow, his #1 pp isn't looking at the ball i don't think. Hmmm.

I dunno.

Haha 3 layer dip, nice. Sounds like taco bell

Can You please direct me to clarity on the above quote?

Thanks.

I do want to note that AP has instructed that {the club is PULLED down with the left hand not pushed}

You do know that I have found NO physics contribution to the golf swing made by the "sweetspot". Only its contribution at impact.



HB

OOps didn't mean the Snare type dip. Was just thinking about three accumulators with Thrusting added , making for four. Not sure though. Bucket always makes me think about food for some reason. Fried chicken , ribs, pulled pork , heck pushed pork even you name it.

duplicate post sorry

Sure...imagine if you stand the shaft up vertical and then move the hand "right" or "toward the plane line"...the shaft is going to "lay down" and the clubhead will "fall behind" and the face will "lay on the plane" more...all Swinging "moves"...


You can see it here....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuYp_f8JdPQ

Furyk drops from vertical to "on the inclined plane"...but if you are already on the inclined plane and your hands move "out and away from you" you can have the sweetspot falling underneath and shift the plane/plane line out to the right...plus since we are discussing Hitting...this can change the loading procedure unintentionally...

If you arch your left wrist like Palmer...it's probably gonna feel like a pull...Trevino said the same thing...but now question they have the right foream aligned to Hit and are Driving the sweetspot out rather than pulling...in my opinion...heck Furky "feels like" he swings the club like everybody else.....feel ain't real...real is real.

[You do know that I have found NO physics contribution to the golf swing made by the "sweetspot". Only its contribution at impact.


I have no idea what that means...can you explain?

thanks Bucket;

I have thought of AP as a swinger:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tWrTCRBOQw

who , because of elbow at the side, and, and, because he has very little #3 accumulator(little #2 at impact) he has a broad sweeping release(big pully) the opposite extreme of TW.

AP said to pull down in his and Chris Schenkels 2 lp instruction album of the 60's

The "sweet spot" ref. is -see my Lab Thread below- I do not see any physics that are sweet spot controled. The left hand is controling for clubface and putting the face on the ball is a computer learned event. This subject deserves conversation because I believe "sweet spot" is not what it is thought to be or do.

HB

If AP swings...then WHO Hits?

Haven't stayed up with the sweet spot thread....I'll have a look...I'm certainly no physics type...but seems to me the loading/stress on the shaft is different if the face is laying on the plane vs. if it is cutting the plane?

You can "pull down" and then Thrust, Hit. Hitting with a Swingers Drag Loading in other words.

It isn't 12-1 Drive Loading no, but it is Hitting ..... Didn't our own Luke once tell us that he employs a Swingers Startdown?

4 Barrel as I understand things anyways.

When you see that delivery picture of Tiger, why do you guys all see that Tiger has to release thru hitting procedure? You think the only way to nail that ball at that position is ONLY thru a hitting procedure? I don't think so.

IMO Tiger can release that thru PA3. Why do you guys ain't even considering it at all? With PA3 you can accelerate up into peak clubhead speed by impact. At that position of Tiger, PA2's gonna give that PA3 a hard shove, pushing and helping the left wrist to release thru PA3 and accelerate clubhead speed into the ball. With Tiger's strength, he CAN accelerate and reach that peak clubhead speed thru rotationalpower/PA3-based release that's otherwise unreachable by someone of lesser strength and/or if tmain release mechanism is thru velocity power/PA2-based.

Are you guys really not even considering this, or are you avoiding it's discussion for whatever reason?

Mr. Yoda?