Jeff.

The idea is to abandon the fixation on the physical clubshaft.

End Game (#2)
 

Wherever the 'joining' (of Clubshaft and Sweetspot Planes) occurs, the Shaft has moved off its own Clubshaft Impact Plane and onto the Plane of the orbiting Sweetspot. In the 'un-joining' (Release), it moves off the Sweetspot Plane and back to its own Impact Plane.

You "feel" this because that is exactly what is happening. During the Backstroke, the Clubshaft and Sweetspot have become one.

While your words read more like a Golfer's Creed -- This I Believe -- than a scientist's hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis, you are correct. The orbiting Sweetspot dictates the precise Plane of Motion. The intersection of that Inclined Plane (of the Motion) and the Horizontal Plane (of the ground) establishes the Base Line of that Plane, i.e., the Sweetspot Plane Line. It is this Line that the orbiting Sweetspot traces. The Release Swivel that "simply . . . squares the Clubface" -- and simultaneously produces the Maximum Transfer Power of the #3 Accumulator and assures Rhythm (6-B-3-0/A) -- also rotates the Clubshaft around the Sweetspot. Thus, the Release Swivel prepares and enables the Clubshaft for its own tracing through Impact of the Clubshaft Plane Line.

Conceptually, no new news here (but I appreciate your quantifications and will accept your word for them). We are agreed on these two points:

Fact: The Sweetspot resides outside the hosel at Address and Impact.

Fact: During the Stroke, they often occupy the same Plane.

Therefore, one of two conditions must exist:

Door #1. The hosel is rotating to accomodate the Sweetspot's orbit; or

Door #2. The Sweetspot is rotating to accomodate the hosel's orbit.

Your prior position was Door #2.

Which door now, Jeff?

Words and Pictures
 

That would be Clubshaft 'droop'. Thanks, chbkk!

Bambam . . . Thanks for your imbedded images in post #154. HELP here with a new imbedded post image!

http://www.15thnewyorkcavalry.org/Media/charge.wav


:smile:

After the fact: Thanks, Ben!

:salut:

chbkk, when you want to display an image inline, instead of using the insert link button, try the insert image button. It looks like this:



It works just like the insert link button but displays the image right in your post.

Yoda - my answer is neither 1 or 2 in terms of keeping the clubshaft on-plane. My answer is 1 when it comes to hitting the ball with a square clubface. Both the sweetspot and hosel rotate at the same rpm, but only the sweetspot hits the ball.

The way you worded/posed your latest question made me think of this quandary in a different way. You used the word "accomodate" and it changed the way I think of the situation. I think that there are two factors in play.

Factor 1.

Moving the clubshaft in space in a certain way (on-plane) so that one can create an overall club shaft arc that is symmetrical to the ball-target line, and that will allow the clubshaft arc to be in-to-square-to-in with respect to the ball-target line. If one was using a dowel stick (equivalent to a clubshaft without an attached clubhead), then one could paint the last 2" of the peripheral end of the dowel stick red, and the idea would be that one would want to get the red area of the dowel stick square to the ball by impact.

Factor 2.

The clubhead is an attachment at the end of the clubshaft that extends out at roughly a right angle relative to the peripheral end of the clubshaft and a golfer wants to hit the ball precisely in the center spot of that extension (which we call the sweetspot). Presume that the clubhead width is 4" and that the sweetspot is extended 2" away from the peripheral end of the clubshaft (which we call the hosel).

An experienced golfer knows that while he is swinging the clubshaft around his rotating torso with his swinging arms, that he needs to rotate the clubshaft in space in order to keep the clubshaft on-plane throughout the downswing. Now (when a clubhead is attached at right angles to his clubshaft) he is faced with a second need - he needs to square the sweetspot at impact. A golfer knows that his clubshaft will undergo a 90 degree rotation between the delivery position and the ball. He also knows that he must get the sweetspot (which is extended 2" away from the end of the clubshaft) to hit the ball squarely. He therefore has to adjust his swing to accomodate that specific need. In other words, he needs to stand 2" further away from the ball so that the sweetspot (and not the peripheral end of the clubshaft) hits the ball. He then performs the identical swing as before, and the clubshaft still rotates 90 degrees between the 3rd parallel and the ball, but because he is standing 2" further away from the ball, the hosel will end up being 2" away from the ball when the peripheral end of the clubshaft is square to the ball-target line. By making that accomodation, the sweetspot will hit the ball squarely. In other words, the golfer had to allow the hosel to accomodate to the need of the golfer to get the sweetspot to hit the ball.

If one considers the geometry of this accomodation, note that the front of the hosel rotated to exactly the same degree as the clubface (sweetspot) between the 3rd parallel and impact because they both rotate equally as much as the back of the left hand rotates, and that the hosel doesn't rotate around the sweetspot (nor does the sweetspot rotate around the hosel because they both rotate at the same rpm as the back of the left hand between the 3rd parallel and impact). In fact, the hosel should transcribe exactly the same-shaped orbit it produced when there was no clubhead attached to the end of the clubshaft. However, the entire hosel orbit had to move in space to ensure that the sweetspot (of the extension piece that is at right angles to the end of the clubshaft) hits the ball squarely. In that sense, the hosel is accomodating to the sweetspot's orbital arc.

If the golfer then replaced his 4" wide clubhead with a new clubhead that had a width of 6" (which means that the sweetspot is 3" away from the hosel) then the golfer would have to accomodate himself to that fact. He would keep his overall clubshaft orbit the same, but he would have to stand another 1" further away from the ball to ensure that the sweetspot of the 6" wide clubface hit the ball squarely. So, in that sense the hosel is accomodating to the needs of the sweetspot to swing in an circular arc that allows the overall sweetspot arc to be in-to-square-to-in and that also allows the sweetspot to hit the ball squarely. However, that accomodation doesn't require that the shape of the clubshaft's orbit be altered when the clubhead width changes from 4" to 6". Also, the clubhead shaft will still remain on-plane during its travel through the impact zone, and it will still track along the same inclined plane between the 3rd and 4th parallel positions.

The idea of the hosel rotating around the sweetspot (or vica versa) would only have "relevance" if they rotated at a different rpm between the 3rd parallel and impact or between impact and the end of the followthrough.

Jeff.

Mi Casa y Su Casa -- Nyet!
 

Well, there ya go . . . The answer is . . . Door #1! -- The hosel rotates around the Sweetspot. I think. :confused1


Jeff,

Mi "mental universe" is not parallel to su "mental universe". In fact, we're not even in the same galaxy. Ne're the less . . .

I applaud your efforts.

:salut:

Tractor Trailer Jacknifing
 

Jeff,

AJ Bonar is smiling at you.

As you are driving a tractor (hosel) pulling a heavy trailer (clubhead) along a straight road (swing path) seeing a big golf ball in the middle of the road ahead and you want to smack the golf ball with the side of the trailer. How would you do it?

1) Don't aim for the golf ball but drive straight keeping left of the road; turn sharply left the last moment.

2) Drive straight for the golf ball and turn sharply left the last moment.

I am not sure it's relevant to your thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn2Z-...eature=related

Yoda,

My last attempt :)

Chbkk

Nice illustrations. Very impressive.

ob

chbkk

I think that your tractor trailer analogy has no relevance with respect to the release swivel action for the following reasons.

1) In your tractor trailer example you are trying to hit the golf ball with the side of the trailer, but there is a flexible joint between the tractor (hosel) and the trailer (clubhead) that allows the angle between the tractor and trailer to vary. By contrast, in a release swivel action, the angle between the hosel and the clubhead is fixed, and not flexible and the clubface angle changes relative to the ball-target line because the entire clubshaft and clubface rotates 90 degrees as a single unit while the left wrist uncocks - and the rpm of the clubshaft hosel is identical to the rpm of the clubface's sweetspot and equal to the rpm of the flat left wrist/hand unit.

2) To think of a comparable analogy, I think that you need to think along the following lines. First eliminate the left wrist uncocking action as a confounding variable by imagining the clubshaft at the delivery position - like in this photo of Aaron Baddeley.



Note that toe of the club is pointing upwards and that the clubhead is fixed at right angles to the clubshaft (and not following in-line behind like the trailer follows the tractor). Note that the clubface is parallel to the back of the left hand. Note that there is a 90 degree angle between the clubshaft and left arm. If Aaron Baddely didn't uncock his left wrist but simply rotated his left hand 90 degrees so that the back of the left hand faced the target at impact - then the clubface would hit a ball squarely if the ball was at the appropriate height above the ground. During that swivel action, the clubface would rotate 90 degrees and the clubshaft/hosel would rotate exactly the same amount - in other words, the flat left wrist/hand unit and clubshaft and clubface would all rotate at the same rpm. The fixed 90 degree angle between the clubshaft and clubhead would remain fixedly unchanged and the toe of the club would still point straight up at impact. There is no rotation of the hosel around the sweetspot (or vica versa) during this 90 degree rotation phenomenon.

Jeff.

p.s. Your tractor-trailer anlogy has relevance when describing the difference between a random release and a late release of the club. The road path and any swerving off that straight road path is equivalent to the hand arc path, and the flexible joint between the tractor and trailer is equivalent to the flexible left wrist joint between the left arm and clubshaft.

Yoda - look at that photo of Aaron Baddeley (in the post above this post)

Note that the clubshaft and hosel and clubface and flat left wrist/hand unit are all rotating at the same rpm (while the left wrist uncocks), and that there is no rotation of the hosel around the sweetspot in the downswing period between the delivery position and impact.

Jeff

she blinded me with science......
 

Here's a simple little experiment anyone can do (maybe not in the dead of winter though :) Next time you're cruising down the highway roll your window down. Stick your hand out holding it parallel to the highway. Now rotate it (slowly lest you break something) so your palm faces forward. Notice any difference? Of course you do.

In the golf swing with the club head goes from zero to 100+ (mph) in milliseconds. Do you realize what kind of drag an ordinary clubface experiences at 100+ mph? It ain't insignificant.

When its moving so darn fast why in the heck would the clubface want to turn into the wind? It wouldn't people... it would fall in line behind the shaft/hossel presenting the smallest possible frontal area to the wind (minimizing drag and maximizing entropy). Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on one's perspective) the club face has no choice in the matter. It does what the golfer's hands make it do.

BTW... frontal area is something to think about especially in these days of "game improvement" irons and mega-sized driver heads. Fine but you ain't gonna be able to swing-em as fast... because of drag (form and friction). That's just the way it is folks..

Motions within motions
 

Jeff,

1) I attempted to illustrate my high-school understanding of Newton’s Laws of Motion with the tractor-trailer example that it takes a force to change the velocity (speed and direction) of a lump of mass. You are advocating the hosel moving in a the “clubshaft plane” while the relatively massive clubhead moving in and out and back in clubshaft plane. We then need to identify a force that makes the clubhead move like that which I find difficult to accept. Whereas I am advocating that the massive clubhead moves in plane or more precisely, the center of mass of the clubhead moves in a plane. This is like the center of mass of the skidding tractor/trailer moves in a straight line. Without other forces, the rotation if any is around the center of mass in both cases.

2) In your image of Aaron Baddeley in post #169, there are three combined actions from the left image to the right image
a) the release action of accumulator #4 – the swinging of the left arm
b) the release action of accumulator #2 – the wrist uncocking
c) the release action of accumulator #3 – the rotating of the left hand
The difficulty is that all three motions are occurring concurrently obscuring one another. But you can unravel them by doing them discretely one at a time in any sequence to get from the body posture of the left image to the body posture of the right image. Let do a) and then b) and stop. Now you can see that the clubface is near impact but severely open. Let fix our eyes on the clubhead and do c). You can now see the rotation of the hosel around the clubhead which is hidden when we do the actions concurrently.

Yoda is correct
 

Jeff,

Couldn't sleep (too much chili earlier) thought I share these thoughts.

Yoda is correct in saying the hossel and shaft rotate about the cg of the club head (not sweet spot). The discussion re. robots 10 pages ago had me thinking what was in question was the source... the cause, the raison d'être of the rotation (club face opening and closing). Do we all agree the hands (gears in the case of the robots) cause it? I hope so anyway...

Centripetal loading acting on the club head CG causes toe-down and forward deflection of the shaft as shown in the figure:




That centripetal loading (caused by centripetal acceleration not centrifugal) is reacted by the golfer's hands (primarily by the fatty palm area of the left hand in my opinion) at the butt of the grip. If we drew a line from the butt end of the grip to the CG of the club head, that is the axis of rotation that the torque (supplied by the golfer's hands) causes rotation about.

What I'm saying is the golfer CAUSES the rotation (about the "z" axis shown above) but it is the shaft and hossel that move the most (relative to that axis). They are farther away from it. Since the AXIS of rotation is through the CG of the club head (ON THE SWING PLANE) and the sweet spot in the face is close to that CG, it moves much less. The centripetal loading is similar to the second club shown on the link below. The axis of rotation is that dot-dash line.

http://nmgolfscience.tripod.com/img/...Deflection.gif



Its time to put this one to bed imhop.

chbkk

You wrote-: "

You are advocating the hosel moving in a the “clubshaft plane” while the relatively massive clubhead moving in and out and back in clubshaft plane. We then need to identify a force that makes the clubhead move like that which I find difficult to accept."

You ask me to identify a force that causes the clubhead to move in space in a certain way.

The force that moves the club is the release of PA#4,2 and 3.

What you really need to understand is that the left hand grips the club firmly throughout the swing and the clubshaft's grip never swivel/rotates within the grasp of the left hand. Therefore, the clubface will always follow/duplicate the movement of the flat left wrist/hand throughout the stroke. In other words, the rotation of the back of the flat left wrist/hand causes the clubface and clubshaft to rotate in space at the same rpm as the rotating flat left wrist/hand. From the top of the swing to the 3rd parallel, the back of the flat left wrist/hand remains parallel to the inclined plane, and there is no rotation of the clubface or clubshaft. They are both in the same plane. From the 3rd parallel to impact, the flat left wrist/hand rotates 90 degrees into impact. Both the clubface and clubshaft rotate the same amount. Therefore, there can be no rotation of the hosel around the sweetspot (or vica versa). They move in different planes now (as perceived from a DTL view) because the clubhead has a fixed 90 degree relationship to the clubshaft, and the flat left wrist/hand is now rotating 90 degrees off the inclined plane so that it is perpendicular to the base of the inclined plane by impact.

You also wrote in 2c that the hosel rotates around the clubhead. It looks that way because you are keeping the clubshaft near-stationary. However, in reality both the sweetspot and hosel are rotating the same amount. If you really want to see the hosel rotating around the sweetspot, then loosen your left hand grip at that point and simply twirl-rotate the clubshaft 360 degrees around its longitudial axis (as if the clubshaft was suspended in a lathe) with your right hand twirling the butt end of the club. However, that never happens in a golf swing - the left hand grips the club firmly and the clubface and clubshaft only rotate as much as the left hand rotates in space. During the release swivel phase and the followthrough phase, the flat left wrist/hand and the clubface and hosel all rotate the same amount.

Consider the following diagram demonstrating the clubface rotation during the release swivel phase and the followthrough phase (using horizontal hinging).



Now, you may perceive the hosel or toe of the club rotating around the sweetspot in this diagram depicting the orientation of the clubface in space, but the reality is that both the toe and the heel of the club are rotating at the same rpm as the back of the flat left wrist/hand. The only reason why the toe "appears" to be rotating around the heel of the clubhead, is because it is further away from the axis of rotation of the rotating flat left wrist/hand. In reality, they are all rotating at the same rpm.

Jeff.

Precisely... all club parts rotate at the same angular velocity (which is relatively small) about an axis drawn from the grip to the CG of the club head where the net (integral ... sum total) of the centripetal acceleration is acting. Velocity is proportional to angular velocity and distance from the axis of rotation. Because the toe and hossel are farthest from this axis they move the fastest (toe towards target and hossel away from target). Because the "sweet spot" is close to this axis it moves very slowly no matter what. The notion that additional club-head speed can be had by rapidly closing the club face (as suggested by A.J. Bonar) is patently ridiculous. Rapid closing adds nil to club head sweet spot velocity at impact.

P.S.

That last statement is made with one small caveat... It may be possible that because of the fact that in a Bonar swing the club face presents a much lower frontal area (hence less aerodynamic drag) for a longer period of time, the golfer employing this method is able to generate a higher club head speed for a given ability to generate force. Lower aerodynamic drag longer = higher club head speed.

nm golfer

I have never disputed the fact that the hosel and clubshaft can rotate around the COG of the clubhead if the clubshaft is kept stationary and then simply rotated about the longitudinal axis of the clubshaft/clubhead combo - which is really the imaginary axis passing from the butt end of the club through the COG of the clubhead. I therefore can easily understand how a rotational torque force that torques the clubshaft around its combo longitudinal axis would cause the hosel to rotate relative to the COG of the clubhead.

Jeff.

nm golfer - you wrote with respect to my diagram.

"Precisely... all club parts rotate at the same angular velocity (which is relatively small) about an axis drawn from the grip to the CG of the club head where the net (integral ... sum total) of the centripetal acceleration is acting. Velocity is proportional to angular velocity and distance from the axis of rotation. Because the toe and hossel are farthest from this axis they move the fastest/ Because the "sweet spot" is close to this axis it moves very slow."

I disagree strongly with your depiction of events. During the release swivel phase and HH action phase of the swing, the different club parts are not rotating about the imaginary axis between the grip and the CG of the clubhead. What is happening is that the imaginary axis is moving in space due to movement of the flat left wrist/hand in space. The movement of the flat left wrist/hand occurs along a circular arc (relative to an imaginary center of the circle situated "somewhere" within space and all those parts (toe of the club, sweetspot of the club, hosel of the club) have the same angular velocity as the rotating flat left wrist/hand relative to the center of the imaginary circle. In other words, any point on that imaginary axis between the grip and the CG of the clubhead has the same angular velocity as the hosel and toe of the club - with respect to the instantaneous center of the imaginary circle of the flat left wrist/hand's rotational arc. The key point is "instantaneous" - if the flat left wrist/hand suddenly rotates along a tighter curve, then there must instantaneously be a different imaginary circle of rotation for all the rotating units (left hand, hosel, sweetspot, toe of the clubhead) which always have the same angular velocity relative to the center of that instantaeous imaginary circle of rotation. The only time that this system will breakdown is if the left wrist suddenly bends and doesn't remain flat.

Jeff.

we're getting blogged down on this one...
 

Nothing imaginary about it.

Sorry Jeff but...

(Now that I think I understand what is being argued here ...) I have to agree with Yoda and (probably Yodaslurk earlier) position(s). The physics cause the CG (call it sweet spot if you must) to remain stationary as the club twists about the Z axis (in MY diagram above). The CG is on the line of action of the centripetal acceleration.

Centripetal acceleration is a fact of life.... Its line of action (through the c.g. on the (instantaneous) plane of the golf swing, is the axis of rotation the club parts move about as a result of the golfer's hand torque.

Sometimes thing are best proven to one's self by experiment.

-Take a carpenter's square or some such thing.
-Tie a string to one end and the other end of the string to a door knob or something fixed.
-Take a bungee cord and attach one end of it to the middle (CG... sweet spot etc.) of the other leg of the carpenter's square.
-Have your assistant pull back on the bungee to simulate centripetal loading.

Now you give the thing a little twist. Observe ... what axis is it rotating about? That's right... the line of action of the bungee.. ie line of action of centripetal acceleration (less any adverse effects on the experiment due to gravity).

The club operates identical to this example in 3D.

3D reality...
 

We live in a three dimensional universe.

This means there are 6 degrees of freedom (DOF) which fully describe the motion of any three dimensional object in it. They are 3 translations and three rotations. We're (me, myself and I) talking about only one of those 6 DOF's. We're talking about ROTATION about the Z axis in our arbitrarily defined golf swing coordinate system.

That Z axis is defined by a line through instaneous center of the instantaneous plane of rotation of the golf club. It just so happens that the COG of the Clubhead (by the very definition of centripetal acceleration resides (ALWAYS) on that instantaneous plane. Any club part that are not co-linear with said "line of action" will, when subject to a torque about said "Z" axis, move OFF OF the plane of the swing. Ergo... when the golfer's hands provide the torque which closes the club face, the hossel moves away from the target and the toe of the club moves towards the target OFF OF THE INSTANTANEOUS PLANE of the golf swing.

Jeff ... what you are saying is correct ONLY when the butt end of the grip where the golfer's hands are located, is not co-linear with the line of action of the instantaneous swing plane. During the release, for all practical purposes they share the same line of action.

Confusing as H*** isn't it.... The real difficulty is getting us all on the same page via type-written word.

i'm trying to decide if this is interesting or not . . . . how much velocity do you think is lost due to the drag? AND . . . . do you think it is worth popping a Bonar and risk sacrificing alignment of the face due to the thing swinging around like a screen door in a tornado?

nmgolfer

We are seemingly not on the same page.

You wrote-: "We're (me, myself and I) talking about only one of those 6 DOF's. We're talking about ROTATION about the Z axis in our arbitrarily defined golf swing coordinate system."

You might be writing about rotation about the Z axis. I am not - I am writing about how the left hand rotates in space during the golf swing and drags the Z axis with it so that both the left hand and the Z axis rotate as an unit around the instantaneous axis of rotation of the flat left wrist/hand. I do not believe that the left hand is applying a torque force around the Z axis when the flat left wrist/hand moves in space. I think that a torque force around the Z axis only develops if the body stops rotating post-impact and the arms keep moving uncontrollably around the stalled body. The key to a good golf swing is keeping the arms rotating in synchrony with the pivoting/rotating torso so that the flat left wrist/hand rotates slowly in space. If a golfer follows AJ Bonar's recommendation in the next photo, then he may be applying a torque force around the Z axis.



Jeff.

Wristy Business
 

I have nothing to add here. I just hope A.J. got paid for wearing the watch!

8)

Learning With the Biggest Bertha
 

YodasLuke got a little impatient with all the theoretical mumbo jumbo and decided to get out the 'big club' and ball we keep around for demonstration purposes. They come in handy for communicating the finer points of TGM (such as Hinge Action). Hard to miss that Clubface!

So, does the Clubshaft rotate onto the Sweetspot's Plane or vice versa? Ted decided to put this argument to bed once and for all. Click here and see for yourself . . .

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/assets/ted-big-club.mpg

We're having a little trouble getting the link to take us all the way into the Finish Swivel. But stay tuned, we're workin' on it!

ted s swing
 

I have not read the entire article,nor will I,no disrespect to anyone,just lazy lol.
But please tell me the big club in vid is swingers action,not hitter.thanks

Hitter's Swing
 

By design, it is definitely a Swing (with its Horizontal Hinging). When Ted emailed the clip over, he even added this P.S.:

"It's not a bad Swing for a Hitter!"

:laughing9

Thanks Yoda
 

Thanks Yoda for that,(wiping sweat from brow),to see Ted doing this with Hitters pattern would in my eyes be a gem (big club) I would pin that up beside hitting stickman,that would clear the fog for many a hitters learning process.
Thanks again

I'd agree that "swing " looks really good. Ted when do you get a set of these from Henry Griffitts?

Sorting Through the Golf Nut's Catalog.

B-Ray

The Demand Being There . . .
 

. . . it must be supplied.

Ted!

Call to arms!

http://www.15thnewyorkcavalry.org/Media/cal2arms.wav

Assembly!

http://www.15thnewyorkcavalry.org/Media/assembly.wav

Charge!

http://www.15thnewyorkcavalry.org/Media/charge.wav



:golfcart2:

I'm wiping the tears from my eyes!

Nice job!

Thanks for the music links Yoda, at last I know what's happening in those John Wayne Westerns!

Boots and Saddles
 

In my best JW accent:

"You're welcome, pilgrim."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O8oLqY2sxo

:salut:

Yoda - I applaud the effort that Yodas Luke has made to resolve this issue with a personal demonstration using the big club. Unfortunately, he couldn't keep the club on-plane post-impact so it will not convince the sceptics.

Consider my analysis of Yodas Luke's swing.



Image 1 - Address, The clubshaft is on a plane and I will arbitrarily label that plane the elbow plane. You have drawn another plane line through the sweetspot, and I will call that sweetspot plane 2. I am not calling it sweetspot plane 1, because sweetspot plane 1 apparently goes from the sweetspot to PP#3. So, I will call it sweetspot plane 2.

Image 2

That's a perfect on-plane takeaway. Note how the hosel and clubshaft remain on the elbow plane - despite a >90 degree startup swivel action. The hosel didn't leave the elbow plane and rotate to sweetspot plane 2 despite a >90 degree clubface swivel action.

Image 3

He starts the downswing with a slight OTT move that moves the hands slightly forward off the elbow plane. That causes the hosel to momentarily leave the elbow plane.

Image 4

Later in the downswing, he pulls the hands back a bit which causes the clubshaft to stay on-plane better during the release swivel phase of the downswing. Note that the hosel and clubshaft are on the elbow plane during the release swivel phase (as they were during the start up swivel phase).

Image 5

At impact, the clubshaft and hosel is on-plane, and still on the elbow plane.

In other words, Yodas Luke kept the clubshaft and hosel on the elbow plane during the start up swivel phase and also during release swivel phase of the swing, and the hosel never left the elbow plane (except momentarily when his hands went forward in a minor OTT move at the start of the downswing action).

Image 6

The clubshaft is now off-plane. It looks like he is performing a HH action, but he has allowed the clubshaft to leave the inclined plane (elbow plane). According to 10-10-D, the clubshaft should remain on the inclined plane during a HH action. Now, if anybody thinks that the hosel is leaving the elbow plane in order to rotate to the sweetspot plane 2 (as if the hosel is rotating around the sweetspot), then that interpretation cannot be correct because that should only happen by the 4th parallel. The clubface is only partially closed at this early post-impact time point, and the hosel is already on sweetspot plane 2. This is "steering" - due to a failure to keep the clubshaft on-plane post-impact. I think that Yodas Luke would have to pivot more leftwards post-impact so that he can keep the clubshaft on the inclined plane (elbow plane) during the followthrough. The inclined plane during the followthrough phase of the swing must be the elbow plane (and not sweetspot plane 2) because it has to be the same inclined plane post impact as it was pre-impact (during the release swivel phase). One cannot shift planes between the 3rd parallel and the 4th parallel and call that a symmetrical on-plane swing.

Jeff.

Somehow I Knew . . .
 

. . . this would be coming.

:(

Not too shabby an effort, though. Especially considering that the club weighs about 15 pounds, its grip is about 1 1/2" in diameter, and the sweetspot is about 9" from the hosel.

:salut:

Awesome
 

The laws of nature are universal and immortal and testable.

May the force be with you - Yoda and Yodasluke

Thank you Jeff, your stubbornness - real or pretending = does bring value.

Blistered Soles
 

And the greatest value occurs when others -- who know the truth and care that others (including Jeff) also know -- take the time and make the effort to hold his feet to the proverbial fire.

Yoda

15lbs club weight!

Wow!

That's an amazing swing performance considering such a heavy unwieldy club.

I am therefore not surprised that he had difficulty keeping the club on the elbow plane during the followthrough, considering the effective mass (momentum of the heavy club) as it passed through impact.

What impresses me is that he kept the club near-perfectly on the elbow plane during the takeaway swivel and the release swivel phases. The fact that the hosel remained on the elbow plane during those two swivel phases surely suggests that the hosel doesn't rotate to/away from the sweetspot plane when it travels below waist level.

Please keep my feet to the fire. All my personal opinions need to be critically dissected for logical coherence and their degree of consonant concordance with objective reality.

Jeff.

Campfire Girls
 

The final segment of the video reveals a more 'symetrical' swing than your analysis would have us believe was made. We will post it as our 'life-constrained' schedules permit.

. . .

No promises on the 'feet holding', Jeff. For me, this weekend allowed more time than most. Recent market events forced a corporate titan to reschedule this weekend at Cuscowilla. And Mrs. Yoda is on a mission in south Florida to drive her Mom back home. Hence the time I was able to bring to this thread.

Just keep on doin' what you do. I appreciate your efforts, even as wrong-headed as they sometimes are.

:salut:

Yoda

I think that Yodas Luke does have a very symmetrical swing overall.

However, according to Homer's theory, doesn't the inclined plane have to be the sweetspot plane? If correct, then if a golfer is swinging on that sweetspot plane, then i) the hosel should be rotating towards that sweetspot plane during the takeaway swivel action, and ii) the hosel should be rotating away from that sweetspot plane during the release swivel phase (from the 3rd parallel to impact), and then iii) the hosel should rotate back towards the sweetspot plane during the followthrough phase (from impact to the 4th parallel).

However, in Yodas Luke's demonstration, the hosel was staying on the elbow plane during i) and ii), which fits in with my theory. Surely, the hosel cannot only rotate away/to from the sweetspot plane at one swing phase-point - point iii) - and not at the other two swing phase-points, if the hosel was operating in accordance with Homer's theory?

Jeff.

Not sure yet... I need to run some numbers but I'm building a swing simulator first where that kind of thing can be more easily and accurately modeled. Speed hence wind / drag is time varying so it must be integrated to deduce the net effect.

Can't say anymore about it at this time but I SUSPECT (opinion only) aerodynamic drag has a much bigger effect than people suspect on chs. However I wouldn't switch to a Bonar technique to investigate.... that's messing with disaster.

So Stop Already!
 

Jeff,

You don't swing the hosel.

You swing the Clubhead. More specifically, the Clubhead's Sweetspot.

Period.

Stop wasting everybody's time. Your talents are better applied elsewhere.

Give this one a rest.

:sad2:

chbkk

Why would I pretend to be stubborn, or actually be stubborn, if my opinions are not totally concordant with objective reality? Somebody could easily present a counterargument to demonstrate my errors, and what do I gain by ignoring a valid counterargument?

Feel free to interpret Yodas Luke's swing in your personal manner if you think that my personal interpretation is not totally concordant with reality.

Jeff.