After watching him
 

First- after watching tw sunday. I think he has a personality change and no longer has the old DETERMINATION to win.

Second- In the most recent pix- his shaft starts a forward bend almost at parallel to the line and his right wrist is almost flat at impact. Proly nothing but faux lag left. Can't push a string- first law of engineering.

But what do I know. He must have great instructors that got him to where he is.

HB

Maybe....Eldrick's problem Sunday seemed to be all that freakin' shaft lean he had....they showed that junk on a swingvision and Eldrick had a WHOLE FREAKIN' BUNCH of shaft lean and Kostis about had to towel himself off....then Eldrick proceeded to air mail about four greens with short irons.....uh hello.....

Then he's trying to hold off the freakin' club and override the pulley...hits a shot and comes of shaking his freakin' wrist and it wasn't even in the rough....trigger delay DEATH...precisely my point on the original posting of this thread....

You're seeing something that I'm not catching. I admit that I limited my observation by focusing on Hinge Action because I thought that some of his errant shot may have been caused by swiveling - over or under. I don't think Hinging or Swiveling is his problem.

I watched every down the line slo-mo I could. I see a precision Dual Horz Hinge for all of his Iron shots. As far as I could tell, he was no better or worse than Phil when it came to Hinge action and pulley on Iron shots and they are both exceptionally elite players. Tiger hit a beautiful drive on 18. The slow mo again showed a perfect Hinge and Pulley.

As far as the pulley goes, if he's playing with that much shaft lean at Impact then he's playing the ball far enough aft that he's hardly entering the pulley before contact. I understand that doing so reduces the margin of error substantially because release point will affect clubface alignment.

His chipping and putting were way below his normal standard while Phil played at the very top of his ability. 11 stroke difference in 18 holes. Phil shredded Tiger. Tiger was obviously unraveled. He was losing it hole by hole and he knew he couldn't do anything about it. I give credit to Tiger, because if were him, after watching Phils' putt on 18, I'd be carried off the course on a stretcher.

I'd pay a thousand bucks to hear the next conversation between Tiger and Foley.

Distance control issues if you don't nail the appropriate amount of lean.....he air mailed a bunch of greens with short irons Sunday....







All that trigger delay and shaft lean is purty and all....but the ball is gonna go to far at times if your 9 iron turns into a 7 1/2 iron instead of an 8 iron that you expect....

I don't see a problem with the Shaft Lean. In this case it's Ball Location and not an alignment flaw. "Geometry of the Circle". The farther Aft of Low Point the Ball is located, the more Shaft Lean.

It's clearly obvious that with each of these pictures that none of them align the Flying Wedges at 90 degrees. No 10-2-B, fine. So you don't need a 90 degree alignment to play Tournament Golf. But in each picture, it's their Right Forearm Wedge that's not Aligned and that means the #3 PP isn't sensing pressure for distance control. So, each uses the #2 PP (or #4). That's not as mechanically sound because the #2 PP will be released. But, it's not a swing contest.

I wouldn't recommend that for casual players like us because it requires you to sleep with your clubs.

Maybe as important as having good mechanical alignments is having your "Stars" aligned that day.

Lost Lag!
 

I will continue to argue that he has lost lag pressure before impact. Forward bend of the shaft contqains NO lag press. Lag extends to th first non lagging component. The back of the insert in this case. HK says this is the hardest to detect. TW slo mo driver pix provide that info. If it is thought that he is retaining lag, please show me the error in my conclusion.

Thanks
HB

Daryl...you may not see a problem with the shaft lean...but the ball did....it went over the green!

You say that the ball is "back"....the camera angles could obviously be jacked up....but it seems to me that Eldrick's ball is forward of Hogan's and Stricker's....Stricker is probably THE BEST short iron player on tour....he has less shaft lean and less descent than Eldrick.....Eldrick's mechanics/concept to have that much shaft lean FAILED Sunday. If you want to compress the ball fine....he probably nailed the shot....but remember it ain't just compressing the ball...IT IS THE MANIPULATION OF THE LINE OF COMPRESSION.....HE DIDN'T FAIL TO COMPRESS....HE FAILED IN THE PROPER MANIPULATION OF THE COMPRESSION.

good gravy.....you are saying that a cat that can fly the ball 300 plus has lost lag pressure???? Oh boy.

Yes.
2-E, 6-C-2-B
hb

I struggle with chapter 2 probably more than the next guy, but I see all three of those references supporting the need for lag pressure through the impact interval, the very foundation of our studies here...

Kevin

The shaft kicks before impact in every properly fitted shaft. The trick is to get a flex that gives as a straight a shaft as possible at IMPACT for face control. As a general rule, too stiff and it kicks too early, too much flex and the head lags the shaft at impact holding the face open. In those photos of Woods, he hasn't lost lag pressure, the sweetspot is outrunning the shaft, but not his trigger finger(pp#3)!

HB - In particular, :45 through 1:00 will clear it up for you. Thanks for the great video Kevin, I hadn't seen it before now. :thumright

Thank Master YODA!!!

The man knows, and always shares the answers...

Kevin

1. Like Hogans answer when asked - How stiff should a shaft be??- Answer- like a telephone pole.

2. Sure would like to see the physics of how the sympethetic vibration aids ball striking not just making your swing feel, feel good.

3. yes I have seen the data showing forward bend at impact- even the pros. BUT HK has said (can't find the quote now but it is on the forum) that the pro's loose lag before impact.

hb

When you find that quote from Homer Kelley, please share it with us.

maybe this logo should be changed
Attachment 2831

Absolutely not.

Feel this:


To accomplish this:


And avoid "scientifically polished impact."

I see Yoda doing lots of out toss there....








(this is a joke but will probably be take too serious by the "noramlites").

Kev, I absolutely agree. I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about forward shaft bend (this thread doesn't need to be dragged - no pun intended - in another direction). But the video explanation is very unsatisfying. If the shaft can't keep up with the sweetspot (as mentioned in the video) such that a forward bend is created, then it must be influencing the sweet spot - resisting its forward motion - opposite to the desired resisting its deceleration

Turf drag!

LOL

But what's a "noramlite?"

...and how does that knowledge influence what you are trying to accomplish in the golf swing?

Kevin

How does the shaft know where the ball is located?

The Shaft isn't programed to act on its own. It will bend from pressure and release when the pressure subsides.

Does it make sense that the clubhead may not be increasing speed but that the clubshaft has stopped accelerating.

Consider this similarity. If you cast a weight with a fishing pole, it bends in the direction of the lagging weight. But as the pole begins to slow, the weight passes and the pole reverses its bend in the direction of the weight which is now moving ahead of the shaft.

It's important to note that the weight begins to lose speed as soon as it becomes in-line with the pole. "Law of the Flail."

The downstroke Acceleration Sequence really works and it's not too difficult to learn and use. Naturally, a complete examination of the DAS is included in my Video, "The Right Forearm Participation in the G.O.L.F. Swing".

Yes, if the club head outruns the shaft before impact, club head lag is lost. That's why you try to match the shaft to your swing so that the club head is in line with the shaft at impact. But even with a forward bending shaft, there is still accumulator and pivot lag to prevent the loss of pp#3 lag pressure.

You match the shaft to your swing and ball position. :confused:

You're recommending that the Shaft "Flex" be matched to the Players amount of "Throw-away".

Is there an "ideal" amount of "Throw-away" that you recommend?

I have not relocated the quote but some real data from True Temper should make the point:

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/...end-Norman.gif


http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/...nd-LoveIII.gif


http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/...d-Jacobsen.gif


hb

Tutleman's charts have NOTHING to do with your statement that Homer Kelley says all pros have thrown away lag pressure at impact. Too many folks here study Homer Kelley to try to baffle them with BS.

Kevin

Spend some time studying and find the quote yourself and not at me. Last smart guy who tried that was on the fourth green at TP south. I took a four wood and hit his ball into the ocean and walked on.
HB

WOW!

I'll apologize now for not being able to find a quote that doesn't exist. I'm sure you believe it does, and you probably saw something similar on another site said by someone else. Going anti-lag is what some are trying to use to discredit TGM.

IMO, if Homer wasn't perfect, it wasn't because of his belief in THE SECRET OF GOLF.

Kevin

Kev,

Most Pro's have Throw-away with full strokes. It's controlled. They're not perfect. You don't need a perfect swing to play professional golf.** However, they don't exhibit throwaway with less than full strokes no matter what shaft they use.

In Fact, they don't want to change it. They rely on Shaft makers to adjust flex characteristics to give them maximum distance/accuracy with their existing swing. If things go wrong, they blame the Clubmaker. It's always been "that way".

If you really want to see something funny, them make them all play with the same ball and same set of clubs. :laughing9 I'd pay to see that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



**To be a Pro, you need great impact, some talent, some luck, a free steak dinner, someone to blow smoke up your butt, and another to interview you like you just solved world hunger. And you need someone to write the check. Actually, "Impact" may not be that important.

Guys like Couples and Singh would be perfect examples of those without lag through impact. Their right hands aren't even on the club on many swings through the impact interval. However, as teachers is that what we try to convey to our students? Is that what Homer and Lynn are trying to teach us? Did Homer EVER say "all pros have lost their lag pressure at impact?"

Thanks Daryl,
Kevin

If you play and practice everyday and are supremely gifted like a tour pro you can hit with certain parts of your anatomy if it works. However, IMO, the rest of us need lag and forward shaft lean on every shot every time to insure solid contact and control our eggs.

Bravo :salut:

edit...you need the CORRECT amount of lean for the shot at hand...

Mr. Bucket,

What is the geometry of Shaft Lean? I mean, what causes the lean or why does the shaft lean, or under what alignments does the shaft lean more or less, or what is the purpose of shaft lean??

IMO, this picture mirrors YODA's video. The clubhead is outracing the shaft, but the hands continue to lead the sweet spot and lag pressure is maintained. Nice job Jeff Evans, beautiful!

Shaft lean is potentially a dynamic component of the "manipulating the line of compression" equation.... it has a large degree of influence on loft, angle of attack (depending on other variables), where the face angle thingie is pointing, rate of release (or not release) of the accumulators....also can be a function of grip type...

the purpose of lean is defined ideally consciously by the player hitting the shot required given the playing conditions and the adjustment and/or compensations of his individual machine.

Kevin,

Do you have the impact photo from this sequence or do you know who does?

EC