Vickie what are your thoughts on Creatine?
 

Vickie what are your thoughts on Creatine? I got this from a website and it SEEMS that if you are weight training to gain size and strength it is a good thing. Is there a down side to Creatine?

What is Creatine?
Creatine is a substance found naturally in your body. Every time you perform any type of intense exercise (e.g. weight training) your body uses creatine to provide your body with energy. Unfortunately, creatine stores only last for a maximum of around 10 seconds. That's why you can't train "all-out" for very long, as your creatine stores become depleted.

What are the benefits of Creatine?
Adding creatine to your diet raises the levels of creatine in your body. With more research than any other supplement, creatine could help you pack on muscle size and strength fast, when combined with your exercise regime. There's an exciting body of research to show that creatine can be used to support your muscle and strength goals. Creatine is great for helping you achieve your physique goals, it's the most popular supplement with bodybuilders and elite athletes, alongside protein and energy drinks.

Should you use it?
If you are seeking muscle size, strength and power you could benefit from creatine. Anyone involved in strength and power-based sports, bodybuilders and regular gym users will notice greater gains in both muscular size, strength and performance.

Hue,

I know you have directed the question to Vickie and I apologize for stepping in, but as I enter my 3rd decade of medical practice I have been asked this question a zillion times, so I thought I would give you MY 2 cents and then step out.

Creatine is a dietary supplement used for increasing muscle mass and improving performance in short-duration, high-intensity exercise. It has been popular for about 15 years.
It is not banned by the Olympic Committee or any other sports organizations to my knowledge.
Creatine is made naturally in the liver and stored in your muscles. In your diet it is found in red meat. As a supplement it is usually sold in powder or tablet form.
When muscles contract they burn up a substance called ATP and break it down into ADP (Yes, this is the Krebs cycle from high school biology coming back to haunt you!) Creatine helps turn the ADP back into ATP, thus renewing the energy source for your muscles. This tends to work for short bursts of exercise such as weight lifting, sprinting,football, but has not been shown to be beneficial for endurance type activities such as swimming or cycling.
Creatine increases the amount of water stored in the muscle and increases the muscle volume--yes, you will look great in your golf shirt! You will also gain a little weight (5-10 pounds) in about 6 weeks. It WILL make you bigger, but not more skillful or agile. Of interest, for some reason, creatine does absolutely NOTHING for about 25-30% of the people who take it. No one knows why.
Side effects I have seen are stomach upset and some muscle cramping. If you plan to try it I suggest you keep very well hydrated.
Risks of long-term use of creatine are NOT KNOWN!!! Some articles I have read over the years seem to indicate potential kidney damage, but this is not certain.
My PERSONAL opinion is that you are better off eating a balanced diet(yes, an occasional steak is ok) and getting regular exercise as per all of the excellent suggestions by Vickie in this forum. Sorry again for butting in, but as a team physician for a local high school I have developed a bias against stuff like this. And now, if it has finally stopped raining, I'm going to G.O.L.F. Stay healthy folks---the information in this forum from Vickie is absolutely FIRST CLASS and we are very fortunate to have someone with her credentials sharing her knowledge.
Dr Dave
"That which does not kill me just postpones the inevitable!"

The Treasure Trove
 

Another great post in Fit For G.O.L.F. , Dr. Dave. When we created this forum, and, most of all, when Vickie Lake agreed to serve as Moderator, I knew we could have something special.

But, I must admit that I had no idea just how successful this treasure trove of information would become. And it is guys like you, Physioguy, Hue, Tongzilla, and all the other regular contributors who are making it happen for the rest of us. Thank you all for your time, energy and enthusiasm. You're terrific!

Creatine is one of the few muscle building supplements that I have tried that actually worked as advertised when I was competing. It had an interesting side effect for me, though: During a round of golf my forearms would get a tremendous pump when I was taking it. Having tight and pumped forearms is NOT conducive to a good short game! I'd get a case of hammer hands late in the round because of it. I don't take creatine any longer because of that psuedo-pump it gave me, but it really did work. Good luck!

Leegee38,
As you found out it is probably not something that will help your golf---but I'll bet you were "buff" in your golf clothes! Huge muscles are not much help in some endeavors such as swimming, golf,etc. I have always wondered whether Keith Clearwater had any regrets about all of his bodybuilding ---you never heard about him after he got big. Ted (Luke the Nuke) Fort absolutely pulverizes the ball, and I've seen him---he's an average sized guy. All in all, I think you are better off without the stuff. Just my 2cents. Have fun. Dr Dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHANGE--When the winds of change blow hard enough even the most trivial of things can turn into deadly projectiles!

Hello, hello,

Man I almost like missing a couple of days to see all of the great responses to quearies. Dr. Dave has it going on and I hope to see many more responses. I appreciate the confidence and compatibility with my philosophies but the questions are really directed to the moderator. I am proud to be a part of this great site and glad to learn and contribute from every piece of information that is shared. leegee38 also provided some real life experience that as we all know is invaluable.

Hue, You started by asking specifically about gaining size and strength. You have read from the previous expert witness that these facts are true. Whether it help your golf game, which you didn't ask about, is more a factor of the other aspects of your game, mainly where was your strength before. I have found as leegee38 has referenced that extreme strength and power pale in comparison to alignment technical ability. But it never hurts to look good in your golf clothes.

With that said, uhhmmm, I agree with the good doctor that you only want to supplement after you have a natural foundation; for best results from the supplement and for your money, creatine is not cheap. Remember, all of the great data comes from physique freaks (ie:bodybuilders) and remember our poor maligned batting friends that were criticized before the steroid exposures. That means that you have people that have a lot of support in making sure their nutrition, health supplements, rest and training schedule create the most receptive biological terrain for the supplementation of this product that is in your body and in your foods. Most people who are trying to grow train quite heavily and rest appropriately. We know that the best way to build lean muscle and not fat is to eat frequent, small meals that are balanced and please please include whole food carbohydrates, including rice and potatoes. Calories are another word for energy and also a significant resource for the water your body needs in increasing amounts with the effects of creatine. Sr. Dave mentioned this when he talked about a very frequent side effect for 'novice' supplementers who don't get enough water from their water sources including food. The muscles will demand and take the water up leaving the stomach and intestines starving; yes constipation is also a side effect in natural bodybuilding on the lower, less experienced levels. I love red meat and eat it atleast twice a week in appropriate quantities for my size and training, around five ounces per serving. Based on your body composition you should adjust the portion size.

Leegee38 is also making some great points. Once you are saturated with your creatine supplement you can receive a post workout (or any major muscle use pump) muscle pumpfeeling that can restrict you motion. For this reason I recommend to my 'range of motion' atheletes that they use creatine for the months between their seasons of competition. A special challenge for recreational golfers because season is base on permitable weather. Depending on your local, we Georgians will take off after Christmas for a while, this would be a time to use the supplement to boost your physical gains. If you train correctly, most of the gains (after the 5th week) can be permanent. If you don't, then you'll loose 80 percent of the gains within about 6 six weeks after discontinuing your intake.

There are many new products on the market, some don't require a creatine load. That means you don't have to take in appx 30mg (in 5-6 doses) for a week and then cut back to 10 during your training cycle.

Did I say cycle? I love cycling everything. I cycle my training exercises within a cycle and cycle my training focus every 12-16 weeks. I also wouldn't use a performance enhancing supplement more than 12 weeks before I took a 2-6 week break. This allows you to review your goals, your results, and also the interraction with the rest of your health regime. The concept of cell-volumizing (pumping up the muscle with water) can be misleading. Again, if you're getting everything else right you may not need to cycle. But what we know about creatine is that when you resume you can get great results, again, and with the cycling experience you may come to it with more success.

Let me please agree again with Dr. Dave. I don't think teenagers should use these supplements. I realize that this is the period when many of these kids are scouted for college and beyond. There needs to be a pure period of developing personal body confidence. Adults should have some discernment about their health that could easily escape even the most exceptional teenager. I do think teenage atheletes should eat well, take supplements to support the enormous physical requirements of competition, and rest . . .alot. I have a 17 year old and he has no problem with the rest part.

Finally let me say that I have seen great physical gains in size and strength with creatine. The people who don't get the results don't have the foundation in place. I use a very holistic approach with the clientel I have developed but I have to tell you . . . the stuff can work with the right protocol.

Keep us posted and pm me if you have questions about the various products, powders, liquids and capsules. Not every company packages the ingredients listed on the package.

Vik

Thanks for the post :D . I learned a lot from it .

Hue,
Glad to help.

Vickie,
Great post---my experience with creatine is limited to high school wrestlers and football players (who also ask me for steroids believe it or not!). I know the "medical aspect" of this supplement , but your post put it into "real life" experience. I learned some interesting things, as I always do with your posts. Thanks for sharing your information. You seem to have an awesome knowledge base and present it in a clear and concise manner. I know I speak for everyone --THANK YOU!!
Stay healthy kids. Dr Dave

Vickie and Dr Dave: This information would indicate that the main real gain in using Creatine is from super-charging the ATP cycle which means the muscles get less tired during training which leads to the ability to have a longer workout and consequent gains. The water retention thing in the muscles is of no real benefit.

Hue, Cell volumizing is really another way of saying cell hydration; not to be confused with water retention which is under the skin (ie: subcutaneous). There is some speculation (but no peer reviewed conclusions) that the volumized muscle may accelerate the synthesis of new protein and help minimize protein wasting or catabolism. But you are right to put the most focus on the fact that you can recover faster between sets and therefore, presumably, you can train harder for a greater portion of your workout. More work means more muscle, period. The rapid loss of some size when you stop taking creatine monohydrate is the loss of the cellular hydration and therefore the loss of the volumized appearance. But if you use the product well and train hard enough you will retain the muscle you created, as long as you keep it up. Typically, once you've increased your aerobic threshhold with the supplement you can continue to train at that level. Many bodybuilders never go off the supplement because they don't want to lose the pump. Sounds like you think along the same lines as I do; I want to know the results of the training and am not so glamorized by the pump. To each his own. What say you Dr Dave? Vik

This has really turned into an interesting thread, lots of info !! I totally agree that someone without a good foundation will probably not benefit as much, and I suspect this may account for the 20-30% who get poor results.
Hydrated tissue is happy tissue. When the muscles take up extra water they take it from other tissues in your body(hence the recommendation to stay well-hydrated during your time on this substance). In 1997 two NCAA wrestlers died while taking creatine and this substance came under a great deal of scrutiny----turned out they died from dehydration.
I agree,Vickie, that if someone trains appropriately, they should retain a lot of their muscle buildup after stopping creatine IF THEY CONTINUE TO WORK OUT!!!
The most recent post in the Fit For Golf section (from Physioguy) has the results of a study from the Univ. of Pittsburgh---it deals with strength and flexibility training combined with golf instruction. Will creatine help you hit the ball farther?? Probably will. Whether you will be able to find it is another question. I really think golf is like swimming---after a certain amount of muscle mass is attained it becomes counter-productive to performance of the activity. Perhaps a training program with "some" creatine, some weight training, some flexibility, some golf instruction would be best.
I wonder how much creatine leegee38 was taking when he developed "hammer hands"??? The journey continues.......... Dr Dave

I had loaded with 30 grams per day for 5 days and was taking a maintenance dose of 5-7 grame per day. FWIW, I think research now indicates that the loading phase is probably unnecessary.
Once those forearms got pumped there was just no sense of feel at all. Creatine probably allowed me to remain 8-9 lbs. over my lean body weight without it.
I've trained with weights for more than 30 years and am now 205 lbs. at 5'11" with a 32" waist. Creatine isn't my excuse for a rotten short game now .... being old is! :lol:

Pump you up!
 

I've been taking 3 Grams of Creatine along with 2 Grams of Glutamine and 54 Grams of Whey Protein on my workout days. It's a premix of the protein I use. There is definiately a need to make sure you are well hydrated due to the little bit of extra water pickup by the muscles. I'm certain I carry at least 5 extra pounds of water due to the supplement. I too am middle aged but work out very hard in the gym.

I don't think I can point to Creatine for the forearm muscle pump while playing golf. The increased blood flow to forearm muscles would be directly related to the amount of effort used in holding on to the club or maybe something else.

What causes the forearm pump? Squeezing the club, pulling a cart, carrying a bag, shaking your fists... :D.
Just curious.

Bagger

Re: Pump you up!
 

At the time this occurred I was definitely making a concious effort to rotate my forearms thru impact, which may have contributed to the problem. I did not experience the pump without creatine, however. Basically, an extremely quick and hard pump was one of the things I noticed while on creatine. It took very little exercise to achieve the pump in the gym (which was a good thing!), but it took very little effort in everyday tasks for the same thing. My workouts felt very productive because I'd feel huge after just 2-3 sets, but I could get a pump in my thighs just squatting down to clean the wheels on my car.
What I really don't understand is the conflict between creatine theoretically causing cell volumizing and holding more fluid in the muscle, yet also apparently being a factor in dehydration and cramping. How can it do both?

Re: Pump you up!
 

The dehydration is likely an effect of the muscles infused with the extra creatine pulling water from the more vital body systems (cardiovascular, digestive) into the muscles. That's why you would end up needing to drink more water than you did before creatine supplementation. I'm not sure about the cramping; maybe the extra water is diluting the electrolyte concetration in the muscle. Any thoughts?

Creatine is a fascinating subject after all. Quickly, volumizing is about water within the muscle cells. Dehydration is relatin more to the vital organs and subcutaneous fluid retention. The restriction in the hands could come from the bodies desperate attempt to hold on to some water and swelled the hands during heavy use periods. This is much like the pregnant woman who swells in her feet in the last months of pregnance and with no previous or post pregnancy symptoms. Sorry, it's just the easiers example and I'm just coming in from a nutritional conference in North Carolina. I'll address this more thoroughly tomorrow, since it seems you really want the skinny. Vik

When i was lifting often creatine gave me exactly what it was supposed - 10% more strength in a six week cycle. I used my benching as the barometer. The gains also stopped right there. I was recommended to simply take 5 grams a day for the first week then 3 grams a day thereafter. There was a study at the time that indicated loading didn't work. To me the most important thing with creatine is perfecting the cycling. When i stopped taking it cycling was still an imprecise science but i'm sure it has advanced dramatically. I see Vickie likes to cycle it.

You got that right JohnThomas. Even with natural supplements it is so important to take time to evaluate the 'true' natural benefits of your work. I even believe in cycling vitamins. You were also right that loading has always been questionable. I've seen it go both ways in the gym but did have personal success with loading. These days the science is so much more advanced that loading isn't an issue with 90% of the products. I would even take a sublingual creatine these days if my focus was on building. But after the Peachtree Road Race, who knows what my next cycle will be. I'll let you know.

Briefly, yes Bigwill you're right about muscle cramping. But the abdominal cramping is actually too little water for the digestive process to complete it's cycle and the lower GI problems with cramping then just makes sense. Everyone who trains should drink more water than the average person and if you are a sweater even more and if you train outside even more. Water can be a tricky subject. I personally drink about a gallon a day. I have a 6 foot woman who drinks almost 150 oz. and won't give it up for anybodies argument since she hasn't had the crippling migranes she suffered prior to her water obsession.

I'll reply to this, as I have a little knowledge on the issue. Your muscles use phosphorylated creatine (creatine-ATP). Your muscles need ATP. If you start working your muscles, you have 2 seconds worth of ATP handy. When you use that, you have maybe 10 seconds worth of creatine-ATP. Your body recycles the ADP resulting from the burning of the ATP; makes ADP to ATP. Your body already has the creatine and ADP needed to make creatine-ATP. The physiology of your cells will determine how much ATP and creatine-ATP you can have in your cells. And that's it. You can take creatine-ATP, but it will degrade quickly, even if you take it intravenously.

Creatine has been shown to increase muscle volume through osmotic effects (your body very tightly regulates the osmotic potential of cells, and if you move some solute into your cells, water will go in to keep the osmotic potential of the cells constant). If you take creatine, it will get into your muscle cells. So if you want to look "pumped", creatine can help you there.

Now, on the "plus" side, if you want to think creatine might help, maybe by adding creatine to your cells, you might add a few nanoseconds onto the 10 seconds you have (on average)!

Now it could be, however, that since your muscles cells take up the creatine you ingest or inject, that excess creatine may interfere somewhow with the chemistry of your cells. No data show this happeneing because other than the osmotic effects, there are no data showing taking excess creatine has any effect at all on muscle performance.

My opinion is that taking excess creatine has a negative effect because your body has to get rid of it, and that will add a metabolic load to muscles cells that is not normally there. While it's there, that excess will throw off your muscle cell chemsitry a bit (it has to), but that chemistry is highly regulated enough that your cells obviously make up for it, as data show no effect of creatine on muscle performance. However, in making up for the excess creatine you could get indirect effects on other physiological processes in the cells that could mean something if the cell is challenged in some other way (because in dealing with the excess of creatine, some other system is compromised). Maybe, maybe not, but why take the risk for no benefit?

I am personally highly biased towards the view that you should let your body function normally, and do things to maximize normal body functions, without going to extremes. I suspect that people whose body does not function normally, and have to go to extremes just to maintain function, might appreciate such a view more than people who think that normal body function somehow isn't good enough! I'll gladly take normal body function till the day I die if it is ever offered as an option to me!!!

Hear, hear Ceasar Frostback. What a great post! Great knowledge and great authority, the man obviously knows of what he speaks!

I prefer a more holistic approach as well. More often than not I take people off the massive numbers of supplements (incidentally most of my people also come off their blood pressure medications and then their other little pills, too) and try to look more at food, and rest, and a balanced exercise program to maximize success and vitality.

I have still seen the product work but I also think your mental conviction is a great part of all progress in all of lifes efforts. So . . . I like a simple program and I don't take creatine but if I thought I needed to compete in a masters bodybuilding competition, I'd be tempted to volumize.

Vik