What does Lead, etc. shoot?
 

I've heard that a lot of the top teachers in the golfing world (or at least top rated/percieved) are not even that good of golfers.

If you are of the opinion that the swing is controlled by the mind and not the body then how do you explain this?

These guys are supposed to know the swing better than anyone. You'd think they could golf, right?

I have never never ever in 23 years of playing golf seen David Leadbetter hit a golf ball. Does he hit any shots on his videos? To be honest, I've never watched one.

In an older series of videos, Leadbetter hits plenty of golf balls. I have them in a box in my basement somewhere so I will have to dig them up to get the title, but they were made in the 80s or early 90s I believe.

E.

I have one of those tapes, he has a nice swing, but... Bird makes a good point- most instructors don't hit balls on their instruction tapes and many can't play a "Competitive" round of golf. “Competitive" golf puts the swing under pressure where all the technique taught is accountable. Wayne DeFrancesco who writes for “GolfStyles”, once called Washington Monthly and is one of the best non-TGM instructors, has for years wrote that an instructor needs to play competitive golf not only to see if he and his teaching can stand up to the pressure but to also Learn more about golf and the swing to be a better instructor for his students. I laugh at some big names that dare not to swing at a ball on their tapes or shows.
McLean and Butch still swing. Ballard doesn’t even stand near a ball. And of course you have to pry the club away from Lynn or your lesson tee exposes the low, low point plane line forever.

His own stroke (and the one he advocates) is akin to mechanical junk....

Perceptively to those that are not into the mechanics, he does everything with a sence of ungracefulness and ineffectiveness.....

He can't break mid 80s ......

Let's remember that these Leadbetters, Harmons, McLeans, etc. have immense demands on their time. They have devoted their lives to teaching golfers at the highest levels of the game. They have to attend at the very minimum the majors, WGC events, and a few other select big-name tournaments. They often teach on not only the PGA Tour but also the LPGA, Champions, and sometimes European tours. In addition to traveling to and from those events, dealing with their players nagging them, and writing/filming instruction material, they have to make time to teach everyday hacks.

After all of this, I would not expect them to be competitive golfers. They've played all they can play, and now they teach. They literally have close to zero time to tune up their own games, much less play in tournaments. I would expect these big-name instructors to at least have decent swings, but anything above and beyond that just isn't a practical demand of them.

Can they play
 

I have played 9 holes with David in 93 and he could play. Not real long of the tee but a good short game. He shot 4 under for 9 holes. I also worked with Jimmy from 91-97 and never played a round with him. He would demo shots in lessons and had a great touch around the green. They all could play at one time. One thing I noticed is there swings did not match their instruction. Interesting?
#-o

Ole Lead played with a wealthy student of mine (and mikestloc) at Augusta...you've heard the story...

Lead 87
Manz student 83

Lead asks Manze student to do infomercial to claim his helping Manz student when it was ME!!!!

Hehehehehe...

anyhoo.....the Manzella-Finney student said....no Lead....

No.

Manzella-Finney helped me beat your ass. :wink:

Great story. He sure got the Lead out!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

LOL...thats the short version. You're forgetting about all the money he spend on lead before seeing you and Finney

I have seen Lead hit balls on one of his videos. His swing may produce acceptable shots; I never saw the results. I can tell you, however, that his swing is not attractive to look at. It is a very stiff action like he is thinking his way through the movement step by step.

As far as "top instructors who can play," I would have to go with Rick Smith and Jim McLean. Both have nice swings. Also, Flick's head instructor, Mike Malaska, has a very pretty swing. I'm not sure how he plays and scores, but his swing is nice.

I would say most pros had good games at one time and I would also say that they all enjoy trying to help people and genuinly believe what they are doing is correct. You don't get into the instruction business for the money because there usually isn't much...or at least nobody I've met has.

The best playing pros probably aren't "top" teachers. There was a pro in Lexington, Kentucky (where I live) named Buddy Harston. I never took any lessons from him, but a friend of mine did. Honestly, I can't even tell you what he taught. Manzella may be able to tell you. Harston isn't the greatest player ever, but he had some success at the professional level and is currently trying to play full time on the Champions Tour. There are plenty of those types of guys out there.

It was probably the camera angle, but....... I swear that Hank Haney hit a steaming line drive into the first base dugout, while demonstrating the Medicus driver in the infomercial. It didn't make any difference for the production as it only showed impact and a couple feet of ballflight. The swing just didn't look right.

DISCLAIMER: This is not to entice anyone to watch the infomercial. Recent studies have proven that they stun brain cells to the point where the subject inexplicably reaches for his credit card. They also cause some people to repeat the same thing over and over again every 2 1/2 minutes. :)

Charlie

Over the past few years, I have seen a lot of these threads on the net. I always thought it was the teacher's ability to teach the student rather than how they, the teacher swung or how they played that mattered?
Ok, granted it might be more kudos to the teacher if they can really play as well as teach but as it was alluded to before, well known teachers tend to be very busy either teaching, running a shop etc so the time that they can devote to their own games is pretty minimal, there are only so many hours in the day and golf isn't everything.
JMHO.
Alex

I am with you part of the way. For me the teacher must have a real true understanding of stroke patters with the ability to communicate combined with an analytical mind to get to the core of the player they are teaching to be a good teacher. A lot of teachers that can't play don't posses the qualities described so level of play can be an indicator. If the teacher has the knowledge but very poor natural innate physical ability then poor standards of play are excusable and to be expected. vj in shooting 62 can clearly both teach and play and much of his day is taken up teaching. He must be one of the really fortunate ones with an innate natural ability to play golf . Others who are not as gifted can sill reach their potential and this is a better indicator. I take much more notice of guys like vj than the likes of Leadbetter and Scott Cranfield ( who I have seen play when he was practicing a lot :oops: ). A lot of the better players I know (Europro Tour players) take lessons from former European Tour player Peter Mitchell because he could both teach and play to a high standard. I have discussed this with several of them and many say that it is difficult to take advice from teachers that have NEVER played to a high standard . I think most of us can relate to this. Pelz vs Stan Utley is a good example of this.

Jim Ferree...
 

...has told me on several occasions that Peter Croker can REALLY golf his ball, but hates the nomadic, living out of a suitcase lifestyle, so he teaches. At one time I played alot with Rick Smith. He was a very very good player, but hurt his shoulder in college, and never became the player we all expected him to become.

I am always amazed that any golf instructor can hit a decent ball after watching and working with some the swings that come to their door step.

I think one factor with a number of the older instructors is that time has a bigger factor on them, lack of playing as well as aging. Their games of yesterday will slip over time I would think since they don't pay attention to them probably like they should.

My only requirement for a teacher (as far as their games) is that they can hit shots.

If they can't, they really have no idea.

I haven't beat anyone in the last 100 years, but on the range....


:wink: