FIX
 

At Fix... Tom Tomasello taught that the Clubface should be slightly open.
I believe he wanted the face increasingly a little more OPEN as the clubs got longer.

What do you think? For Hitters... this is probably a little different.

He believed that one of the major causes of throwaway was..."trying to hit the back of the ball with a square clubface".

Open...for horizontal hinging...more open as the club gets longer ...

angled hinging as the club gets longer...more closed

Exactly.

that is why people who "swing" and "full roll it" like driver heads with OPEN FACES.

this is also why people who "hit" and "half roll it" like driver heads with CLOSED FACES.

EX:

Vijay (swinger) = 3-4* open faces on his driver
Furyk (hitter) = 1-3* closed face on his driver

2-J-1
 

Per 2-J-1 "The longer the SHOT", not "The longer the CLUB".

For most of you, including annikan, jim, lagster - you already know that. You were saying longer club and assuming that you are talking about a longer shot. Although a longer club doesn't always mean a longer shot. However for anyone new or learning- the clarification could help them. For those new to TGM the next question is " Why more open the longer the shot?" Because as again, most know by now- the more compression, the more distance the clubhead travels and the more the face closes while the ball is on the face.

Now the real question is- if on the longer shots the face closes enough while the ball is on the face- to make alterations in the amount the clubface is open at impact fix for horizontal hinging, then how long of a distance is the ball traveling on the clubface/clubhead? And how does that integrate with the Golfing Machine concept that the ball always leaves at right angles to the clubface- i.e. that the return flow is so fast that the ball doesn't ride on the clubhead/face long enough for the down and out vector of the clubhead to influence the initial direction of the ball?

Mike O.

Mike O...

Great Point.....I should never "ASSUME"

2-J-1

It does say "longer shot"..my fault for not having the book in front of me when making a POST

Thank you for that outstanding point!!!!


Skywalker

Re: 2-J-1
 

How much do you think the ball being used is a factor here? Clearly there is a difference between a 'distance' ball and say an old prof 90 in feel/softness, and I would guess (without having see any solid data) in result between a high vs low compression ball. Do you think this difference merits consideration in how open/closed the clubface should be at address?

golfball test
 

Edz, check out this site:

http://www.golfballtest.com/index.php

Re: 2-J-1
 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Good point!!!! A chip shot with a 5 iron would br different than a full shot in this regard.

Re: 2-J-1
 

And such is the genius of Mr. Kelley. This guy must have been amazing. Shame that he missed out on the internet . . . or even more a shame for us.

PROCEDURE
 

Getting the CLUBFACE, LEFT HAND GRIP, and #3 PRESSURE POINT properly aligned at FIX, as one takes one's grip, is very important.
What procedure do some of you use to accomplish this?

Re: PROCEDURE
 

I actually simulate low point rather than impact. I take the left hand grip on the Horizontal Plane. Get the left arm extended straight out in front of you from the shoulder. Then grip the club with the toe pointing at the sky and in the plane of the left forearm and wrist flat. The club is square at low point not impact. So when you address the ball normally, the clubface will be slightly open.

My miss has typically been low left and I use 10-2-D rather than 10-2-B. So this procedure has helped with the left shot.

May not be exactly correct, but these alignments seem to work for me.

A good test to see if your left hand grip is solid is once you have placed your left hand onto your grip, squeeze the last three fingers a little. Watch the face of your club. If it closes a lot the grip is incorrect...............

Would this be an indication of too much #3 angle?

Re: 2-J-1
 

So ball doesn't always leave perpendicular to clubface, especially when the impact interval is long?

For a putter, as long as you have a square clubface, it doesn't matter how much inside-out or outside-in the clubhead path is, the ball will still go along the target line.

But for a driver, because of greater compression, it's not the same? Please explain in more detail Mike...

Re: 2-J-1
 

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

MikeO will probably answer, but here is my take.

To produce a straight shot with a centrifugal force type stroke, using HORIZONTAL HINGING... the ball is first contacted slightly before LOW POINT with a slightly OPEN CLUBFACE on the INSIDE QUADRANT of the ball. The ball stays on the face for a brief interval, then comes off square at separation.

With PUTTING... since aerodynamics is not really a factor, and because the ball compresses very little, the ball should be struck with a square face. The ball will still roll straight , as long as the ball takes off on the intended line. In theory, any sidespin imparted in putting, will take off a little force, but will not influence the direction. Some putting experts will undoubtedly disagree with this last part!

Re: PROCEDURE
 

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1172

I have found that the relationship between the body and club when using the above approach is a very good way to get proper impact/left wedge alingments for clubHEAD control and proper PP#3 placement. Personally, I use this for angled hinge applications (square to trail foot per link vs open for horizontal). There is an added benefit of the right wedge placement being quite simple here too.

Factors influencing initial ball flight direction
 

The essence of my comment was – Does the golf ball ride along with the clubhead during impact or does it jump right off before it has a chance to ride along with the clubhead? And correspondingly, why exactly does the clubface need to be set more and more open for Horizontal Hinging with longer shots? To answer the first question - TGM assumes that the ball jumps right off before riding on the clubhead.

Let’s start with taking as a fact that the golf ball leaves at right angles to the clubface- as Homer saw it- because the return flow was so quick. So again, the ball ALWAYS leaves at right angles to the clubface.

SO in the Golfing Machine that initial target line (initial direction of the ball before venturi effect could take place to curve the ball), say the first 6 inches of flight- would always be in the same direction as the clubface was pointing at separation. Assuming a straight shot – the clubface would always be pointing at the flagstick at separation.

Now, contrary to that thought, if the ball would actually stay on the clubhead/face while the clubhead traveled down and out- then- it to would be moving down and out, which would influence the initital direction of the ball’s flight. Although, it could still leave at right angles to the clubface- while also moving down and out, causing a ball flight that A) still left at right angles in relation to the clubface but B) as viewed from above would start off somewhere between the clubface direction and the clubhead direction. To further clarify that concept it might be simplest to use an example:

“Throwing a ball off a train”

If you always threw a ball off the train at right angles to the motion of the train-
If the train was not moving the ball flight would be at right angles to the train, but the faster the train is moving – the more the ball travels off in the direction of the motion of the train- even when throwing the ball at right angles off the train. The amount of force you use to throw the ball off the train at right angles also influences how much of an angle the ball actually flies on in relation to the train/track.

The golf swing may work in the same way- the clubhead is the train- if the ball travels on the train for a short period- anotherwords if the clubhead is still moving down and out, then the ball would also be moving down and out at that same speed- that is the force vector to the right. Now, the ball leaves the clubface at right angles- but since it is also traveling on the train i.e. clubhead- the resultant flight of the ball would be in between the direction of the face and the direction of the ball moving on the train- clubhead path. The actual path would be determined by the speed (and path) of the train (clubhead) and the speed and direction of the ball being thrown from the train (clubface).

So my question was this- If you need to open the clubface for horizontal hinging and the longer the shot, the more you open it, then to be consistent in the TGM world – you would be opening the face to the degree that you are compressing the ball- i.e. more compression would result in a longer length from the intitial compression to full compression and separation, but the ball would not ride along the clubhead path for any period. There would not be a time where the ball rides on the clubhead for ¾ of an inch. Because if it did ride on the clubhead for ¾ of an inch- down and out with the clubhead- then while the ball would leave 90 degrees in relation to the face- it would also leave somewhere between where the clubface is looking and where the clubhead path is heading- based on 1) quality of compression 2) clubhead path direction 3) clubface direction 4) clubhead force.

I was recently playing with a executive of the Titleist company in San Diego and asked him if the ball stayed on the clubhead/face and traveled with it or did it just jump right off before anymovement- and his answer was the same as Homer’s- jumped right off.

In summary, Homer at times said that the ball stayed on the clubhead/face for ¾ of an inch but always thought that the ball’s initial direction was where the clubface was pointing- which was a contradiction in my mind- if the ¾” was travel, but if the ¾” is compression- with no ball travel- then everything would be consistent. The only solution is that since the ball is a little wider than 1.5” that the ¾ of an inch is compression and not travel.

Not sure you or anyone else was interested in this- so I’ll apologize in advance if this post rambles. I think I answered my own question- and clarified the hinging issue- as Lagster alludes to- that with a putter and very little compression- the face would not be as open as with a Drive and more compression i.e. more face closing from impact to full compression.

Ball Compression
 

Mike,

Your post reminded me of this video. Note the ball compression sequence at the end.

www.lynnblakegolf.com/Video/ErnieEls.wmv

Bagger

Re: Factors influencing initial ball flight direction
 

Can you please explain further how the ¾ inch is all compression and not travel? :roll:

Looking at videos, it seems like there is compression and travel (although very little).

To summarise and clarify:
The ball leaves at right angles to clubface if it doesn't ride along the clubface during impact (ball only compresses).
Otherwise, initial ball direction is based on path and face.

Compression or Compression and Travel?
 

First, I'm really not sure myself if the ball travels on the clubhead for awhile or just bounces right off. In my opinion, TGM assumes that it has to bounce right off. Therefore, the more open for longer shots - Horizontal Hinging- issue, must mean the opening of the face is directly related to the amount of compression, more compression more closing before separation.

If the ball travels on the clubhead- I'm asserting that the ball still leaves the clubface at 90 degreess but because it's traveling down and out on the clubhead the ball doesn't start moving in the direction of the clubface - although seemingly a contradictory statement- see my train example above to understand the concept. This is one of the issues that I believe Homer would disagree with the "In Search for The Perfect Swing"- as they believed in this concept in their book. Homer always believed that the initial ball flight was always 90 degrees to the clubface.

Again, your question - really is the heart of the matter- is there travel or not? I would think that if there is travel, then the ball picks up the characteristics of the clubhead travel- i.e. 140 mph traveling down and out, which will influence ball flight characteristics.

In summary, I was just trying to assimilate the more open clubface alignment for longer shots, with the concept that the ball bounces immediately off the face - for insistence when hitting iron shots you don't carrry the ball into the ground, it jumps off the face before being driven into the ground. The amount of compression seems to be the answer in order to integrate TGM theory and concepts.

There are quite a few resources on the web which indicate that the golf ball is in contact with the golf club when hitting a driver (~ 100 MPH) for ~ 500 microsec (1e10-6). Given that information, one can calculate the distance the club travels with the ball in contact assuming constant velocity (keeping it simple).

100 MPH => 100 * (5280 ft / 3600 sec) * (12 in. / ft.) * 2.54 cm/in
= ~4500 cm/sec * 500e-6 = 2.25 cm ~ 0.89 in.

I don't know if this is all that useful or not. It would be better to have impact time vs. clubhead speed for a given ball type, but I have never seen that depedency measured or calculated. It would be easy enough to do with a high speed (very) camera and a repeatable club swinging device. Oh, well. Enough physics / math stuff. Back to work doing more physics / math stuff :)

Good Feedback
 

Thanks for the feedback- but I think - and you may already have implied- that we're really looking for something that shows the center of gravity of the ball or center of the ball- moving while the ball is on the clubface. Certainly the contact time period from impact to separation may not include any movement of the center of the ball.

I would expect that if the club face moves a little over 2 cm while in contact with the ball, then the center of the ball moves that much as well. Think of it this way. At initial contact, the center of the ball is 1/2 ball diameter from the club face. At the end of the contact period, ~ 500e-6 seconds later, the center of the ball is once again (approximately) 1/2 ball diameter from the club face. However, in the intervening time the club face has translated along the swing path ~ 2 cm. Therefore during that same time, the center of the ball has translated the same 2 cm.

I have not looked into this sort of thing in that much detail, but to first order my description above seems reasonable. It also may not be entirely pertinent to your discussion.

Going For A Ride
 

Per 2-D-0:

"The force of the Impact will hold the ball against the face of the orbiting Clubhead and so carry it along the same circular path. "

Re: Going For A Ride
 

Thanks Yoda for the useful quote. So (to answer Mike O's question) the center of gravity of the ball does move during impact interval?

If that's true, then according to Mike, there's a contradiction in TGM. But I think this hook-face thing Homer talks about on page 24, which diverts the ball from it's true tangential path, should save the day...2-D-0 has always been foggy to me.