How important is the Full Swing in Scoring Low?
 

Full Swing? 20%? 40%? 60%?

Yogi-ish
 

I wanted to let it go, but I just couldn't.
It's 100% important depending on how you look at it.
It's all about samenesses and differences.
The players who score low have the imperatives, the essentials, the functions and great short games!
100 % of it's mental.
100 % of it's physical.
Now, get out there and give 110%!

Hmmm....
 

Well, if your full swing puts you in the trees, creeks, lakes, and deep stuff, then I'd say it's the most important item!

The saying "drive for show, putt for dough" to me is a little bit misleading. If you can't get off the tee you can't play the game.

I'm right there with ya Trig. I always thought they needed to change that saying to "Drive for dough, Putt for dough". I've seen plenty of guys who could scramble like heck and keep their score in the satisfactory range by putting well, but it's hard to take it deep if you don't give yourself reasonable birdie chances by hitting fairways and greens. (Of course there's nothing worse than getting beat by one of those guys when you're hitting 13 fairways, 15 greens and then putting it 36 times or so!) :mad:

I really think it depends upon the level you are playing at.

My accuracy off the tee is normally very good, if I miss a fairway we are talking about inches and feet normally. Problem is once the course distance goes past a certain length or it has all par 4's of 420 plus, then my scoring hurts. I am not a long hitter. The full swing for the second shots are critical if I am going to score well, else I am going to be scrambling all day for pars with no opportunities for any birdies.

It IMO is really a balance and it is dependent upon the golfer skills, physical capabilities and mental abilities.

I think the real answer lies on the score card. If you are carding anything more than a bogey, I beleive you need to rethink your choices. If everytime you miss a fairway and have to chip out, then I believe you need to rethink your choices. Long and lost or Long and a penalty stroke doesn't make for low scores.

It all counts on the score card...

I believe the importance of the long game is determined by

1) Short game ability and
2) Objectives in the game (single figure, scratch, tour etc)

scoring
 

Statistically speaking, the ONLY factor that determines your place on the money list is how well you scramble. BUT, as others have said "long and wrong" don't ring the gong. I think accuracy off the tee is probably more important than raw distance. But, if you are a shorter hitter, you had better have a very accurate fairway game with the longer clubs. Paul Runyon (Little Poison) springs to mind. ;)

Merry xmas,
Fred

That is true for Tour Professionals. For the average guy, short game is a way to easily improve. BUT, short game is useless for any competitive golf if you are hitting 3 from the tee a lot.

Even Pelz admitted there are ball striking minimums. He said that the tour guys average 7% error on full shots. The best players were lower and there were players that were higher. IIRC 10% error on full shots was the minimum for "tour" performance. If you couldn't manage 10% error on full shots, you weren't going to be on tour to have your scrambling measured.

The scrambling correalation isn't exactly true for the current top 5 money winners.
1. Tiger 1st in GIR, 10th scrambling
2.Furyk 5th in GIR, 4th scrambling
3. Mickelson 14th in GIR, 128th in scrambling
4. Ogilvie 144th in GIR, 50th in scrambling
5.Vijay 26th in GIR, 45th in scrambling

Looking at Tiger and Furyk, I think the GIR and Scrambling are linked. They aren't missing many greens, and I would bet that when they do, it isn't by much, leaving easier shortgame shots.

My $0.02


Spalding

Extremely important.... I don't think you can put a %age on it. But ultimately golf is a game of inches and feet....drive it in the rough and you don't control the approach as well, have trouble from 200 yds and you miss a couple of greens etc and people with major flaws hit it all over the place ...you don't get up and down from water...You just can't make many 15+ foot putts. And if you hit it too crooked you can't get yourself in positions to hit chips and pitches inside 6 or 7 ft. Clearly birdies come from good approaches or rare (at least for me rare)on the green in 2 par 5's ... you aren't on in 2 on a par 5 if you haven't hit it solid on your intended line.

Another related point... it is hard (not impossible, just hard)to have a good short game if your full swing isn't good. You can putt good with a poor full swing, but generally shots inside 100yds are mildly effected by the same issues that cause your full swing to suffer.

The first 6 months of this year I believed I had a real breakthrough... I'll spare you the details but I had a number of firsts and got my index down to .8.... but this is what I've found... I am hitting the ball straighter and more solidly than I've ever hit it... however, if I can't hit it further I'm not getting any better. I can't hit 175yd+ shots inside 15 ft. very often, so I may hit 14 gir... but if I'm not close enough it doesn't mean birdies.

I think high hc's can impact their score more quickly with short game... then, full swing is more important from say 12-13hc up to fairly high levels of amateurs... then pretty much everyone has a good full swing and short game becomes more and more important right thru to the pros, but you aren't going to chip in much and you don't make a lot of long putts so if you are going to win, you gotta control your golf ball.

Check out the PGA stats for par 5 birdies.
Seems to be the most revelant stat other than scoring average.
Long and straight off the tee and fairway seems to rule.

Mr. Nicklaus
 

I heard Mr. Nicklaus talking about this once... he said he practiced his long clubs the most...Driver--Long irons. He thinks driving it long and straight is very important.

Full swing is everything but about 10 shots in my case. It seems that no matter how well, or poorly I strike the ball, it is the short game that accounts for a good vs average vs poor score that day.

My scores tend to average a certain 'baseline' and a good day is about five shots better, a bad day five shots worse, than that average.

I can have a great ball striking day, and shoot my average with less than great putting, or a poor ball striking day and shoot a good score with a hot putter and good chipping. Almost always in that 10 shot window.

Of course if I play often, that average baseline goes down and the variation gets much smaller than 10 shots, but with very little play in the past year (maybe 10 rounds total), the 10 shot window is about right.

I think it also depends on your overall strategy and approach to the game. If you hit driver on every hole, even if you hit it pretty straight, your short game better be good or you won't score. If you think your way around, play to certain yardages for approach shots, etc... then your short game is less of a factor...still a major factor, but your full shots become more imortant tee to green IMO.

Gir
 

Don't agree. I believe the more important stat is GIR. The long hitters on average out drive the short hitters by 20 to 30 yards and they tend to have better GIRs. When they're in the short grass they can have one to two less clubs into the greens (the second shot advantage). So, let's hit'em LONG AND STRAIGHT.

DG

It seems to me that, as a higher handicapper, the full swing is more important, and that the pendulum shifts toward the short game the better you get. I'll give you an example. My brother and I played 9 today. I'm about a 25, he's a single digit handicap. On decent hits, length is about equal. Now my putting is a little better than his, particularly this early in the season (only the second round for both of us). Of course he dusted me. But I beat him on 2 holes, because I was able to match him on the full swing shots; only in those instances did the short game matter. On the rest of the holes, as far as our "competition" was concerned, my putting touch became a moot point, because I could barely get the ball airborne. My point? Most higher handicappers are such because they can't get the ball to go anywhere near where they want it to go on a consistent basis. When they can get around the green in regulation on a regular basis (the result of an improved full swing), then the short game's importance increases relative to the player's overall game. You could be a short game genius, but if you finally reach the green only after 4 or 5 shots, your score will still suck :)

Amen Brother.:salut:

You have just spoken for 90% + of the golfing population, even though most of them are loth to admit it.
Only the remaining few % experience the joy that a decent short game can bring them.

Game On!
 

A good long game (full swing) will lower the highest score you are going to shoot.

A good short game and mental approach will lower the lowest score you are going to shoot.

In a nutshell.:salut:

Great point. Won't get too much disagreement on that.

The long game makes a big difference.

There is a clear relation between handicap and ball striking distances.

stats!!!
 

why do people get lost in the stats?what do they REALLY tell you?

for example, ive played several times on my home course and hit 18 greens,great must have played well?usually yes,but i have shot level par for one of those rounds(one birdie and one 3 putt bogey),must have putted badly?NOPE!what did i work on after the game,putting right?NOPE!my irons,i dont three putt very often from ten feet,so i obviously wasnt hitting it close enough.
i hit wedges into 9 of those greens and only made ONE birdie BECAUSE of poor distance control.

if you take VJ Singh as an example,he hits driver long with left to right fade.bad shot is pull hook for him.when he hits that off the tee,he has to chip out or hit miracle shot,so after chipping out still has 7/8 or 9 iron left to scramble from.hence his poorish scrambling stats,ask anyone out on tour about his short game and they will tell you how good it is.

so,why do people get lost in the stats?

how important is the long game?very!
how important is the short game?very!
how important is strategy?very!
how important is fitness?very!

how do we get better?learn to improve all of the above slightly so that your bad shots are better and your good shots happen more often!then you will improve greatly!

happy golfing,
David McCallum
Head P.G.A Professional
MacGolf Thailand.

I have gone back on this topic, been all over the map.

Then I came across a study by Lucius Riccio, using all types of golfers, pros to hdcp, over 10,000 rounds were analyzed.

GIRs seem to have the most influence over your score followed by putting. His study does indicate that 'blow up' holes through most studies and his is well off.

I did a compare of his results against mine and it is scary how accurate it is.

Basically to break 80 you need 8 Girs and 32 putts.

Obviously being able to get a GIR means you need to keep the ball in play and no penalties.

So very good points . . . question for you . . . do you think that the average guy may have a glaring weakness on one of the areas that you have listed above and thus could make a marked improvement just in that particular area reducing his handicap?

Obviously you have made a very good point that all areas are important but could some be more important than others to a particular player with regards to their improving in the shortest amount of time?

Very good points.

Yes!
 

To be frank yes,I DO think that each individual player needs to intelligently evaluate THEIR game and work on what THEY need to make them better golfers.

this may be one area,possibly more,BUT stats RARELY show TRUTH and each department of the game deserves FULL attention.

let me add another point,from a pro game aspect.most right handed golfers would im sure prefer to hit putts that are UPHILL and/or RIGHT TO LEFT,so to make MORE birdies is it better to FADE or DRAW the ball?

happy golfing,
dmac

Hi,

picking up this one, since I just read a lot.

I think it perfectly makes sense to improve on all aspects of the game, but let me emphazise on %age shots, esp from the tee to leave yourselve with an option to reach for a GIR.

We have a mid long Par 5 about 490m uphill, and you have 2 choices with the tee shot: rip your driver as high as a lob wedge over a small forrest to leave you with the opportunity to go for it in 2 OR play a 4 iron over a pond and short of a little river and continue from there.

Since I can hit probably 10% of my drives high enough to go over the forrest, I prefer to use the 4 iron for hte tee shot on a PAR 5 and still can reach in GIR and if not, I have played many more pars there then on other Par5 which I tried to reach in 2 and failed.

Knowing your game is crucial and build your strategy around that makes your day scoring wise.