Two Camps
 

There seem to be two main camps when it comes to weight training, or conditioning in general... 1. NO PAIN, NO GAIN 2. LISTEN TO YOUR BODY

What do you think is a good balance of the two, or is there one. To get stronger, one must apply the OVERLOAD PRINCIPLE... is this correct? However, one must know when to STOP, to avoid injury... is this correct?

I don't weight train specifically for golf, but the principles are the same. First, 'no pain, no gain' - I personally think this doesn't mean beat your body into oblivion but rather actually do some work while you're at the gym. Training with very light weights, well below your max for a given number of sets/reps, long rest times between sets, doing inefficient isolation movements, etc. all will not produce the results you're looking for. But at the outset we need to figure out just what are the results we're looking for. Are we looking for hypertrophy (size), pure strength, functional golf strength? Either way you're going to be doing some exercises that are going to stress your muscles (thus the 'pain') and put you in positions you're not used to being in.

To make gains you're going to have to overload your muscles - that is, push them harder than you have before. Doing a given exercise for the same sets/reps with the same weight for 10 weeks is not going to make you stronger. You're simply going to adapt to that training load and stay there. As far as injury goes, there are plenty of good training programs you can do that will avoid injury and overtraining. If you're a complete novice then obviously start with lower volume and learn correct exercise form and use a full range of motion! I cannot stress this enough. The vast majority of people I see in the gym are using terrible form, too much weight, or a combination of both. Most of the time it's the fact that they're using too much weight that leads to the poor form. It pains me because these people are not going to be making any gains and instead are probably heading down the road to injury.

Balanced Exercise
 

Really good advise from Matt.

The only other thing I can add is never ramp up on poundages until you can control the weight. You must always stay in control with good form. Stay in balance with every exercise you do. Very much like the golf swing in that respect.
Age is also a big factor in gaining strength. You will gain strength, stamina, and size at any age, but the older we are the longer the process takes. Be patient, allow yourself to recover because that is when the gains actually happen, and you must make sure your diet is adjusted for the new demands on your body.
Finally, you will experience muscle soreness. Especially when you are first starting. Small muscle fibers are torn, tendons and ligaments are stretched. The soreness goes away within a day or two after the muscle has repaired itself and more muscle fibers are added to handle the new load. That is what recovery is all about.
Finally, finally...drink water constantly throughout the day. Every day.

Bagger

Like I mentioned to Yoda in a PM, I have been lifting weights of late.

There is a principle in Physiology called the Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands or SAID for short.

Why should your body pack on more muscle if you do not demand of it?

How do you impose this demand?

By creating a state of emergency in your body.

To us, packing on muscles is for aesthetics rather than function, to the body, it is a chore.

Having more muscles means more work for the body. In a state of equilibrium, the body wants as little muscles to maintain as possible.

Therefore, to trick the body into building more cellular muscles we have to make it react in a life or death way.

We need to utilise enough intensity during weight training to trigger a response in the Central Nervous System so that the body is thinking, "If such a situation (workout) hits us again, we better be prepared for it", then the workout is useless for mass gain.

As with the golf swing, good form in weight training is important so that we actually hit the targeted muscles and not some auxiliary ones.

rule of thumb
 

max weight, 8-10 sets of 1-2 exercises = bodybuilding.
60-70% of max weight, 3 sets of 8-10 exercises = strenght training.
20-30% of max weight, set of 100-120+ exercises = stamina training

Building muscle means working to failure, which is where the "no pain, no gain" thing should come from. Some recent studies indicate that you can get as much out of a one-set routine as a three- or four-set routine if you work to failure. You also must know your body well enough to know the difference between muscle failure and ripping tendons and ligimants.
An added benefit of adding muscle, I'm not talking Arnold here, is that it takes more calories to maintain, therefore it increases your metabolism and helps you lose extra fat. Exercise not only burns calories while you are doing it but also for a period afterward because it increases your metabolism.

It is not worthwhile to work to failure very often. "Maxing out" should only occur once in a great while due to the taxing it gives your central nervous system. Working near your maxes at every workout will wear you out in very little time and your gains will stall.

I personally subscribe to a "periodization" program of training where during a given week there's a heavy (Mon), light (Wed), and medium (Fri) day. It's more of a powerlifting strength-training type of workout and it'll wear you out fast if you're going full-bore during every workout. Mondays, for instance, I'm working very close to my maxes at the final sets of an exercise (let's say squats for example). Wednesdays are lighter, less overall volume, and working at maybe 70% of my max on squats. Friday I'm doing a bit more work at lighter weights then a couple sets at a near-max weight, then back down to a lighter weight.

The idea here is that fatigue is an 'accumulated' thing. 'Fitness' lasts longer than 'fatigue', but for that fitness to be apparent you can't be excessively fatigued. If you work at near-max weights during every workout, you will run yourself into the ground (I've made this mistake myself) and your fatigue doesn't have a chance to rebound. If you periodize, those light days and weekends off give your body some time to recover and be ready for a hard Monday workout. Then it eases through a bit (but there's still a good training load on Wed) until Friday where you're pushed hard again. Obviously different things work for different people (as much in weight training as in G.O.L.F.) so definitely experiment but don't be afraid to change programs if the results are not what you desire. And if you want big results...eat big!

Listen up guys, Matt knows his stuff. This is Dual Factor Theory explained. I got a feeling a large number of people on this forum won't be able to train like us 'young guns'...well, not to begin with anyway.
Core stability is important, but no amount of Swiss Ball and Bosu Ball work will give you the strength gains you get from a solid free weight training program. I’m of the opinion that you can't have a weak core (or Traverse Abdominals or whatever you like to call it) and still squat 300lb or power clean 200lb with proper technique. Those guys on the long drive tour are undoubtedly very strong species. Of course, all this isn't mandatory if you just want to have a knock about and stay injury free.

Good Info
 

Good input from all!!

I recently saw a man that gave me golf specific exercises. One of them is the ONE LEGGED SQUAT. This one is pretty difficult... especially since I have a problem with the right SI Joint. I was told that this would help me, however, along with some other exercises for hip, leg, and foot stability.

In their studies... something like 90% of golfers had some instability when moving laterally into the LEFT(lead)LEG.

Bucket's Work-Out Routine
 

I walk







right on past the Gold's Gym . . . on the way to the Golden China Buffet. Them little fried hungry jack biscuits with the sugar on 'em. DAMN.

Thanks Leo. "Dual factor" meaning that you manage and plan around both 'fitness' and 'fatigue.' Versus "single factor" where you're only focused on the 'fitness' aspect and do not plan for overall lighter weeks where you drop weight across the board ('de-loading' in dual factor programs). If you're a beginning you really only need to worry about "single factor" because you'll see gains almost regardless of what you do.

As far as core work goes, all I really do are some assorted ab exercises. Like Leo mentioned, your core gets some very good stress from big compound exercises. You are forced to have core stability when you pulling 225 lbs. off the floor for a deadlift or squatting 250 lbs. This is why Leo has pretty much convinced me that wearing a lifting belt is more detrimental to progress rather than helpful because it lets you get away with having weaker abs (because it acts like strong abs by increasing inter-abdominal pressure and thus lower back support). It won't allow the same core development that lifting without a belt will.

Leo and I love this stuff so ask away with questions!

Working to failure and working your max are two different things. If I have to workout alone I can use an excercise as simple as pushups to get me to failure.

I very seldom attempt my single rep max because that's not really a goal of mine anymore. When I was 22, it was. Now I'm 37, and it's not. There are different ways to get to failure, like I think Matt pointed out. You can do heavy weight, few reps; lighter weight, more reps. Workouts vary as to the goal and should always include some regeneration time. I prefer short workouts so I do a lot of compound exercises as well.

EDIT: Wow. This Dual Factor Theory stuff sounds cool. I'm going to re-evaluate my workouts and see if this can help me out. I work at a school that specializes in treating obese teens and we have two personal trainers on staff. I'm going to see if they can put together a new routine for me. What I was doing sounds like it was a good pre-routine, routine. I started excercising again about 6 months ago and changed my diet as well. I've lost 35 pounds, four pant sizes and two belts. I carry my clubs for 18 and have no problem and the next day all feels good. Now maybe I can start going in a different direction. I left my original posts to show that I'm always open for learning and willing to admit that being Old Skool is sometimes foolish. Thanks, Matt.

I would first off suggest trying out a 'single factor' program. Take a good week off and then start it up. You should extract all the gains you can from this type of program before worrying about 'dual factor.' In single factor, the goal is basically to increase weight each week. Obviously at some point this isn't going to be possible but it will be for quite awhile. I have mine set up with a spreadsheet that tells me all the weights I should be using for a given week for each workout (after I input my maxes). Weeks 1-3 are lighter, I hit my given 'max' during week 4, then progress past it in the next several weeks.

Think about it: would you rather be adding weight to the bar each week or only every several weeks? Best case is every week. But for advanced lifters that won't be possible, so you have to include entire weeks where you 'de-load' your weights to allow for some dissapation of fatigue so you can keep progressing. But this is a good distance down the road for most people, myself included.

This really is great reading for people who are interested in this sort of thing. I'm a big fan of this school of thought because it not only makes good sense but so many people achieve good results. Shoot me a PM if you want some more reading material and sample programs. Be warned though that what I'm doing isn't exactly golf-specific but rather more of an overall strength-training program with 90% focus on major compound lifts and very little time spent doing 'beach' work. Naturally you can add flexibility training and whatnot to it but the original program was constructed for, shall we say, physical contact sports.

Another info packed post from Matt.
The whole idea of a well designed free weights program is that you develop transferable functional strength and power. Just because a squat or power clean doesn't resemble a golf stroke, it doesn't mean it won't add power to it. In fact, it's quite the contrary.

The reason why doing isolation work produce suboptimal results is the same reason why barbells work so well. The human body functions as a complete system -- it works that way and it likes to be trained that way. The 'Training Specificity' camp believes that you must acquire strength in a very similar way in which the strength will be used. However, it is the nervous system that controls the muscles, i.e. 'neuromuscular'. There is no such thing as neuromuscular specificity, and exercise programs must respect this principle the same way they respect the Law of Gravity.

Barbell and dumbell programs when properly performed are essentially the functional expression of human skeletal and muscular anatomy under a load. Balance between all the muscles used in the movement is inherent in the exercise because all the muscles involved contribute their anatomically determined share of the work. Free weights allow weight to be moved in exactly the way the body is designed to move it, since every aspect of the movement is determined by the body.

Unfortunately, most people don't know how to do barbell training correctly. And most people who claim to know how don't :( .

I've pretty much been doing the single factor stuff for some time. My stance on the "golf specific" stuff is that it is not for me. I'd rather focus on my overall health and physique than worry about what's supposed to be good specifically for golf. Free weights are great because they force you to focus on balance, which takes strength. I think people forget that sometimes. I'll probably stay with the single factor program I've been doing just because I think it fits my goals better. That may change in time.

Like I mentioned you should stay with single factor as long as you can. You should add weight every week (or just about) for as long a period as you can. But everyone will reach their limit with that type of training and that's when you start playing around with the dual factor stuff. I'm currently on my second cycle through a very good single factor program (after a couple years of doing a 3-day split routine - with good gains for a while and then having them stall - looking back I see my mistakes and have learned from them) and I like the results I'm getting. My weights are still increasing and my exercise form has benefitted greatly, especially with squats since I'm doing them three times per week on my current program.

I foresee finishing this cycle through (another 5-6 weeks) then stepping back and evaluating where I am. From there I may try a third cycle through or maybe a different powerlifting-type program. And by 'cycle', I mean an 8 week schedule. I determine my 5 rep maxes and using a spreadsheet I have that will show me all the weights I need to use for every set of every exercise for all eight weeks. Once I started feeling worn out on my first cycle, I took a week off and reset my weights (inputed my new 5 rep maxes taking into account gains I've made over the past two months) and basically started over again. Now I've just finished week two of this second cycle and am still going strong.

Overall
 

Overall fitness is obviously important... just for one's general health. In most cases it probably does help with golf also.

There may, however, be SOME exercises and activities that could be detrimental to GOLFERS.

Some of the one's I've heard are bad for golf...

Swimming
Pushups
Weight lifting that greatly increases pec and shoulder girth
Forward lunges... lateral are OK
Bowling
Some yoga poses... may cause too much flexibility resulting in instability

What do you think?

So are these exercises bad for golf?
Swimming. I don't think so!
Pushups. I don't think so! (How many pushups do you need to do to get pecs half the size of Arnold's? Answer: you can't by doing pushups)
Weight lifting. I don't think so! (Try telling the world number one player. Oh, and number two. And number three...)
Bowling. I don't think so! Do you bowl 24/7? Probably not. If the ball is too heavy, then use a lighter one or get stronger.
Yoga and too much flexibility. I don't think so!

Obviously I'm assuming you're doing the above with proper technique.

Bad
 

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You may be right. If so... many of the old timers were/are wrong!!

For years, many if not most tour players, would not go near a swimming pool.

The push up thing I think has been around for a long time... you are probably correct on this, but they probably should not be done to the extreme.

I agree, if one stays reasonably flexible... WEIGHT LIFTING should be OK. I heard from Hank Haney that Tiger benches about 200lbs.-- for repetition

The bowling thing I heard from the head of the KMX Lab. Someone asked him what would probably be the worst sport for golf. He said probably "bowling". I guess, because it involves an unstable lead foot(sliding), and it is on a different plane than golf. Forward rather than lateral motion.

Yoga... I heard from this same fellow. Certain poses he says are detrimental to golf. If a person is fairly rigid, and needs some more flexibility... probably OK. He said something like, "golf is a stability sport."

He says that many people are working out now, and this will probably help their health, but may not necessarily help their golf... may even be somewhat harmful in some cases when the wrong things are emphasized.

It is a ridiculous idea to suggest that the more flexible you are the less ability you have to be stable. Stability is about how you balance forces and shouldn't be mixed up with your range of motion. Let’s say we have an experienced Yoga practitioner who's very flexible. However, his golf stroke is unstable. Does that mean he should stop doing yoga, and become less flexible, which would increase his stability? Of course not! His lack of balance is not because he's "over-flexible". It's because he has a poor sense of balance and force.

And his argument against bowling is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. It's based on the logic -- "activity y does not require sliding/lateral (or whatever) motion but activity x does require it. Therefore activity x is detrimental to activity y". So is walking detrimental to golf? Does that mean dancing is detrimental to golf? Complete baloney.

Sorry if I sound over emotional...gotta let some steam out :D

Guy
 

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Dr. Paul Juris Ed.D.--- PGA Kinematics Lab

PhD in Motor Learning

Cutting Edge information in motor learning as it relates to Sports. He has worked with world class/professional athletes in various sports. Definitely believes that certain activities are detrimental to the optimal performance in other activities.
He went into some detail on this at a couple of seminars I heard.

Baseball pitchers, for example, have a much different workout than golfers, due to the stresses on the arm and shoulder of the pitcher.

Golfers generally need more emphasis on back, hip, leg, foot, certain back muscles, etc.. They do a MOTION ANALYSIS to determine the specific target needs of an individual... for their sport. I believe this place now mainly works on golfers.. tour players and amateurs.

He did not like certain yoga things for golf, and did not like those squishy discs to stand on(that some golfers are using to train with).

I'm not saying I agree with everything necessarily, but a fellow with his background may know a few things.

I think the motor learning aspects of golf and sport are just starting to break the ice.

One camp
 

If you want to get stronger and stronger you need to continue to overload the body so it can adapt. At some point, genetics and nutrition will play a limiting role in terms of how stong you can get.

As one gets older it becomes more and more important to do weight bearing exercises. Even if it's just a maintenance program.

Not to distract from the main thread, but there are actually courses in my area that 'charge' you to walk if you are a member. A 'walking fee'.

Does that mean using the buggy is free? :p

Walk
 

.................................................. .....

Let's take this thread a different direction. Do you play better when you WALK or RIDE? Does it make any difference?

I think it's mostly psychological. If you think you'll play badly if you ride, then that's probably what's going to happen. I personally prefer walking just because I'm used to it, and also that's what the pros do!

I only ride if it's included in the greens fee. Last summer at the country club I worked at they let me play most evenings and then I rode and got in 9 holes in 45 minutes. I enjoy playing reasonably fast so when I'm alone and riding I usually play pretty well. But there's nothing worse than catching up to someone and having it slow down your round.

Other than that though, I always walk. Did all through high school because we had to and everyone I play with walks. It's a great way to enjoy the day and always invites some good conversation.

Everyone should be walking unless they really 'need' a cart.

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!!

Golf was made for WALKIN' period end of story. I carry my sack even though I'm fat. . . . but I got to play with a caddy once at No. 2. Right after the Open. Michael Jordan and Joe Morgan played 3 groups ahead of me. That was one good day. Stopped and hammered some chicken at Bojangles afterwards . . . life was good.

I wish courses would start more caddy programs. I'd like to go caddy at No. 2. during the summers. That would be fun. I immediately took the conversation to the lowest common denominator with the caddy . . . nekked chicks etc. He said he had caddied for Trump and he was cool dude but had stanky breath. No telling what he said about mine . . .