How Flat is Flat?
 

The Flat Left Wrist is one of the Imperatives, but how FLAT is flat? Back in the Square to Square days... the FLW was IN, but I believe many people probably actually got it ARCHED. The same is probably true today with TGM.

One can play with ARCHED, but Flat is probably better for most. Depending on one's grip... FLAT may visually LOOK a little BENT("equivalent"). Also, the way one's hand and wrist bone is per individual varies, so the look can vary.

Of course, if one CHOOSES to employ DOUBLE WRIST ACTION, the wrist will be BENT... at the TOP. With most good players, it Flattens during the IMPACT INTERVAL.

The left wristcock motion is a perpendicular motion from the impact alignments (flying wedges)- up and down. Therefore the more turned that the grip becomes - the more that the wristcock motion turns into a wristbend but its still geometrically flat to the plane of the left wrist motion (left flying wedge). It is perhaps most preferable to have the grip set as such that the wristcock is truely flat so that it can be monitored easier.

Precisely. Good post.

Nicely put. Is the left wrist bend (visual bend) at the top or end then comparatively the same as it appears if you cocked the left wrist in the impact fix location (or when the left arm-club flying wedge is intact)?

With golfers of a 10 handicap and higher (more or less), I have had very little success with anything but visually flat. Even with strong-ish grips.

Is that why "Flat" is in quotes?...A geometric Flat Left wrist with a visually bet left wrist 10-2-G.

:D :D :D :D :D :D

Doing it right....
 

The flying wedges maintain the correct impact alignments during the stroke. If you teach someone to change these alignments during the stroke it isn't 'doing it right' by Brian Manzella, its 'doing it wrong' by Brian Manzella. I don't care if its a 10 handicapper or a golfer who's average drive goes 30 yards - The only shortcuts are more and more know how. The flying wedges is a piece of that know how.

At impact fix the left wrist is vertical to the respective plane of the hinge action you wish to apply. The no.2 accumulator, the left wrist, moves the clubhead up and down in a perpendicular motion relative to its 'vertical' plane - as to not change the impact alignments of the clubface with its motion. Remember, the no.2 accumulator is a clubhead motion, not a clubface motion (thats acc no.3's role) ....and thats how to 'do it right'.

Mathew,

If the back of the left hand faces down the angle of approach at impact fix, with the left arm and clubshaft in line, then is it perfectly vertical to the horizontal plane (horz Hing)? I'm a little confused here. I agree with what you are saying. Wristcock perpendicular/clubhead motion. But does that mean that all weak single action grips will have no slight bend at the top and all strong single action grips will? Even my questions sound foggy.

If you imagine the whole primary lever assembly (left arm and club) flat against a door to represent the plane of the hinge action that your left wrist is vertical to at fix, the wristcock motion during the stroke will make the clubhead go up and down that door in a perpendicular motion.

The golfing machine defines weak and strong differently than the rest of the golfing world. Homer Kelley defined a strong grip as one that the pressure points where on plane otherwise it is labelled weak. The 'golf digest world' labels it dependant on how turned the hand is.....

The more turned the hand is at impact fix - the more the perpendicular motion of the left will move from wristcock to wristbend.

But if it works....is it really doing it wrong?

Thats the problem it doesn't work....

I thought the goal was to simplify motion, not complicate it...

Mathew,

Yes, I understand. I use both Horizontal and angled Hinging effectively. I swing. My confusion may exist in the definitions of weak and strong. I agree with strong having the pressure points on the aft side of the shaft and pressure toward the angle of approach. Anything left of that is weak. But let me ask you this: In a strong single action grip, can there be a space between the left thumb and left forefinger? Your answer may solve all my questions. Traditional (less knowledgable) Teaching says yes, but maybe TGM says not necessary but I don't know. Can you answer this?

Also it says somewhere that the #2 pressure point replaces the #3 pressure point in a weak single action grip. Did I say that right. When I get home tonight I'll find the reference.

Yes, there must be a space since the right thumb should be on the aft side of the shaft (when Grip is taken at Impact Fix) to give maximum support during Impact.

I understand why it's important to maintain the Wedges....

....

But.....Brian said it works for most of his students.....so I believe him.

....

....he's got a few more lessons under his belt than you or I.

Maybe he'll elaborate more....if there's more elaborating that can be done.

In the photos of 10-2-B you can see quite clearly a gap between the thumb and 1st finger. This is how you can have the left thumb aft and the wrist truely flat against the vertical plane your hinge action requires.... or at least closer to it....

I'll have a look at the book at the weak single action grip later on to answer as im not so familiar with the specific variation... how I wish I had Yoda's capacity for remembering everything...

Get Mathew some water!!!! HE IS ON FIRE!!!
 

You are doing a fabulous job in this thread Mathew. Enjoying your "holding court." These quotes seem to be very "detailed", but Mathew is pointing out the very PRECISE alignments that are critical to the operation of your Machine bustin' up Plane Lines.

Grip type has a HUGE impact on your release motion. Mathew what is your preferred grip type, release motion and "stock" hinge action?

Great posts!

Mathew,

Let me correct myself in saying that Traditional Teaching methods want the forefinger and thumb to pinch together ala Ben Hogan. I must agree with you in observing the photos that there is a space between the forefinger and left thumb. I thought perhaps that this was an oversight. However the photos also illustrate that there is a difference in the abount of left hand turn between a weak left hand and strong left hand.

If a space is allowed between the forefinger and thumb on the left hand in a weak single action grip, then how does one resolve the "seems like a problem" left thumb not seating perfect with the grip(ie. thumb pad not in complete contact with the grip). If I turn my left hand like the photo of the strong single action the thumb seats fine. Does it matter?

Firstly thank you for your praise :) .

My procedure for aquired and total motion is a swinging procedure - 10-2-B Grip, Horizontal Hinging. The swinging procedure nessesitates a sequenced release per law of the flail in 2-K. My Basic Motion however is a push basic hitting stroke with angled Hinging.

I have played around with the hitting procedure with some success but in retrospect, at the time I did, my knowledge was lacking.

Couples
 

Good responses!!

So... is someone like Fred Couples, who has a bent left at the Top, using using Double Wrist Action, or Single with a bend(because of his grip)?

Per 10-2-0 . . .

10-2-0 GENERAL Grip Types are classified according to:
1. Whether the Hands are at right angles or parallel with A. each other or B. the Ground
2. The location of the #3 Pressure Point
3. The extent of certain Wrist Action per 10-18-0. Two Actions – Horizontal (4-A) and Perpendicular (4-B) regardless of Rotational Positions (4-C) – plus two Wrists make possible four combinations of Actions.

10-2-D is Couples grip and this grip is called Strong Double Action because the Left Wrist not only cocks but bends.

This should also shed some light on it . . .

10-2-G TRIPLE OF QUADRUPLE When the above Grip Types are MODIFIED by Rotating the Hands so that either or both Wirsts cannot Cock On Plane without also Bending, Feel loses its geometric basis. Also the natural Wrist motions conflict. A bit of Left Wrist Turn properly becomes exactly the same amount of Double Wristcock to keep the Clubshaft On Plane and to maintain Impact Wrist Position. Except with a “True” Swing (6-B-3-0) where Centrifugal Force will produce the “geometric” Flat Left Wrist when there is actually a “visual” Bent Left Wrist. That is, the Clubshaft and the Left Arm are in a straight line per 6-B-3-0 and 2-K regardless of the Left Wrist Position. These procedures may be either “Weak” or “Strong” but either or both Wrist are Double Cocked per 10-18-B.

Yup, the usual grip that 'traditional' teaching has the thumb and 1st finger pinched. The 'weak' single action and weak in the sence that the left thumb and pp3 is turned to the top of the clubshaft. To do this grip is problematic to do due to the fact to get the no.3 pressure point on top it is hard for the right wrist to not be turned from vertical. It is 'essentially' possible though. The left wrist will remain unaffected(and is a likely result of the no-gap between the thumb and forefinger style when the wrist is flat to vertical) to repositioning the left thumb and in the photos 10-2-A/B, it is exactly the same as the strong single action grip in 10-2-B apart from the fact the thumb is now on top of the clubshaft instead of aft. Anyways what I'm trying to say is that the strong and weak single action differ only in the location of the pressure points - ideally they will not be 'turned more' from vertical.

Look at any impact pictures of freddy - you will see that his wrist is not flat against the vertical plane of the hinge action, it is pretty turned. What becomes 'his' perpendicular motion of #2 ... think about it....

Good
 

...............................................

Very good all! Keep it up!

How about... Zinger, Duval, Langer, Ed Fiori, and maybe some will remember Judy Rankin?

Classify Grip and Hinge Action...

10-2-D STRONG DOUBLE ACTION T/V/A Now the Right Wrist is Vertical and the Left Wrist is Turned to the top of the Clubshaft so that the Left Wristcocking motion will be on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. The #3 Pressure Point and the left thumb are also on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend. Double Action – same as 10-2-C.

Very compatible with the Cut Shot procedures. Any Left Wrist Bend at Impact Fix should be maintained throughout the Stroke.

This Grip Type features maximum Wristcocking action and strong support for both Acceleration and Impact loads. The palm of the Right Hand moves toward Impact exactly like a paddle-wheel rotating On-Plane – no separate Rolling Motion until after Impact. See 10-10-C.

10-10-C ANGLED HINGE ACTION This simultaneous “Closing and Layback” procedure holds the Flat Left Wrist vertical to the Inclined Plane (2-D, 2-G). This is identical to the Paddle-Wheel motion of the straightening Right Arm but is a superior procedure (1-F). It greatly simplifies Hitting (10-19-A). The Shoulder Turn changes the appearance of this 10-18-C Wrist Action but not its Feel (see 7-10). Its Slice tendency must be compensated per 2-J-1. The “Laying Back” action makes Ball location very critical. Study 4-D-0.

1-F RIGHT ARM OR LEFT . . . However, you will save yourself much anguish by using the Right Hand just for sensing and controlling acceleration and the Left Hand just for sensing and controlling alignments. Right Hand – Clubhead. Left Hand – Clubface. Essentially, the Left Hand should be consciously Monitored (5-0) from Start Up (8-4) to Finish (8-12) so there will be no unintentional or panicky wobble. See 6-M-0. And variations in Elbow Bend and/or location during Release will disturb Clubface control by the Right Arm, making it an inferior procedure (7-2).


Zinger





You didn't ask but Buck

I think the answer to the question "How flat is flat?" can be found in the right wrist bend at impact fix. In this location the right arm flying wedge includes a precise amount of right wrist bend. Your left wrist will appear flat and vertical or your hand will have some degree of turn on the grip. As long as the right arm flying wedge with its fixed degree of right wrist bend is maintained, then you'll have a geometrically flat left wrist.

Backstroke visual check (swinger) is straight foreword. The flying wedges are assembled (swinger) at the end of the takeaway, aproximately two feet back. The right arm flying wedge is completed and includes its precise amount of right wrist bend. At this position the amount of visual left wrist bend is only the result of a turned left hand at impact fix. This visual amount of bend should exist at the end of the backstroke. Attempting to flatten the left wrist to comply with visual flatness will affect the wedges.

Other End
 

Daryl's answer and Bucket's pictures are good!

The other extreme would be guys like Johnny Miller, Olazabal, and Pavin. Hogan is sometimes said to have a "weak grip"(non-TGM term), but I don't think it is quite like these guys.

Great post!

Gotta work now . . . but I'm on it! Pics to follow.

This is a great answer to something which i've been struggling with. My instructor is an advocate of your left hand being placed on the club how it "naturally" hangs - that leaves me with what would normally be called a strong grip and some left wrist bend at impact fix.

Incorrectly i've been trying to flatten the left wrist on the backstroke "to visually flat" - the result is that everything goes left because the clubface is way closed. Sounds like with this sort of grip it is better to just focus on keeping your right wrist bend constant and forget about the left.

Great post again, thanks

No luck on Pavin. I'm not sure that these "weak" grip guys or more accurately vertical or less turned tell you much. The 10-2-D guys are pretty much required to use Angled Hinging wouldn't you say. But the Vertical guys 10-2-B have Horizontal and Angled Hinging at their disposal. Fair wiell for time is long and fate is fickle.

Have You Hugged Your Left Wrist Today?
 

Bergsey,

Do not neglect the Left Wrist Action (Component #18 ). As Clubhead Control, its perpendicular Cocking and Uncocking and rotational Swiveling are too important to ignore.

Nor should you neglect the [Left Wrist] Hinge Action (Component #10) and its Clubface Control, Learning to hold the Left Wrist vertical to each of the three Basic Planes (Horizontal, Angled and Vertical) through Impact is mandatory.

The Right Wrist, if it moves at all, moves in accordance with the Left, not vice versa.

Why is LWristAction ClubHEAD control Lynn?

I can understanding with the cocking/uncocking......that's a Vertical motion.....i.e. that makes the clubHEAD go up/down....

But Swivelling is rotational...

Bergsey,

When HK uses the phrase "flat left wrist", in most cases he is referring to a "geometrically flat left wrist" which is what creates the left arm flying wedge. There are other ways to "proof" the left arm flying wedge. Another way is to use the dowel. If your entire left arm and clubshaft lie flat against the dowel (inside of arm and right side of shaft), then your left wrist is geometrically flat. This is a more accurate method than the bent right wrist method.

I'm not a teacher but I don't think that when you hit a ball left of target it is caused by the over-flattening or arching of the left wrist. You must be pulling the shots. If you arched your left wrist (geometrically or visually), then you will throw the swingle out of alignment with the handle (you twisted (bent) the wedges). This causes the late, hooded and open clubface which would send the ball out lower and then fade off right. You must make sure that you DO NOT cock or un-cock the right wrist (must see Yoda Video).

The surprising truth about swinging (and only for non-manipulative swingers) is that your left hand can be turned 10 degrees weak or strong and your clubface will still align and provide straight-away ball flight if your wedges remain solid (Flat left wrist and bent right wrist). The left hand for swingers doesn’t align the clubface, but the flat left wrist does. Centrifugal force aligns the face (centrifugal force pulls the left arm and clubshaft in-line) for swingers and Horizontal Hinging is the preferred face rotation throughout impact.

HK wants swingers to use Strong Single Action Grip (turned left hand) because it puts the left thumb directly behind the club shaft aiming down the angle of approach and in line with the #3 pressure point. HK designed this grip to do that. He didn’t say "left or Right" this degree or that, he said exactly where to place and turn your hand if you want to use this grip. He is also saying that you can use weak single action if you want. It just won't have the strong impact deceleration prevention that the strong single action grip has.

(third paragraph edited, oops)

Awesome post! You ain't a teacher but you should be!

[quote=Daryl]Bergsey,
I'm not a teacher but I don't think that when you hit a ball left of target it is caused by the over-flattening or arching of the left wrist. You must be pulling the shots. If you arched your left wrist (geometrically or visually), then you will throw the swingle out of alignment with the handle (you twisted (bent) the wedges). This causes the late, hooded and open clubface which would send the ball out lower and then fade off right. You must make sure that you DO NOT cock or un-cock the right wrist (must see Yoda Video).
/QUOTE]

Thanks for the replies Yoda and Daryl.

For the last couple of weeks I've been working on acquired motion pitch shots with a lob wedge. Everything is going consistently straight left (with no draw or fade spin) of target probably 2 -3m on a 50m shot. The clubface is setup at impact fix a few degress open to the target line.

I was thinking it must be a slight over the top move, however i ruled this out by placing a 4 x 2 piece of timber outside of the ball so that if i was coming OTT i would hit the timber first. I'm definately not hitting the timber so i'm (if i'm correct) coming at it from the inside..... almost nailed this as well as all the divots start just after the ball and point pretty much slightly right of the target

Everything's great except for the ball going left!

The only thing i have noticed is what i'd mentioned before, sometimes on the backstroke i feel like the the left wrist is rolling "closed" i.e. knuckles more towards the ground and closing the clubface - this gives me more of a visually flat left wrist at the top but i can see the clubface more closed

Thanks

PS sorry to hijack this thread!

Hmm,

When in doubt, yell for Yoda.

Face
 

[quote=bergsey].................................................. ...........
IF THE FACE IS CLOSED ENOUGH AT THE IMPACT INTERVAL THE BALL WILL REACT SOMEWHAT AS A PULL, EVEN FROM AN INSIDE APPROACH,,,i.e. if the OUTSIDE of the ball is contacted at IMPACT. Sometimes the ball goes left so quickly, that when the EYE picks it up it is already left... so the person actually thinks he is OVER-THE-TOP, but is not.

There may be some other things going on also, but we used to see this sometimes at one place I worked.