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Analysis
I enjoyed the G.S.E.D. analysis(Mr. Hart) of the Peter Croker system.
I think it would be interesting and educational to have the same type of G.S.E.D. analysis of say... Natural Golf, Gravity Golf, Jimmy Ballard Golf, and maybe a standard Leadbetter Golf swing. |
The Biter Gets Bit!
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Start with Jimmy's stuff, and I'll chime in. :salut: |
Anyone willing to have a look at the Gary Edwin swing?
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Gravity Golf - the ultimate float loading swing, in balance, with pivot control and a fairly steep plane angle.
Learn right hand and left hand. The 'swinging force', well described. |
Ballard
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BALLARD GRIP TYPE-- Weak Single Action- says his grip preference is modeled after Ben Hogan's grip STROKE BASIC-- Most likely PITCH, but with the RIGHT SIDED EMPHASIS, could also use PUNCH. STROKE VARIATION-- 1-2-3 or Four Barrel. Jimmy does emphasize the #4 Connection, but it is loaded at address, and does not appear to unload, so it may not be a very effective #4 Accumulator. PLANE LINE-- SQUARE-SQUARE PLANE ANGLE-- Not certain about this one, but probably the TURNING SHOULDER PLANE(1st Description) Jimmy wants the elbows to stay pointing down throughout the swing. ADDRESS-- Standard HINGE ACTION-- Dual Horizontal, or Angled PRESSURE POINT COMBINATION-- Probably 1-3, but some of Jimmy's people are probably Swinging, so maybe a 2-3 for them. PIVOT--Standard SHOULDER TURN-- Rotated HIP TURN-- A Variation of Slide Hip Turn... especially on the Backstroke HIP ACTION-- Standard KNEE ACTION-- Right Anchor FOOT ACTION-- Flat Left LEFT WRIST ACTION-- Single Wrist Takeaway, but Jimmy likes a Double Action Left Wrist at the Top LAG LOADING-- Drive... in most cases. Some, however, could be "firing the right side," and this is actually activating the #4 Accumulator, so these people may be Swinging. THROW-- Right Arm or Right Shoulder He says to "fire the right side." POWER PACKAGE ASSEMBLY-- Probably A, B, or C Top, Side or End(Mr. Yoda, what do you think here?) POWER PACKAGE LOADING-- Random, but could be Full Sweep POWER PACKAGE DELIVERY-- Straight Line POWER PACKAGE RELEASE-- Any of the Sweep Releases Jimmy does not like people to "DRAG the handle." There may be actually some "X" Classifications with Mr. Ballard. One of the interesting things with his technique, is that it could probably actually be Hitting or Swinging, depending on how each player "fires his right side." |
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For trigger type, I believe Ballard is using Homer's combination of "Shoulder Turn Throw" and "Wrist Throw"....not a right arm throw....Ballard appears to be firing the right hip and shoulder not the right arm (arms are passive)...it's a swing with transfer of momentum with the above trigger combination... Hip Action - I believe it's standard. Plane Angle Variation - Double Shift. Deliver Path - Top Arc and Angled Line. Lag Loading - combination of drag and downstroke loading. DG |
Leadbetter Stroke pattern - Based on drawn sequence and my understanding of what he teaches based on his book 'the golf swing'...
1 Grip-Basic - Overlap 2 Grip type - hmmm its kinda closish to a 10-2-B but not quite 3 Stroke-Basic - Pitch 4 Stroke-Variation - Triple Barrel 5 Plane Line - Square Square 6 Plane Angle-Basic - X classification - nearest turned shoulder plane.... 7 Plane Angle-Variation - X classification - nearest variation double shift... 8 Fix - does he know about fix? 9 Address - Standard 10 Hinge Action - Angled 11 PP combo - should be triple 2/3/4 12 Pivot - Standard 13 Shoulder Turn - Rotated 14 Hip Turn - Standard 15 Hip Action - Standard 16 Knee Action - Right Anchor 17 Foot Action - Flat Left 18 Left Wrist Action - Standard 19 Lag Loading - Drag 20 Trigger Type - Wrist throw 21 Power Package Assembly Point - End 22 Power Package Loading Action - Full Sweep 23 Power Package Delivery Path - Angled Line 24 Power Package Release - Random Sweep Might not be completely right... |
Plane angle - Variation
Do you think the term "plane shift" is apt when what most /all people do ( including Leadbetter - hence your X classification) is a "plane drift"?
Plane angle can readily be defined at 4 points in all swings. 1. Address 2. Left arm horizontal to ground 3. Top/end of backstroke 4. Impact plus maybe Follow through/ both arms straight. Most golfers ( I would argue all golfers) drift planes between these positions. During drift the butt/end of club rarely points at target line unless the drift happens rapidly around clubshaft horizontal ( and therefore ideally parallel to plane line). Leadbetter people basically are double shifters - categorised by their address / impact location and top/end of backstroke positions. They may drift a bit more than others off TGM plane at left arm horizontal but 90 % of people drift not shift! |
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Because the club is always on this plane, one end points at the line or is parallel to it, it is the whole entire club maintaining a straight line relationship to the plane line. Even when the plane shifts because the plane rotates around the impact point plane line, you are still either pointing to the plane line or are parallel. Going from one plane angle to another does not mean you go offplane as you travel between them. Now, maybe I don't appreciate the genious of Leadbetter:rolleyes:, but to me his procedure as described and depicted is basically offplane on both the backstroke and downstroke. There can be no downplane force directly towards the plane line, on a plane, any plane, when he believes what he does esp in the downstroke with his parallel lines (club pointing outwards beyond the plane line). He basically tries to get golfers to get the clubhead traveling in a big warped circle....although the good golfers he teaches don't do this.... That is why I listed as X classification with the nearest geometrically correct variation being double shift.... |
How many "TGM shifters" truly have their tip/butt ends really pointing at a single plane line during the shift?
Unless it happens near instantaneously around club horizontal to the ground/parallel to plane line then a shift is almost always off plane until it re-establishes a pointing-at-the-plane-line position. That is what I mean by drift - a gradual off plane movement which is needed to re-establish on plane shaft/sweetspot plane after a shift. |
Plane
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I think I understand what you are saying about PLANE DRIFT. Some do seem to do as you describe. An extreme example of this, I believe, would be the PLANE philosophy of Don Trahan, known as THE SWING SURGEON. He wants the butt of the club to point at the LINE YOUR TOES ARE ON, throughout the BACKSWING, and most of the DOWNSWING. His son, D.J. Trahan, on the P.G.A. Tour, does appear to do something like this. He teaches a variation of a SWINGING PROCEDURE, and some of his students do very well. His technique is supposed to be easier on the back. |
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If we are talking about the club being on plane, I would have expected the definition points, a more universal set, would be the club, not the left arm.... |
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Infact stopping at any point on the backstroke or downstroke the club should be on a plane. Predefined points is position golf, geometrical alignments is alignment golf. Interestingly leadbetters procedure is an underplane shoulder turn takeaway which then shifts to another steeper offplane plane that also passes between through two onplane planes at parallel...can't see the logic myself :confused1. Now on the downstroke he wants you to shift from that offplane plane to another offplane plane parallel above the hands only plane before getting to the elbow plane... :rolleyes: ok then..... I like what Moe Norman said about him "artificial strokes for artificial folks"....:laughing1 |
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Have heard of the son but not the father. What I am saying is that all players are on plane at address(plane angle usually hands or elbow), most good players are on a different plane angle at end ( TSP or squared shoulder) therefore there has been a plane angle variation. I know TGM says that ideally club remains on plane even during shift but i basically wonder how many really do achieve this on the backstroke... i think some get very close, most will be less precise. I used the term "drift" to describe those that meander off plane during most of backswing ( these would be all club-pointing-at-toe-line people etc). I do not mean to suggest that ,as far as TGM swing ideal is concerned, "shift" is wrong. Just that most swings go off plane sometimes in backstroke and still get on a plane angle at top/end. The left arm horizontal (artificial as it is and I take all Martee and Matthew's points on board) catches most people "mid drift" or as they say "off plane - double shift x classification). Not making too much out of it, just putting out thoughts... |
I've said it many times, but I think all the talk of 'plane' is lacking the proper perspective
The HANDS The plane is defined by the hands and the sweetspot What Trahan advocates is based on this I would say. A steep plane angle of the path of the hands. The club follows what the hands tell it, so monitor the plane of the hands (not the same as the 'hands only' plane in TGM) |
Actuality
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Don Trahan actually wants the laser device that shines out of the butt of the club to point to the line the toes are on... throughout the backswing, and most of the downswing. He thinks it is incorrect to point at the baseline, or sweetspot plane. Now... I know there are people that play very well that do either of these, and those that are in between. I don't have the capability, but why don't we put some pictures up of a variety of players, and see what they are doing here. Camera angle of course, may make some difference here. |
Analysis
Maybe someone that knows... can post the Mr.Hank Haney pattern?
So far I think we have Mr. Jimmy Ballard, and Mr. David Leadbetter attempted. |
Wouldn't your hands have to be touching your body for the laser to even point to the toe line before you ever swing. The shaft would have to be a putter angle. I have read his book and seen him on the golf channel and basically as I understood the swing is was a very upright swing with width and a houlder turn of about 75 degrees and he wanted the swing to be no longer than a 3/4 swing. His son goes farther than what he teaches and he states on the golf channel he constantlly wants the swing shorter. The theory is you will always get good contact and you will only lose a small distance.
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Trahan
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With his swing you first go to the 1st parallel... in the backswing(shaft parallel to the plane line), then you go very vertical with the arms(butt of club pointing to the toe line). About 70 degree shoulder turn. He does like a flat left wrist. He says his technique is easier on the back... because of less shoulder turn. |
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For a guy who uses 10-6-D..this reference can be very useful... |
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