Teaching from the 7th Edition
 

Sorry if this analysis bugs anyone, I'm just trying to understand why Tomasello's teaching was different...why he took the teaching/playing path he took...in the 1991 interview, Tommy seems pretty committed to the idea of using the right arm for swinging and I'm not talking about leading with the hips and using the right arm for thrust at release...

I believe one of the reasons Tomasello's teaching approach is different from the other AI's is....it appears that Tommy had been teaching from the 7th edition (notes) since Homer's passing. The other AI's were working from editions 1 through 6 or just the 6th (just a theory based the information I have). I'm under the impression that Tom had a copy of Homer's final notes then (1983) and was going to put together the 7th edition. To make the Tomasello connection, read the 7th edition's 10-3-K and 10-3-D...then read the paragraph at the top of 12-5-3...then watch Tomasello's "Chapter 5 on Power" from the Australia chapter series. If I'm wrong, then what does Homer mean in 12-5-3 in the last sentence where he says..."This stage is for the perfection of execution prior to Full Power". Prior to Full Power...what component change and/or addition takes place that takes one to FULL POWER. I believe Tomasello explains it in the Power video (from less than full power to FULL POWER) and the addition is in 10-3-K and 10-3-D...Tomasello taught it that way...I believe it is the true Blue Print for TGM and the 7th edition. It appears that Homer's book comes full circle as it was originally presented...a right arm approach to the game.

12-1-0 and 12-2-0 are less than full power patterns, a sort entrance way into TGM.

Then read the July 1991 Tomasello Golf Illustrated interview...

How could Tomasello be a GSED and come up with the comments like...."All that stuff about leading with downswing with a lateral move of the lower body, driving the hips and legs toward the target to retain power---it's all terribly wrong! It seems to be what's happening in the most efficient, centrifugal-force swing."

Then Tomasello goes on to say..."The only agility needed by the player is to be able to turn the hips--to pivot around a fixed point--and to lever and un-lever the right forearm. The faster you can make these two movements, the greater the centrifugal force you'll build up and the farther you'll hit the ball".

I believe in the July interview Tomasello went beyond 12-2-0/12-5-3 combination and presented the Full Power version!!! It wouldn't surprise me that Tomasello was working with Homer on the idea of Full Power up until Homer's passing.

DG

Just recently on another forum I made a post, only to discover that it had taken on a life of its own and became its own thread. Of which there were few initially that agreed or even thought I knew anything of TGM. Well here I go again, guess banging my head against a concrete wall must feel good cause I keep doing it.

Why is it that everyone seems to think that Authorized Instructors of The Golfing Machine are teaching The Golfing Machine? What is there to teach? Where is this illusive G.O.L.F stroke of TGM that everyone seems to be in search of? Why is it that it is asked who on the tour has a TGM swing?

To be honest, this makes me wonder where Homer went wrong. I thought he was pretty clear on
a. What TGM was, a catalog of the 24 components of the golf stroke.
b. AIs were created to assist golfer in learning 'the golfer own golf stroke', not 'The Way'.
c. TGM in total was not somethine that the golfer needed to learn, but only the components for the golfer's golf stroke. It is the AI that needs to understand the components and there variations.
d. It seem to me that Homer subscribed to the theory that the latest version of TGM is what should be used, else why would he have published updates? Did some stuff get left on the floor, yeah, but between version how much of that stuff that dropped to the floor ever reappeared again? Evidently Homer didn't feel it was needed in most cases.
e. Why do people continue to say it is not about 'The Way' yet continue to look for the 'How To of the Golf Stroke'?

Now in all fairness, somewhere along the line Homer decided to assist the AIs, in chapter 12 he basically gave a currculum to be used as a basis for teaching as well as getting initial certification. He provide two sample patterns that addressed the two styles/types of golf storke, hitting and swinging. He identified components that were best suited to provide as I understand it an uncompensated golf stroke. There is a reference to the STAR SYSTEM TRIAD, a system ??; a method ??; which leads back to chapter 12.

News flash from the desk of Martee...

If you go to an AI and get taught TGM, then you no longer have a need to return to learn TGM. BUT you may need to return to learn 'Your Golf Stroke' if you havent been able to inform yourself, so that you understand it, so that you can excute it. Has the student become the Master? It would be extremely rare that getting taught TGM would be 100% match to either of the two sample patterns for a golfer unless that golfer was initially taught or learn that pattern.

Those who claim to teach TGM, I look to see if they are teaching golfers to get certified.

Those who base their teaching on the tenets of TGM, need not speak TGM to the student, they need only deliver sound golf instruction to the golfer. The effectiveness of insturction is another issue that defines the success the instructor and golfer will enjoy.

IMO, all thos GSEDs, GSEMs and GSEBs that instruct can choose to teach a method(s) that they have adopted and developed or they are merely applying their knowledge to make adjustments to the golfer's golf stroke. Does that mean they are Teaching TGM? IMO NO. Have they incorporated TGM into their knowledge/skills/practices to Teach golf, Yes.

Homer was hoping, expecting AI to take TGM and apply in practically and extend it throughout their instruction, thus the golfers getting the correct information, developing 'their own swing', not someone elses.

Regarding Tomasello's comments and approach, Doyles, etc. well those AIs are expressing themselves and what they believe and instruct...It just that they are not TEACHING TGM.

As usual, Martee, a very thoughtful post. Was the post you referred to made on FGI? I would be interested in reading the thread. I haven't been over there in a year or two.

Teaching from the 7th....
 

The point of my post is to try and understand Tomasello's teaching approach and how it relates to the new info in the 7th edition. I don't want this tread to turn into a debate about AI teaching styles...I would like to see the new addition of the term FULL POWER and my question about the paragraph in 12-5-3 debated.

In Ben Doyle's foreward...in the second to Last paragraph Ben mentions "One of the Nation's most highly regarded teachers told me in 1973 that I was "ten years ahead us." My point is...by having the 7th edition notes did Tomasello have an insight to Homer's final analysis that others did not...by 1991 was Tomasello "eight years ahead us."

Golf Illustrated contacted Tom Tomasello to do an interview about TGM...I would have to believe GI contacted Tommy because he was getting good results with his students. Bottom line. Can we trace this to a 7th edition influence years before its release.

So, what's the problem with developing a MY WAY approach from TGM...there could be several excellent MY WAY programs developed from TGM...so WHAT. The bottom line is developing a set of compatable components per a hitting or swinging stroke pattern...

I believe Tomasello was developing a highly integrated approach that would allow a player to use both hitting and swinging and the three hinge actions easily to creatively generate any shot...both powerful long shots and the most creative short shots. To me that's TGM in a nutshell (Creative freedom on the golf course).

DG

First there is nothing wrong with an AI developing 'My Way', in fact that what to some extent is all about. It does still require an AI to recognize that you can fix a swing as well as re-engineer it.

Regarding 12-5-3, what is meant by 'Full Power'? Is this in reference to how much effort a golfer applies, (poor wording), use only 80% vs 100% or is it as you seem to elude too, max out the golf stroke with 4 barrel stroke vs a double barrel stroke to triple barrel stroke?

Homer was of the opinion and states so that a very acceptable game can obtained with a two barrel stroke.

We each have our own pet likes and disalikes.

Nope not on FGI, it was another TGM related forum.

it was on brian manzella's site.....and martee, honestly,
you're debating semantics...and as usual on most of these sites - no ALL of these sites - the debate is circular and goes nowhere....

we all have read the preface to the book and have a general understanding of what mr. kelley was trying to accomplish.....now, does it really matter whether lynn, brian, or gregg mchatton are teaching the golfing machine or teaching their favorite patterns as learned from the golfing machine?

it's all semantics...it depends on each person's frame of reference and their TGM background....but in the end, is a student receiving instrution from an AI going to get better if this particular debate is settled? - i think not

i can sum up all the golfing machine forums, all the debates, all the agendas, all the motives, all the angst, all the infighting, all the backstabbing, and all the heartache by quoting TGM's foremost instrutor - Ben Doyle......

ME: "Ben, do you like so and so's (PGA TOUR PLAYER) swing?"
BEN: "Yes, of course."
ME: "Do you like this other so and so's (PGA TOUR PLAYER) swing?"
BEN: "I like them all."

That's reasonable, Michael.

Like I said, I don't want this to become an AI debate...I would really like to see the debate on the new terminology in the 7th edition. Especially when we have a GSED using the terminology on video.



DG

:sleepy: :crybaby: :salut: :laughing9

Martee Post
 

Dave,
Martee makes a good point- Full Power- is it written in the context of pressure point pressure?- or is it written in the context of maximum accumulators? - or a maximum combination of both? - Your view/feedback? In relation to your post?

Martee,
Good comments- Put in a little different way or clarifying your comments/perspective:
1) TGM is essentially the Star System Triad- the Three Imperatives applying the Three functions through the Three Stations - if you're having that as your essential guide to teaching students to lower their scores then you're teaching TGM.
2) If you're arguing, promoting other specific issues of the golf swing i.e. your golf swing essentials - then you've become too narrow and haven't grasped the nature of TGM- that it allows for all kinds of variations.
3) Or another way that you like to say it - is to drop the Star System Triad as the starting point and only look at things below it or something specific. That's the perspective that makes your point clear- that if you're teaching TGM then you're teaching someone the book, otherwise in regards to teaching TGM to students in regards to working on improving their swing- there is no TGM way- it's wide open - that is under the Star System Triad.

Except on the basis of mechanical advantage, efficient force.
By the definitions in physics and geometry, there is a 'most efficient' application of force.

The student, any given student, is seeking their most efficent motion, and the concepts behind that motion are always based on 'laws'. We create all kinds of machines based on these laws, and golfing machines should be based on those laws. The catalog of TGM does present a wide array of options for compliance with those laws.

Perhaps no pattern may really be considered 'the' best, but many patterns may be considered 'equally efficient'.

All of that said.. to DG's reason for starting this thread -

DG - What, in your view, makes the new changes a more efficient application of force? Is that difference most clearly a change in geometry, physics, or anatomy of the pattern?

Well said
 

Well said EdZ!:)

Mike/Martee,

Appreciate your comments...

My perspective has to come from Tomasello...I believe some think Tomasello strayed from the true teachings of TGM...with the 7th edition information, I believe Tommy was really teaching from the book the way it's presented in the 7th edition. Tommy was in contact with Homer up until the end, in fact, I believe Tommy was the one who arranged Homer's speaking engagment in front of the PGA the day he passed away. I guess some of you know that Homer passed away in Tomasello's arms.

I believe Tom taught 12-2-0 the way that it's written as a vehicle to understand the pivot in a swinging action. Tommy definitely followed building the swing in stages per 12-5-0...on cassette tape from my 1993 lessons with Tomasello on the driving range at Deer Track...Tommy had me start the downswing by triggering the downswing with the right forearm then generating the release with pivot thrust by way of the left hip (a pulling action of the left hip, review the Tomasello chapter series for left hip references). With the 7th edition comments in 12-5-3...for me, it makes sense what Tomasello was doing...he was making me aware of the left hip prior to adding Full Power with the uncocking action of the right elbow through the throwing action of the right forearm. Why? Tommy didn't want the student to apply so much attention to the uncocking of the right forearm that they would lose track of their pivot condition by stopping their left hip from sliding at the beginning of the downstroke or quit their left hip action in the rotational phase of release. Once you had the feel for the pivot, to add Full Power, Tomasello added the uncocking action of the right elbow through the right forearm, the pivot now just responded to the uncocking of the right elbow through the magic of the right forearm.

I recommend watching the chapter 5 video in the Tomasello chapter series before responding to this post. It probably wouldn't hurt to read 10-3-K, 10-D-3, 12-5-3 and 7-3 too.

On the lesson tee with Tomasello, I asked Tommy where in the book does it say, start the downswing with the right forearm (trust me, at the time I was as curious about this as many of you are), Tomasello's response, 7-3. Second comment from Tommy, The MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM.

DG

"Selling the system"
 

Dave,
See my comments above in bold- for what their worth- not necessary to respond. The first comment in bold above is just a comment on the name of my post "Selling the System"- Homer knew that if "people" i.e. AI's, Students, himself, etc. were fanatically "Selling the System" it would hurt G.O.L.F.'s chances or delay its ultimate success- let them come to the system, if they are interested then help, answer, etc. but don't fanatically go out to convert everyone- it'll hurt the system, progress etc.

I think that advice is good advice- i.e. "you - Dave- will lose more people and have less people listening to you if everytime the topic of Tomasello comes up you "fanatically", "sell" the guy. Or repeatedly bring up a Golf Illustrated Article Interview. Just my opinion- but I offer it in a constructive way and one that I think would help you and Tom's legacy- at the same time I could be off base.

Finally, your comments on Tommy "following" the 7th edition- again- to me- I think you missed the point that Martee was pointing out. Tom taught the principles of TGM- any particular application for the lesson at the driving range might have all sorts of specific variations but you wouldn't want to lock yourself into any particular corner.

In the meantime, keep using your particular pattern as I know you've had some great success with it and the information that Tommy provided to you and others.

back on thread...
 

I think i see what you are saying. But 1-F still says (7th edition) that "you will save yourself much anguish by using the right hand just for sensing and controlling acceleration and the left hand just for sensing alignment".

10-3-K Bat ,if i remember correctly from 6th edition was all about right elbow replacing left shoulder as centre of swing - which is echoed in 1-f 7th - "it is always a left arm stroke unless the right elbow replaces the left shoulder as the centre of the clubhead arc (10-3-K)"

It would be interesting to see what Peter Croker has to say on the matter - he was heavily infulenced from what i have seen / read by Tommy when he visited Oz...

Mike,

I'm not looking for sympathy...I'm looking for the truth. Hmmmm...and Tommy taught PGA/LPGA tour pros and high level amateurs.

Sell the System is going to hurt TGM, you got to be frickin kidding me...I have a degree in Marketing from one of the top business schools in the country and I'm going to listen that...yikes. And look where the system is today....over 20 years behind....go tell Donald Trump not to sell a GREAT SYSTEM...Gee Donald, we have got this great product....but if we try to sell it too much it will hurt it. That does not make sense at all.

TGM IS A BEAUTIFUL SYSTEM...the system has so much potential to influence other things. It has for me. Homer was a great researcher...if what you say is true, Homer wasn't much of a marketer/salesman, I really hate saying that...I have much respect for Homer.

DG

Delaware Golf

I find that using the Tomasello approach tends to replace some pivot power (for lack of a better term) with more right arm power.

I am currently employing a double shift swing using a maximum trigger delay and i achieve my swing speed and effortless type power to a well-trained pivot.

I have played with the Tomasello approach and find that i don't use my pivot as actively. If i do impact becomes erractic. However if i don't use the body as much and use more right arm tommy's approach (as he teaches it in the video) works quite well imo.

My distance/swing speed is similar in both patterns. I just prefer my pattern over this one. Also, would you be willing to make copies of your Tomasello tapes/videos that are not posted on this site for a fee? I have PM'd you before about this with no response. I am truly interested in learning more about what Tommy had to say but am out of information.

Thank you

Tomasello
 

Tom believed that the left arm is the arm that is SWINGING, "BUT IT IS BEING SWUNG BY THE RIGHT ARM." He did not teach "the Bat." He believed the left shoulder is the center of the stroke.

He taught HITTING USING THE 10-2-D Grip, and SWINGING with the Strong Single Action.

He kept in contact with Mr. Kelley and had many phone conversations recorded between them. He was constantly learning, and did occasionally change the emphasis of what he taught.

He really believed in "the magic of the right forearm."

Jim,

Contact me again, I get quite a few emails and PMs. Sometimes, I lose track...

You're exactly right about increased accuracy as you allow the pivot to respond to the action of the right forearm. Great observation Jim...right on the money. I believe your accuracy would increase if you got rid of the double shift plane angle. Normally, the source of a double shift is a hip or shoulder takeaway instead of a right forearm takeaway. If you achieve a double shift through a right forearm takeaway you're trying to create a big shoulder turn with your shoulders (study 2-H)...just let the right forearm do the work and you will stay on the right path.

Tomasello used this method...going back it's right forearm and right hip (delayed hip action), right forearm takeaway and clear the right hip per 12-13-24, when the right hip stops you stop...downswing it's right forearm and left hip....downswing, the right forearm starts the downswing and you monitor the left hip, you don't want it to stop.

DG

Lagster,

Any reference I make to 10-3-K is from 7-19. I don't think Tomasello was trying to teach the bat either...I believe it's really a reference to right arm acceleration. However, I do believe Tommy was trying to teach Full Power swinging. Optimal distance and accuracy combined with the ability to integrated the hitting procedure easily to the game of golf effectively.


DG

constructive criticism
 

Dave, My comments above.

Turn people off who don't agree, most likely. Turn people off to a good thing or provide truthful results, highly unlikely.

Geez, shall we call Homer a fanatic. I think passion is the correct word. The term fanatic in this arena is a pot shot. :crybaby: I believe most of the golfers on this site are passionate about TGM... is that a bad thing. I can think of worse things....what to find some real fantics, turn on the nightly news.

DG

I will PM again, thanks!

I never mentioned anything about accuracy. If anything i was discussing more about pivot activity and swing speed. Also i am one of the straightest ballstrikers i know. However some of my students are getting there ;). But i practice a lot to trace a straight plane which is why i hit the ball so straight.


You are correct. I use what i call "the combo." I use a shoulder turn takeaway to initiate my swing however i'm still tracing a straight line and then once my swing becomes relatively parallel to the plane line i immediately employ a right forearm "type" takeaway to take me to the top of the turned shoulder plane. I personally do not believe the right forearm takeaway is a good option for swingers. When i hit i very much use a right forearm takeaway, but in swinging i feel it is too "mechanical" and not flowing enough. But that's just me :). Again i trace a straight plane line even with my double shift so i'm not worried about it.

Dave,
Good to see ya but you're killing me!

I think Mike was merely tryingto provide an objective viewpoint. In any marketing program, the measurement is (and always will be) return. In marketing, turning those on that don't agree is key, no? Mike was part of your return and you're killing him! :salut:

I have never known a fanatic that wasnt passionate. Point being (I think), Homer was driven.


Oh yeah - how's the game?

[quote=phillygolf]Dave,
Good to see ya but you're killing me!

I think Mike was merely tryingto provide an objective viewpoint. In any marketing program, the measurement is (and always will be) return. In marketing, turning those on that don't agree is key, no? Mike was part of your return and you're killing him! :salut:

I have never known a fanatic that wasnt passionate. Point being (I think), Homer was driven.



Oh yeah - how's the game?[/QUOTE



Hmmmm...what do you have here....the tag team of Patrick and Michael,

You guys really humor me (remember the truth prevails)..who called who? Send in the calvary DG is at again.

I say do the research, watch the Tomasello videos (especially the chapter series #5 on "Power" make that FULL POWER)/read the Tomasello interview and now read the 7th edition, see 10-3-K, 10-3-D, 12-5-3. I think you will make a few connections.

No, the measurement in any marketing program is market share and sales. Without good operations it doesn't matter what kind of marketing program you have...a company needs to keep it's expenses/costs down so it can generate a good/great return/profit margin.

A little golfing trivia (most appropriate for this situation) - Nicklaus use to watch Hogan practice, Hogan never watched Nicklaus practice. Didn't need to...


DG

Whoops....another one from the 7th Edition
 

Geeezzzz....here is another new entry into the 7th edition that sync's up nicely with the Tomasello July 1991 interview. And in the correct section of the book....Force Vectors.

GI: If the hands aren't doing anything, then what's swinging the club.

Tomasello: Here we get into the terminology that scares people. You swing the club via two "divergent force vectors." This simply means that two different forces are being combined. One force is moving the club upward and downward. A second force is moving the club outward, away from you. The upward and downward force is provided by a straight-up folding and unfolding of the right forearm from its address position. You simpy fold your right arm at the elbow to swing the club up. From there, you try to throw the clubhead into the ground by unfolding your right arm.


7th edition entry in 2-N-1.

B. The Primary Downward Force Vector is produced by straightening the right elbow--including the Uncocking of the Left Wrist.
Sync's up nicely with the Tomasello's interview description.

Again, I would suggest watching the Tomasello Letter Series for clarification.

Why was Tomasello misunderstood....HE WAS TEACHING FROM THE UNRELEASED 7TH EDITION.

DG

GSED and Right Arm Swinging
 

Recently communicated by email with a GSED who teaches Right Arm Swinging....actually teaches Left Arm and Right Arm Swinging and Right Arm Hitting.

It appears the validating comments for Right Arm Swinging are in 2-M-3....first paragraph.

"Unless Pivot Thrust actually drives #4 Accumulator through Impact, its assignment during that interval is more clearly defined if considered as delivery, guidance and support of the Power Package, because it may or may not have contributed anything but motion during Delivery. The Pattern of the Stroke being used designates where Thrust is to originate and that is completely the player's option."

DG