let's get a grip
 

:shock:

I am an e.m. with a couple of hundred hours spent studying TGM. One of my hardest items of study are the grips set forth in TGM. Manzella's grip as someone called it in an earlier post is the grip which I deem neutral or strong single action. Can the master of grip types come out of the closet.

I will offer my suggestion on grip, noting there are many other options each of which is its own discussion and resulting general pattern.

The simple answer is to understand impact, and how your hands best support the force involved. This must relate to how your body moves most naturally.

In basic terms, I would describe the relationship between left hand and right hand as / and | left and right respectively. The left hand is actually about 45 degrees into the right palm with the left thumb fitting in the 'thumb pocket' formed by pressing the right trigger into the right thumb, ala Hogan's 5 Lessons.

Thus PP#1 is "downplane" on the base of the left hand with the center of the right forearm "stump" as Lynn described previously.

PP3 (to the first joint in the forefinger) is flat, "onplane"

'if' you line up the left arm and club at address, the left wrist is flat and the right forearm is thrusting "downplane" - dragging the knuckles of the left hand Down - wide thin divots

It is called PP#1 for an important reason - that is "the" point of the triangle

Use extensor action and twist away and let the heavy club SWING

While you stay in balance and thrust downward, about 4 feet in front of the ball - both arms straight.

Rotate the hands around the "point", the rotation point

or

bend/arch across the "point", the mirror point - uppercut with the head of the hammer DOWNward with a bent right wrist

All while Supporting the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance

Balance, always - let the heavy club balance you - As Moe I'm certan would agree.

Feel it in your grip, the pressure points.

or

EdZ - Great post!

I've really figured out the importance of pp#1 lately: point of extensor action, point og thrust or point of rotation.

:roll:

Thanks for the post. I find a lot of good information there. I am more interested in a summary of 10-2 and a place to discuss the different items.

For example v/v/t seems to me to be a "neutral" grip. Neutral in the manner that when the left wrist is Flat and vertical the face of the club is not closed.

v/v/a has the left thumb and the #3 pressure on the aft of the shaft in an on plane location.

In my mind, which at times is cluttered, I view this grip as a "closed" grip. But obviously the way I am visualizing this grip type is not correct.

v/r/t has the left wrist vertical and the right wrist rolled on top of the shaft. This grip type requires left wristcock and right wrist bend.

I feel certain the left wrist cock and the right wrist bend will always be created through the bending of the right arm and the loading of the accumulators.

Hope this helps lead on a conversation.

:o

"With strong grips, this places the thrust of both the #1 and the #3 pressure points on plane so that the clubhead lag alignments are established and can be verified by the waggle and the forward press."

I was taught to go to impact fix. Then holding the back of the left arm level to the ground (making certain the left wrist is flat with the forearm), the right wrist will be bent and the shaft will be held out in front of you. From here the face can be checked. If the toe is up (taking into considerations of offset) the face is closed. If the toe is down the face is open. If the toe and the heel are level, it is square.

Duval has a shut face grip and uses an angled (leaning toward vertical) higne. Irwin has a square face grip and uses a horizontal hinge. Most of the great players (in my opinion) have used a neutral grip and horizontal hinge because of the hinges characteristics (closing with no layback.)

The seven grip types Mr. Kelley puts forth in 10-2-0 must have a use. As an instructor I change the grips of my better players so that a horizontal hinge can be employed. For others I do other things. However, I have never given anyone a 10-2-c, weak double action grip.

But Mr. Kelley says, "Don't hesitate to adjust you grip for better direction."

I understand 7-2 and the drill set forth in 6-b-3-0 but this is not unlocking the meaning of grip types.
------------------------------------------
THis brings me to something Mr. Chuck Evans has on his ebook. He is one hell of an instructor and knows his TGM. In his book he talks of placing the left hand on the club in its natural position. As it lays when your hand is simply hanging.

:? I just don't know. I will continue to incubate. Chime in if you want.

"In his book he talks of placing the left hand on the club in its natural position. As it lays when your hand is simply hanging."

This will give you the tradiitional strong grip which is found on most tour players. This allows maximum Left Wrist Cock, and facilitates squaring the clubface at Separation. This is contrary to the TGM recommended 10-2-B.

Hey Joe,

Just curious . . . I remember reading a good post from you on another forum about TGM not gaining acceptance due to the thumb placement recommended Aft. This may not be an accurate representation of what you said, but anyway . . .

My question is do you place your left thumb aft? with the gap? And why do you place it where you do?

Thanks man!

Richard

12pc,

Thumbprint at about 1:00 with thumb snugged up to hand and 3 knuckles showing. The entire thumbprint is on the shaft. Vs pointing approx at Right Shoulder. It allows the most LW cock and clubface control.

The problem I have with 10-2-B is the thumb gap and only the edge of the thumb against the shaft instead of the entire thumbprint. For me it's vague, non-golf like, imprecise, limits control, limits LW cock, and requires more Left Arm roll through Impact.

To my knowledge, few, if any, tour players in the modern era have used 10-2-B. Most on tour use the conventional strong grip, but that's not why I use it. I use it for the same reason they do - it's the best way I've found to hold a golf club. Some would argue that the best players use the standard grip ONLY because they were taught to use it. Don't believe it - they experiment to find what works best, and most end up with the conventional strong grip.

TGM's specification of 10-2-B for the basic Hitting and Swinging strokes, in itself, will insure that it won't accepted by the golfing establishment in it's entirety.

When using a strong grip/tour grip, how do you keep a FLW at the top? Do you use a twist /lift to accomplish this? I'm newer to TGM and have been looking at some pics of a more neutral TGM grip (Manzella's article on grip). I have been taking lessons with a pro who played on tour and played in several US Opens. One of the first things he did was adjust my grip to the conventional tour grip you mention. He has not mentioned wrist position at the top or impact yet. Just curious......

jd,

With the strong grip, the LW looks cupped when cocked. As a Swinger who uses the LW throw and a transition from cupped to arched, I couldn't care less whether it looks flat at the top. This transition from cupped to arched is effectively the LW bone outrunning the hands through Impact.

If, as customary, you chose to maintain the top of the Swing LW position to Impact, it's OK, because it IS flat, even though it may appear cupped with the strong grip. Just remember at Impact, the back of the Left Hand will be facing up out of the plane, rather than vertical to it as it would be with the neutral grip.

MJ

Hmmmm....interesting. I do find it easier to build lag for ME (right now) with the stronger/Tour grip and swinging with the left arm. But I have been fooling around with trying to hit with the right and a more neutral grip (a la Manzella). Well....like I said, TGM is all new to me :) I'm going for a lesson with a TGM instructor on Wednesday and I'll be curious to see what he has to say in general. Thanks for your time.

:D

Thanks mizuno Joe. Only one of the tour players I work with has a "strong grip" and he won a couple of weeks ago on the nationwide tour after "weakening" his grip.

I just don't see most of the tour players playing with strong grips. I see lots of FLW at the top and Faces which are "square" in their hands. I do see lots of horizontal hinges and that is where my grip questions come from.

An angled hinge is going to have the face laying back as it closes- so I push my long stuff and pull my short stuff. Vertical motion will have the face laying back and not closing. The horizontal hinge will control the trajectory and if the grip fits the direction as well.

Hinges and grips are a passion for me. Keep the questions and answers coming. Thanks again for sharing the knowledge.

Trolio

Will The Real VJ Please Stand Up?
 

VJ, as usual, is a study in understatement.

Just to clue everybody in, vj is none other than the true Boss of the Moss V.J. Trolio, a fine player and instructor; a student of TGM; and co-inventor of The Putting Arc, currently one of golfdom's hottest training aids. I had the privilege of meeting V.J. personally at the 2005 PGA Merchandise Show in Orlando and am proud to have him aboard this expeditionary vessel.

Thanks, V.J., for your passion for the Game; for your commitment to excellence; and for posting on our site! :D

And now, y'all: Go visit VJ's website at www.theputtingarc.com.

P.S. My favorite testimonial:

• "It made me over five million dollars - that's how I know it works."
  
  -- PGA Tour Multiple Winner

vj,

By strong, I'm not talking the Azinger or even Couples extreme, but rather the LW not vertical with the left hand turned somewhat on top of the grip so that the V points more or less at the Right Shoulder, and the left thumb not on top of the grip. The grip is underneath the left heel pad. And, the thumb is snugged up to hand.

I've seen few tour players with a grip that doesn't meet that definition of strong. One of that few is Nicklaus, who while showing 2.5 knuckles, has a slight gap between the thumb and hand. Perhaps you could tell us some on tour who have a vertical left hand/wrist.

:oops:
Thanks Mizuno Joe. I don't want you too think I am being rude. I am not. This last post clears a lot up for me.

Through video I feel sneed, hogan, sarazen (although his left thumb wasn't on the shaft) all played with the left hand more vertical on the shaft.

Doug Barron, Brent Geiberger, Chucky Three stix, and Els all play with grips turned more vertical I feel. It even seemed that Tiger played with a grip turned more vertical during his "killing spree" a couple of years ago.

Had a convesation with the Cajun Crusher (Rob Noel) last night. He is the reason I teach today and a great mentor, but don't tell him I said that. He explained the difference as the left hand being vertical to a horizontal plane and vertical to an angled plane.

He explained it this way, Take your left arm and extend it out in front of you. Your left hand should be vertical to a horizontal plane. Now move your LEFT arm to the RIGHT about thirty degrees. Drop your left arm. "It looks turned doesn't it," he said. "Yes," I agreed, but it wasn't.

So the hand can sit on the club with a pp1, pp3, and accumulator 1 all sitting on the aft of the shaft.

THE DIFFICULTY IN DECIPHERING COMPONENTS BY YOURSELF IS THE INDIVIDUALS OWN TAKE ON WHAT IS ACTUALLY MEANT. HAVING YOUR HAND TURNED "STRONG" IN MY MIND HAS THE LEFT THUMB SITTING COMPLETELY DOWN THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE SHAFT. THIS WOULD MEAN THE LEFT HAND WOULD NEED TO TURNED TO GET THERE.

See guys I can learn. It only took two weeks for me to understand. And yes, I did ride a short bus to school but ----- I am not hard headed.


Now then, why so many grips. What did MR. Kelley mean when he said you can change your grip any time for better directional control. What about the hinge? What about impact fix alignments? What about the swivel?

Thanks again for letting me hang out.

vj,

Sorry for using "strong" in a too liberal fashion - only Azinger and maybe a few others have a grip with the thumb on the back of the shaft. I would certainly never do that! Maybe "non-vertical" would be a better term. With a vertical left wrist and the thumb "snugged", the thumb is on top of the shaft and is linear to it. This restricts LW cock. By just rotating the Right Hand enough to get the base of the thumb pad off the top of the grip, you get maximum LW cocking potential. For me, it gives about 2.5 knuckles showing, which gives me about the same result as the so-called "neutral" grip obtained by letting the left arm hang at the side naturally and taking hold of the club.